British and Irish Lions vs Melbourne Rebels, 25th June 2013, Sky Sports 10.40am

bilston

Le vieux renard wrote: »

PR gave MOTM to Faletau. Have not watched game, is this fair?

Well possibly but if SOB had played the full 80 it probably would have been him. Faletau gets MOTM for playing 80 minutes, SOB doesn't for playing 60 minutes. I know who should be more confident of a place in the test squad.

irishbucsfan

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

I don't think there was anything wrong with the quality of ball on offer tonight with Lydiate and O'Brien on the field. Even with the ultimate ruck Inspector Richie Gray running around and I don't recall Toby F having to do that much in the way of support play either

I think you've been totally overstating the importance of Warburton's support play these last few weeks. I think it's something Lydiate does just as well at 6 and that Warburton doesn't offer enough outside of his support play and tackling

It's absolutely not something Lydiate does as well. Not close.

And if you think the Rebels pose the same threat on the ground as the Wallabies then I think you're in a very small minority.

Look at how good Warburton was in that facet of play against the Waratahs. It's very clearly something he does better than Lydiate.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's absolutely not something Lydiate does as well. Not close.

And if you think the Rebels pose the same threat on the ground as the Wallabies then I think you're in a very small minority.

Look at how good Warburton was in that facet of play against the Waratahs. It's very clearly something he does better than Lydiate.

Obviously I don't and maybe I'm not seeing it but I just don't see this big difference between Warburton and Lydiates support play that you're alluding to

Tox56

That is an absolute non-answer from Gatland to "how much can we read into SOB's substitution", Kidney-esque. I think SOB will be in the 23, will be interesting to see where

Kiwi_knock

Zebo looks delighted with the chants

Quint2010

I think Feletau will start on Saturday. Thought he was superb tonight. SOB on the bench for Lydiate.

irishbucsfan

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Obviously I don't and maybe I'm not seeing it but I just don't see this big difference between Warburton and Lydiates support play that you're alluding to

Well it's been clear on tour. Warburton showed why he was selected very clearly last Saturday. His position is secure, it's 6 and 20 that are up in the air imo

JRant

Tox56 wrote: »

That is an absolute non-answer from Gatland to "how much can we read into SOB's substitution", Kidney-esque. I think SOB will be in the 23, will be interesting to see where

Well considering he name dropped a few players but ommitted SOB is pretty damming. You could almost see him stopping himself from saying his name.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Can't see Toby F starting after 80 minutes tonight and a strong showing from Heaslip Saturday. If Heaslip has a bad game Saturday I think we'll see him for the third test though

Kiwi_knock

Faletau is the only backrow player definitely not in the reckoning for the 23

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well it's been clear on tour. Warburton showed why he was selected very clearly last Saturday. His position is secure, it's 6 and 20 that are up in the air imo

His position is secure because hes captain. His performances to date have been average at best and not the ' excellent' that you keep alluding to.

if tackle counts is your main argument for an open side flanker, in which warburton lead the stats, then it shows a very real limitation in that position. The aussie ball was not slowed down to any marked degree, and genia ran riot around the field.

Warburton will start again, but not due to his performances.

Buer

Quint2010 wrote: »

I think Feletau will start on Saturday. Thought he was superb tonight. SOB on the bench for Lydiate.

Sorry, Quint. You've posted this a few times before the first test also and it's going to remain the same. Not the slightest hope of TF starting this weekend. You don't play 80 minutes on Tuesday and then get asked to start a test game on Saturday.

wonderfullife

JRant wrote: »

Well considering he name dropped a few players but ommitted SOB is pretty damming. You could almost see him stopping himself from saying his name.

which, in itself, is a huge positive.

Gatland all tour is refusing to give away anything. The fact he name-checked Maitland, Gray and others is a huge plus for SOB's chances. He basically name-checked guys who wont be anywhere near the XV for morale purposes.

