Nelson Mandela: Hero or Villain?

Benny_Cake

BluE-WinG wrote: »

Common knowledge for Ex-Pat south africans such as myself.

In his autobiography "the long walk to Freedom" he casually admits "signing off" the 1983 Church Street bombing carried out by the ANC and killing 19 innocent people whilst injuring another 200.

That attack was carried out in response to the apartheid government's cross border raid on Lesotho (where many civilians were killed) and it's assassination of Ruth First in Maputo. The attack would have been authorised by Oliver Tambo (as ANC president), and MK chief of staff Joe Slovo. Mandela, who was in Pollsmoor prison at the time probably personally supported the attack, which was against a military target. It was certainly carried out with a reckless disregard for civilian lives, detonating as it did at rush hour.

Was just curious about the petrol bombings of white schools, as it's the first I've heard of it. I'd expect that there would be some source documenting these attacks, surely?

SuperGrover

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nOeZgZfKuI

Who Are The Terrorists?

--Kaiser--

Mandela is seen as a saint because people are generally ignorant of South African history. He set up the militant wing of the ANC, which started off only bombing empty buildings, but progressed to all out terror attacks. Most of these where while Mandela was in jail but he admitted to 'signing off' the Church St bombing, which killed dozens of people and injured thousands. The ANC also had a charming punishment for it's opponents called necklacing, where a petrol filled tyre was set alight around someone's neck. He also refused a deal for early release in return to relinquishing the use of violence for political gain.

The fact that the ANC were (rightly) seen as a terrorist organisation probably slowed down the elimination of Apartheid as most powerful countries (USA and Britain, for example) opposed them on this general principle

Benny_Cake

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

He also refused a deal for early release in return to relinquishing the use of violence for political gain.

That would have been political suicide and would have sold his friends down the river, gifting the regime a propaganda coup. Don't forget that the State was avidly pursuing violence for political gain at the time, including torture and bombings (see the bombing of the South African Council of Churches building in 1988).

It was a nonviolent struggle for freedom which unfortunately descended into violence as the state cut off all avenues for nonviolent resistance. Mandela wrote that the oppressor defines the nature of the struggle and he was correct. He was no saint but given what South Africa could have become.. I'd say he's a hero.

Nodin

BluE-WinG wrote: »

Common knowledge for Ex-Pat south africans such as myself.
...............

Knowledge so common you can't provide a source for it?

kaiser wrote:

He set up the militant wing of the ANC, which started off only bombing empty
buildings, but progressed to all out terror attacks

...against one of the more evil regimes of the 20th century. Fair play to him.

kaiser wrote:

The fact that the ANC were (rightly) seen as a terrorist organisation probably slowed down the elimination of Apartheid as most powerful countries (USA and Britain, for example) opposed them on this general principle

Did that notion come to you after a strange and confused dream?

This would be the same US that supported the Contras, the death squads all over Latin America? You are aware that the SA Government practiced assassination and torture?

FTA69

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Yes. Remarkable. Which is why white South Africa loves him as much as black South Africa.

Do they? Most white South Africans I've discussed politics with haven't had a very high opinion of him at all. In fact the only ones I've heard speak highly of him were members of the ANC-affiliated Communist Party. I think your notion that white South Africans have a mass "love" for Mandela is flawed to say the least.

Regarding the man himself, if there were to be any criticism of the man himself it should concern the fact that the ANC simply created a new power structure which is governed by a black economic elite while the average South African continues to live in dire poverty. The resources of South Africa weren't nationalised to any meaningful degree. In short, the transition there could have achieved a lot more but instead it seems a select few of the black community managed to scamper up the ladder and pull it up after them.

However, to criticise the man for participating in the anti-apartheid struggle is complete and utter nonsense. The moral posturing over an armed struggle against a racist, undemocratic and violent system is equally absurd. When confronted with a militaristic, neo-fascist state that unashamedly uses violence to stay in power then often armed struggle is the only avenue of action left.

It was the South African regime's continuous refusal to countenance any sort of democratic transition and their use of mass violence which is what led to MK being formed. And as bad as many of their lot is now in SA, they got off relatively lightly compared to the whites in places like Haiti or Zimbabwe.

FTA69

FTA69 wrote: »

Regarding the man himself, if there were to be any criticism of the man himself it should concern the fact that the ANC simply created a new power structure which is governed by a black economic elite while the average South African continues to live in dire poverty. The resources of South Africa weren't nationalised to any meaningful degree. In short, the transition there could have achieved a lot more but instead it seems a select few of the black community managed to scamper up the ladder and pull it up after them.

Exactly! The white overlords were replaced with black overlords. Protesters have been gunned down, apartheid style, very recently. Mandela has supported this man through thick and thin as the country goes down the tubes.

Mandela did some amazing things, but to make out like he's some sort of infallible God who can only do the right thing, because he didn't go around killing every white person he saw post 1994, is just WRONG.

FTA69

The ANC as far as I'm concerned are no longer a meaningful force for change in South Africa, like many other national liberation movements they've simply become another vehicle for the elite; albeit an elite with predominantly black skin. The notion of Cyril Ramaphosa being a trade union leader for miners and now sitting on a mining board earning millions sums it up neatly for me.

OCorcrainn

Nelson Mandela is a hero and icon to the oppressed people across the world, a true revolutionary. A testament to the human spirit.

I remember this song when it came out from our own Dolores Keane,it is amazing how much it resonates.

Nodin

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Nelson Mandela is a hero and icon to the oppressed people across the world, a true revolutionary. A testament to the human spirit.


I remember this song when it came out from our own Dolores Keane,it is amazing how much it resonates.

Reading some of the comments here, you could swear he was up against some regime of misunderstood hippies.

FTA69

Nodin wrote: »

Reading some of the comments here, you could swear he was up against some regime of misunderstood hippies.

It's gas like. The sort of people whinging and moaning about armed struggle as being "terrorism" and inherently wrong often either ignore or try and justify state terrorism as being somehow morally superior. We saw these type of eejits in Ireland who would foam at the mouth over IRA actions while trying to gloss over or justify state violence dished out by the RUC or the British Army.

People who condemn armed struggle against the apartheid governments are either misguided pacifists at best or rank hypocrites at worst.

FTA69

FTA69 wrote: »

It's gas like. The sort of people whinging and moaning about armed struggle as being "terrorism" and inherently wrong often either ignore or try and justify state terrorism as being somehow morally superior. We saw these type of eejits in Ireland who would foam at the mouth over IRA actions while trying to gloss over or justify state violence dished out by the RUC or the British Army.

People who condemn armed struggle against the apartheid governments are either misguided pacifists at best or rank hypocrites at worst.

And for those of us who haven't even mentioned his apartheid era activities in our criticisms of him?

FTA69

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

And for those of us who haven't even mentioned his apartheid era activities in our criticisms of him?

I don't know what you mean to be honest. My comments refer to those who automatically condemn him for engaging in "terrorism" while blatantly ignoring the inherently violent and reactionary nature of what he was up against.

Stinicker

He was a terrorist and the transition away from White control destroyed South Africa and many people be-little white south africans as racists but if the shoe was on the other foot you'd quickly see where they were coming from. The plain and simple truth is that South Africa and the other former colonies were far better off under White control and colonisation is not the cause of Africa's problems but rather the solution to them.

Africa is too corrupt to be allowed rule itself and a system of governance from Europe with control and law and order is what is needed. There is 1 billion potential consumers and vast untapped natural resources being wasted on this continent because of corruption and its peoples inability to rule themselves and develop markets. The vast plains of land in Africa are just sitting idle with wild animals when they should put into Agricultural production, vast forests unfelled and Petroleum riches and minerals all unexploited.

The day the colonisers left Africa was a bad one for its development, However the Chinese are now developing their own business interests there in truly imperial fashion just grab and run without any investment into the countries or development there. However it is okay for the Chinese to play empire but not Europeans anymore.

Duggys Housemate

Stinicker wrote: »

He was a terrorist and the transition away from White control destroyed South Africa and many people be-little white south africans as racists but if the shoe was on the other foot you'd quickly see where they were coming from. The plain and simple truth is that South Africa and the other former colonies were far better off under White control and colonisation is not the cause of Africa's problems but rather the solution to them.