I find the Sir Alex Ferguson-esque mind games a bit ridiculous but it's been happening all tour with Gatland, so i'm actually very confident for the first time that SOB will now in fact be in the 23.

stackerman

THIS is what I love about the Lions
Selection opinions

Looking forward to the test and the naming of the team

Anyone got a clip of SOB interview ??
Missed it

JRant

SOB's link and support play for the first try was fantastic. Lovely inside ball to put Manu into space and then he was the first player clearing out when TF slipped, great stuff.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

His position is secure because hes captain. His performances to date have been average at best and not the ' excellent' that you keep alluding to.

if tackle counts is your main argument for an open side flanker, in which warburton lead the stats, then it shows a very real limitation in that position. The aussie ball was not slowed down to any marked degree, and genia ran riot around the field.

Warburton will start again, but not due to his performances.

I never said anything about tackle counts though. So not really sure what you're talking about.

It's about putting the best back row onto the field to play Gatland's rugby. And Warburton has clearly shown he's one of the more important players in achieving that. And I hate putting it like this, but I think there are some people who just aren't able to see what he does and get frustrated. But the last two Saturdays have been good examples.

Himself and Heaslip were great last Saturday so they should be safe. It's that 6 jersey which I think could change. And if Lydiate comes in (I'd start SOB myself) then there will be a great battle for that 20 jersey.

Quint2010

Buer wrote: »

Sorry, Quint. You've posted this a few times before the first test also and it's going to remain the same. Not the slightest hope of TF starting this weekend. You don't play 80 minutes on Tuesday and then get asked to start a test game on Saturday.

Have nothing against Heaslip just think Feletau is the better player. You are most likely right in that Feletau played 80 tonight just think Heaslip is a bit lucky to get the jersey.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Good post on PR re: Barnes today

I shouldn't be surprised, but was Barnes even worse today than he usually is? After 10 mins he said that both scrumhalves had started poorly, but at that stage by my reckoning Murray was error free and had actually made Farrell look like an attacking outhalf with the speed and accuracy of his passing and the speed with which he got to the breakdown. In fact at that stage, and indeed for the rest of the game he gave the best performance of a 9 on the tour. He made a few mistakes, with a poor offload to Grant in the first half and a pointless kick ahead in the second, and his pass to Lydiate from the quick tap wasn't too clever, but for the first time on the tour the ball was being put in front of the receiver, box kicks were excellent, and speed to the breakdown and getting the ball away were allowing to backline to get flat. The contrast between his performance and those by Philips and Youngs in the previous games, even allowing for the standard of the opposition, was stark, and yet Barnes constantly made comments about how poor he was. And then when Youngs came on he almost wanked himself to death, ffs

He really annoyed me

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

We won't be seeing Zebo again, but I think he can hold his head high after a good tour. Should have been in the original party imo, and if he was I think he would have started last weekend but thems the breaks. He had nothing to lose being called out and it really showed in the way he played. Going to be an important player for Munster and Ireland next season

Buer

Quint2010 wrote: »

Have nothing against Heaslip just think Feletau is the better player. You are most likely right in that Feletau played 80 tonight just think Heaslip is a bit lucky to get the jersey.

I'm a big TF fan and he has had a decent tour but ever since April, JH has found another gear and outperformed him consistently.

In a number of other tours, TF might well have been starting. He's unfortunate that his time has coincided with a player of Heaslip's quality.

Teferi

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

We won't be seeing Zebo again, but I think he can hold his head high after a good tour. Should have been in the original party imo, and if he was I think he would have started last weekend but thems the breaks. He had nothing to lose being called out and it really showed in the way he played. Going to be an important player for Munster and Ireland next season

Yup. I think it's disappointing he wasn't with the original party tbh. He'd have a much larger part to play in this tour if he had. We may see him again if there is an injury or two. Anyway, this experience will stick to him and I'm excited to see what Joe will do with him for Ireland.

Buer

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Good post on PR re: Barnes today



He really annoyed me

Didn't know you posted on PR. :pac:

Thought Murray's service was generally good and he had a decent game but a scrum half can't have so many sloppy errors. The botched offload, the kick ahead to nobody, the tap and go, kicking the ball dead before the end (there's a big bloody hooter that sounds!)....they all handed possession back to the opposition unnecessarily.

His passing, in the first half particularly, was very smooth and good. But to get into the Lions 23, he needed to be error free.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And I hate putting it like this, but I think there are some people who just aren't able to see what he does and get frustrated. But the last two Saturdays have been good examples.

Its not a case of people not seeing this unglamorous work, we all see the rucks hit and the tackles made. However we also see the lack of impact when balls in hand.

We saw today a well balanced back row, a tackling blind side, a jackling and barn storming open side, and an eight with a good mix of both and an ability to hit rucks.

Last saturday we supposedly had our carrying flanker on blind side and our ground hog on open side, with an eight who does as the above (only better in m y opinion).
My argument is that warbs main skill / selling point its that his support play hitting rucks its worth the loss of impact he has in open play when compared to sob for instance.

The lions did not get enough quick ruck ball on saturday to make this argument.

JRant

Funnily enough I think the Lh selection may havesome bearing on who plays 6. If Gatland goes with Grant I can see him picking SOB to add an extra dinension to the pack.

Quint2010

Yes Barnes sounds so pompous on commentary.

awec

What did SOB say?

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

What did SOB say?

Players were pissed off after last week

JRant

sydthebeat wrote: »

Players were pissed off after last week

Seemed strange to have to apologies for. If it's not on the Boards swear filter it's not worth talking about

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

piss

EDIT: wasn't sure if it was on the filter or not

haha, piss piss piss piss piss

awec

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

piss

flaps?

Anyway, Barnes' bias should be of no surprise to anyone.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Barnes is just clueless really, wouldn't even say it's bias, sure he loves Leinster

.ak

Did Tuilagi come off?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

.ak wrote: »

Did Tuilagi come off?

Nope

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

Its not a case of people not seeing this unglamorous work, we all see the rucks hit and the tackles made. However we also see the lack of impact when balls in hand.

We saw today a well balanced back row, a tackling blind side, a jackling and barn storming open side, and an eight with a good mix of both and an ability to hit rucks.

Last saturday we supposedly had our carrying flanker on blind side and our ground hog on open side, with an eight who does as the above (only better in m y opinion).
My argument is that warbs main skill / selling point its that his support play hitting rucks its worth the loss of impact he has in open play when compared to sob for instance.

The lions did not get enough quick ruck ball on saturday to make this argument.

Well firstly the Lions got plenty of quick ball. You can't argue the selection wasnt a success, it was. You can certainly argue the selection of Croft wasn't.

The best way to show exactly why it was a success is the attacking possession directly before Genia's try. An example of the Lions setting out and achieving some top class Gatland ball.

Now if you have a problem with the ball carrying in the back row, then I suggest looking at the player selected to do that. Tom Croft. And I do think SOB would have done a better job than him.

If you think the balance of the back row is wrong, then I guess you have a problem with Gatland. But this is a very successful approach to the game and it is probably the best available to the Lions against this opposition. And I think if you look at how quiet Hooper was in the first half you'll see why.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well firstly the Lions got plenty of quick ball. You can't argue the selection wasnt a success, it was. You can certainly argue the selection of Croft wasn't.

Sorry what?

Aus missed kicks at goal. That was the reason for the result. Australia lost the game, not the Lions winning it.

Aus finished the game with 3 front line backs in hospital. They were a makeshift team for over 25 minutes of the game and lost by 2 points.

The result may have been a Lions win, but it sure as **** was not a success.

irishbucsfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sorry what?

Aus missed kicks at goal. That was the reason Lions won.

Aus finished the game with 3 front line backs in hospital. They were a makeshift team for over 25 minutes of the game and lost by 2 points.

The result may have been a Lions win, but it sure as **** was not a success.

The pack were excellent. The game was so close because of a couple of factors (Phillips, the ref) but the forwards were excellent almost to a man.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well firstly the Lions got plenty of quick ball. You can't argue the selection wasnt a success, it was. You can certainly argue the selection of Croft wasn't.

I can argue with that. Had Auss brought a decent pair of boots with them they'd have won the first test. The Lions didn't do anything to contribute to that. We were blown out of the water at the breakdown.