Africa is too corrupt to be allowed rule itself and a system of governance from Europe with control and law and order is what is needed. There is 1 billion potential consumers and vast untapped natural resources being wasted on this continent because of corruption and its peoples inability to rule themselves and develop markets. The vast plains of land in Africa are just sitting idle with wild animals when they should put into Agricultural production, vast forests unfelled and Petroleum riches and minerals all unexploited.

The day the colonisers left Africa was a bad one for its development, However the Chinese are now developing their own business interests there in truly imperial fashion just grab and run without any investment into the countries or development there. However it is okay for the Chinese to play empire but not Europeans anymore.

At present rates of growth Africa will be richer than Europe in the future.

--Kaiser--

FTA69 wrote: »

It's gas like. The sort of people whinging and moaning about armed struggle as being "terrorism" and inherently wrong often either ignore or try and justify state terrorism as being somehow morally superior. We saw these type of eejits in Ireland who would foam at the mouth over IRA actions while trying to gloss over or justify state violence dished out by the RUC or the British Army.

People who condemn armed struggle against the apartheid governments are either misguided pacifists at best or rank hypocrites at worst.

Logic fail. Not supporting terrorist activities that involve the death of innocent and blameless civilians does not mean supporting the government they were opposing. There's a difference between asymmetric warfare against the armed soldiers and policemen of a government, and the cowardly, indiscriminate murder of innocent, unarmed and uninvolved people. I wonder do you people support all 'freedom fighters' or just the popular ones? ETA? The IRA? Al Qaeda?

Stinicker

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

At present rates of growth Africa will be richer than Europe in the future.

unlikely, however you will have the political corrupt elite of Africa with the wealth whilst the ordinary african lives on a dollar a day. There is no real poor people in Western Europe and whilst Africa is growing it will never progress until there is control of the political system and due to corruption and a lack of education amongst the general populace this won't happen.

Dostoevsky

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

At present rates of growth Africa will be richer than Europe in the future.

And China, that country which for commercial reasons can never be criticised by the "West", will own that wealth.

But shhhh. And definitely don't mention Tibet, ever.

Nodin

Stinicker wrote: »

He was a terrorist and (....)Chinese to play empire but not Europeans anymore.

Patronising, racist imperilastic bollocks.

Dostoevsky

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I wonder do you people support all 'freedom fighters' or just the popular ones? ETA? The IRA? Al Qaeda?

Al Qaeda is "popular"? hehe.

Nodin

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Logic fail. Not supporting terrorist activities that involve the death of innocent and blameless civilians does not mean supporting the government they were opposing. There's a difference between asymmetric warfare against the armed soldiers and policemen of a government, and the cowardly, indiscriminate murder of innocent, unarmed and uninvolved people

...do you actually have a bogs notion how wars are fought? For that matter, do you have any clue as to the nature of the apartheid regime?

Stinicker

Nodin wrote: »

Patronising, racist imperilastic bollocks.

I don't disrespect or belittle your opinions so I'd appreciate it if you'd extend the same common courtesy.

Nodin

Stinicker wrote: »

I don't disrespect or belittle your opinions so I'd appreciate it if you'd extend the same common courtesy.

Your opinion in this instance doesn't deserve respect.

Dostoevsky

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Logic fail. Not supporting terrorist activities that involve the death of innocent and blameless civilians does not mean supporting the government they were opposing.

In a war, it does, particularly when there would be no "terrorism" without that "government" claiming ownership of part of a country beyond its own. It would be pretty hard to criticise the native Irish reaction to British occupation and avoid criticising the cause of that reaction. Some easily-led Irish people, who no doubt read the Sunday Independent, manage it however. Eoghan Harris, John Bruton, Ruth Dudley-Edwards and Brian Hayes, for instance.

uch

Hitchens wrote: »

was he ever shot by Bang Bang? :P

..

FTA69

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Not supporting terrorist activities that involve the death of innocent and blameless civilians does not mean supporting the government they were opposing. There's a difference between asymmetric warfare against the armed soldiers and policemen of a government, and the cowardly, indiscriminate murder of innocent, unarmed and uninvolved people.

Unfortunately any war prosecuted is going to involve civilian death. By your logic any armed struggle in human history could be continued "terrorism" as they pretty much always involved the loss of innocent lives. There is no such thing as a "clean" war and in the grand scheme of things the ANC campaign was pretty tame in comparison to some other ones.

daddyorchips

newmug wrote: »

Unbelievable! Only on Boards.ie! First DeValera was morphed into the worst man in Irelands history, then Mother Teresa was slated as a sadist, then Stalinist Communism was somehow excused, and now Nelson Mandela was a bad guy? How can anyone think he was a villain? Only on Boards.ie, where you'll find the largest collection of clowns in one place on the Irish-based internet. Only on Boards!

mother Theresa was a big c U next Tuesday though

Fratton Fred

FTA69 wrote: »

Unfortunately any war prosecuted is going to involve civilian death. By your logic any armed struggle in human history could be continued "terrorism" as they pretty much always involved the loss of innocent lives. There is no such thing as a "clean" war and in the grand scheme of things the ANC campaign was pretty tame in comparison to some other ones.

do you not recognise the difference between civilian casualties of war and the deliberate targeting of civilians?

--Kaiser--

Fratton Fred wrote: »

FTA69 wrote: »

do you not recognise the difference between civilian casualties of war and the deliberate targeting of civilians?

The ANC did deliberately target civilians. That's the point

Fratton Fred

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The ANC did deliberately target civilians. That's the point

bad quoting on my part. I agree with you. Simply saying that it was war, civilians get killed is just excusing deliberately killing innocent people.

Nodin

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

The ANC did deliberately target civilians. That's the point

You still haven't answered as to the following -

kaiser wrote:

The fact that the ANC were (rightly) seen as a terrorist organisation probably slowed down the elimination of Apartheid as most powerful countries (USA and Britain, for example) opposed them on this general principle

This would be the same US that supported the Contras, the death squads all over Latin America? You are aware that the SA Government practiced assassination and torture?

.jacksparrow.

Take America arming the fsa, now we know civilians will die as as result of arms been supplied?

Do we accept this as been ok because America aren't terrorists?

Busted Flat.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

do you not recognise the difference between civilian casualties of war and the deliberate targeting of civilians?

That is a continuing problem NATO and their criminal associate's have, when dealing with other countries, they really do not give a fook who they murder.
Men women or children.

Cool_CM

On a side note, Sky News showing videos of people outside the hospital releasing 100 doves. Always wondered what happens to all those doves that get released. Turns out that released doves have a habit of dying so they generally use homing pigeons instead: http://whitedovespa.org/

padd b1975

A South African friend of mine shared this on Facebook, I can't see any of his points being raised when the eulogising kicks into top gear......

HERE ANC’s LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS ... READS LIKE A FAIRY TALE

• 19 years of ANC rule unemployment has gone up by 60% !!

• South Africa is now the rape capital of the world

• After 19 years of ANC rule we have achieved the dubious distinction of being 140th on a world list of 144 countries for our education department.

• We are officially the country where the most hijacks take place

• We are also on the top ten list for the most murders

• In 19 years the rand/dollar has gone from R3.41 to R10.00

• During ANC rule the petrol price has gone from R1.73 to R12.83 per liter

• In 19 years our defense force has gone from being the iron fist of Africa to a laughing stock that can’t defend Disneyland from an invasion of fluffy toys

• On the list of most corrupt governments they have given us a special place right at the top

• In 19 years we have ten times more people in squatter camps and 1000% more illegal immigrants

• In 19 years our roads, railways, military, police, municipal services, old age homes, hospitals and orphanages have literally fallen apart and are worth nothing anymore

• No other country on the planet has more convicted criminals in their parliament than us!!

• 25% of all South African school girls are HIV+

• Our school girls had 100 000 abortions last year

NuckingFacker

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

At present rates of growth Africa will be richer than Europe in the future.

And the profits will be returned to Beijing. It is after all, the Chinese who are building the new roads, housing and mining infrastructure there. Quite a few Irish as well, but in the main, Chinese.

Regarding mandela, the question has to be asked, how is the average South African fareing since his rise to pre-emminence? Black and white. For the Whites, those who are wealthy enough to insulate themselves from crime, it is almost business as usual.

For those not so wealthy, it has been somwhat poorer than before, to say the least. mass emigration has become the norm.

For the Black population, again, the Elite are prospering. The non-elite? Crime, disease, poor education, unemployment, little state aid and dreadful living conditions.

What was the question again?

mikeym

padd b1975 wrote: »

A South African friend of mine shared this on Facebook, I can't see any of his points being raised when the eulogising kicks into top gear......

Thats down to years of mismanagement of previous governments.

Ive heard stories of girls going to shopping malls and going missing never to be seen again

South Africa is a very dangerous country.

nucker

Hitchens wrote: »

will he croak in time for tomorrows episode of................'Da Lavelahn'?

Not quite, but he is seriously ill now. He can't breathe on his own. Do I consider him a saint? Not for me to judge

padd b1975

mikeym wrote: »

Thats down to years of mismanagement of previous governments.

Ive heard stories of girls going to shopping malls and going missing never to be seen again

South Africa is a very dangerous country.

Yeah, previous governments are certainly a factor, but I think after almost 20 years of ANC rule, its not unreasonable to expect the tide to have turned for the better on the economic front.

It seems to me they are sleepwalking into anarchy on the back of international back-slapping and patronising.

Jimoslimos

padd b1975 wrote: »

A South African friend of mine shared this on Facebook, I can't see any of his points being raised when the eulogising kicks into top gear......

Is this a criticism of Mandela or the ANC in general? Because he was only president for a few years before retiring. Much of those are way overblown (and it's not as if there isn't enough valid criticisms of the ANC anyway)

South Africa is now the rape capital of the world

Hyperbole. There's no doubt that rape and sexual assaults are a serious problem in SA, but "rape capital". I suggest travelling to some other areas of the continent.

After 19 years of ANC rule we have achieved the dubious distinction of being 140th on a world list of 144 countries for our education department.

And Ireland is/was consistently ranked top 10 in many tables. Not actually sure what comparing education systems between nations actually achieves.

In 19 years the rand/dollar has gone from R3.41 to R10.00

During ANC rule the petrol price has gone from R1.73 to R12.83 per liter

Inflation. Wow! I mean no democratic European country has ever suffered such vast devaluation of their currency have they. Plus petrol prices have remained stable here for many a year. Also did your South African friends consider the impact on the economy when vast sums of money belonging to the wealthy elite were moved out of the country.

In 19 years our defense force has gone from being the iron fist of Africa to a laughing stock that can’t defend Disneyland from an invasion of fluffy toys

Ah yes, I too mourn for the days when SA used to spend obscene amounts of money developing nuclear weapons. Or would you have them spend millions on fighter planes like Uganda.

On the list of most corrupt governments they have given us a special place right at the top

Most people regards their own politicians as the most corrupt, nothing new here.

In 19 years we have ten times more people in squatter camps and 1000% more illegal immigrants

Surely such a vast rise in illegal immigrants means it's a comparatively attractive place to live in Africa, no? Not sure how the problems in bordering countries are entirely the ANCs fault. Perhaps they could have done more to put pressure on Mugabe alright.

No other country on the planet has more convicted criminals in their parliament than us!!

At least they convict them!!

Our school girls had 100 000 abortions last year

Well Ireland had 0, what does that tell you?

25% of all South African school girls are HIV+

This is the number 1 valid criticism of the ANC during their time in power. I'd go as far as to say they were responsible for more deaths post apartheid than in the conflict before through delaying the supply of anti-retrovirals to public hospitals and Mbeki's stance on the HIV/AIDS link.

Do I think the ANC are a force for good in SA politics? A resounding NO, revolutionary movements rarely are. However that is NEVER an excuse to justify what went on during the apartheid era (point scoring over the state of the economy 19 years ago is case in point). Might sound corny, but I wish people would look forwards not backwards.

I hope South Africans get the politicians they deserve, and they have a much better opportunity to do so post-apartheid.

Nodin

padd b1975 wrote: »

A South African friend of mine shared this on Facebook, I can't see any of his points being raised when the eulogising kicks into top gear......

Might have been nice if you read it before posting it.


Why do you think theres so many with convictions in their parliament....?

padd b1975

Nodin wrote: »

Might have been nice if you read it before posting it.


Why do you think theres so many with convictions in their parliament....?

People don't get to sit in parliament unless they receive the required number of votes.
Given that roughly 80% of the population is black, it's reasonable to assume where most of the votes to elect these criminals came from.

Sadly, the fact of the matter is SA is still a racist country. What chance would you give the most reasoned, honest and hard-working white politician you can think of (a white South African Ghandi for arguments sake) against one of Winnie Mandela's henchmen in an open election?

Black people are only voting for the black guy.
White people are only voting for the white guy.

It's a bloody mess.

Of course electorates a lot closer to home elect criminals/terrorists/kidnappers etc etc as well, so racism is not the sole reason why these type of scumbags end up in power.

There is clearly an element of a protest vote against what was once an oppressor in play.

Mandela was only good for international PR in regards to healing this divide, posing in a rugby shirt and schmoozing with international leaders does not a peaceful and inclusive society make.

Nodin

padd b1975 wrote: »

People don't get to sit in parliament unless they receive the required number of votes.
Given that roughly 80% of the population is black, it's reasonable to assume where most of the votes to elect these criminals came from.
...................

We'll try again.

Why do you think theres so many with convictions in their parliament....?

AudreyHepburn

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

He's treated as some sort of saint.

I still haven't met anyone who has explained exactly why

Something to do with his fight against Apartheid I would imagine.

I think he deserves all the praise he gets, remarkable man.

padd b1975

Nodin wrote: »

We'll try again.

Why do you think theres so many with convictions in their parliament....?

Sorry, I didn't feel the need to add a TL;DR to the end of my post....

I outlined two opinions as to why there are members of the South African Parliament with criminal convictions;

1. It's a race issue.

2. A protest vote.
Black guy is oppressed under minority white regime all his life forms the (not entirely unreasonable) point of view that all white would be politicans will be like P.W. Botha. From this position, there is not a chance in hell of him or any black person voting for a white candidate.

Benny_Cake

padd b1975 wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't feel the need to add a TL;DR to the end of my post....

I outlined two opinions as to why there are members of the South African Parliament with criminal convictions;

1. It's a race issue.

2. A protest vote.
Black guy is oppressed under minority white regime all his life forms the (not entirely unreasonable) point of view that all white would be politicans will be like P.W. Botha. From this position, there is not a chance in hell of him or any black person voting for a white candidate.

South Africa has a list system, people vote for a party, not for a candidate. The parties themselves decide who goes where on their respective lists. There are white ANC MPs and black Democratic Alliance MPs.

The fact that politicians are convicted at all puts SA ahead of most African countries.

steddyeddy

I wish people would stop equating terrorist with "bad". Terrorism is a set of tactics used by a organization that often haven't the numbers or technology to launch a full scale assault against an armed force. It is often used by the bigger side to describe the smaller side and it doesn't mean bad person.

If you wan't to label them as "good or bad" look at their motives. For instance the British and American armies have often fought with less admirable goals than those labelled as terrorists. I'm not naive enough to ignore the reasons why people fight because one side calls them terrorists.

In short: "There is no moral difference between a Stealth bomber and a suicide bomber. They both kill innocent people for political reasons."-Tony Ben.

steddyeddy

By the way if you think SA is the rape capital of the world try traveling to the republic of Congo.

Karl Stein

steddyeddy wrote: »

I wish people would stop equating terrorist with "bad". Terrorism is a set of tactics used by a organization...

How dare you try to understand and explain why people take up arms against oppressive, tortuous and murderous anti-democratic regimes.

How very dare you.

--Kaiser--

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

How dare you try to understand and explain why people take up arms against oppressive, tortuous and murderous anti-democratic regimes.

How very dare you.

Take up arms against murderous regimes by murdering innocent people. That'll show em!