Watching the test back the other day we were extremely sloppy at the breakdown. The two most valuable players were actually Warbs and POC. Warb is extremely clever, and not the biggest guy but uses his body in clever ways. POC just acted like a 6 and smashed the rucks. However, he isn't as mobile as we like to think, and Croft was found wanting when he had to hit rucks. He flopped on them more than anything.

Australia shaded us in the breakdown, anytime our ball was slowed down they were very clinical at pushing us back and disrupting ball further, our clear outs were extremely ineffective.

Now that POC is out of the picture we'll need another big unit to hit rucks. AWJ will need to step up, but I'd seriously consider SOB too. I think SOB and Warburton would actually have the best balance to be honest.

EDIT: Incidentally I work with a SA shark's fan, and he can't fathom why Lydiate or Warburton are on the tour, and he's actually a big fan of Wales usually. He thinks the two of them are underpowered for these tests. He also thinks Croft should be dropped after saturday.

As much as the 'depth' in the Lions backrow has been bigged up we currently have a weaker back row than Australia imo.

Smith will only further impact that problem.

irishbucsfan

I got to "we were blown out of the water at the breakdown" and stopped.

Completely untrue.

How many times did they turn us over at the breakdown in the first half?

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I got to "we were blown out of the water at the breakdown" and stopped.

Completely untrue.

How many times did they turn us over at the breakdown in the first half?

BOD and Warburton both came out and said they stopped competing at the breakdown when the refs 'interpretation' became apparent, I would imagine the Aussies were thinking something similar

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I got to "we were blown out of the water at the breakdown" and stopped.

Completely untrue.

How many times did they turn us over at the breakdown in the first half?

What does turn overs have to do with anything? We consistently struggled to get clean ball and got sucked into dog fights which clearly was not part of the plan and was clearly due to a lack of power at the breakdown.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well firstly the Lions got plenty of quick ball. You can't argue the selection wasnt a success, it was.

well secondly, they didn't... And it wasnt.

Mowen showed how to cut down the attacking options around the breakdown where as the lions definitely came out second best in that regard when compared.

The truth is the lions, while playing better and having better players, almost lost the game because of what they couldn't do.... Not because of what they could. The lions should have had that game sown up after ,60 when hooper moved to centre, but they were unable to pull away because of slow ground ball and a scrum half that was shorn of ideas. Even when youngs came on the ball wasn't as clean as it should have been to allow him to dictate the play.

We won't agree on this.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

BOD and Warburton both came out and said they stopped competing at the breakdown when the refs 'interpretation' became apparent, I would imagine the Aussies were thinking something similar

You're talking about defensively.

I don't think the Aussies stopped. Hooper couldn't get a sniff

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're talking about defensively.

I don't think the Aussies stopped. Hooper couldn't get a sniff

Aussies are probably saying the same about Warburton, but I think the ref played a huge part in it

sydthebeat

Tox56 wrote: »

Aussies are probably saying the same about Warburton, but I think the ref played a huge part in it

But sure our open side flanker wasnt there for turn overs...don't cha know

captbarnacles

Melbourne Rebels

Lydiate underpowered? Can't see that.

.ak

captbarnacles wrote: »

Lydiate underpowered? Can't see that.

In fairness Lydiate hasn't shown anything to say otherwise, he's played feck all and has made a lot of defensive tackles, but that's it. He's a shadow of his 2012 6N player of the season self.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

Aussies are probably saying the same about Warburton, but I think the ref played a huge part in it

Well I doubt the Aussies are aaying that about the breakdown. If they are they're wrong.

Theres a reason the Lions achieved a phase count of 23 when the Aussies only managed 7 at the most.

For Paws

Melbourne Rebels

In any case the game plan for the 2nd Test (providing the Lions won the 1st) will be to keep it tight, which in turn makes Croft's selection more difficult.

With POC out, we're left with only 3 line out jumpers (AWJ, Parling & Heaslip) so Croft may owe his place in the starting side to his line out capabilities.

But since Tom Youngs can't throw accurately to the tail, it's debatable whether Croft's catching is enough to see him named.

Reckon JH will start, with SW at 7 & Lydiate at 6. SOB to bench.

Roberts will come in at 12 & Ben Youngs will bench.

Tommy Bowe to start at 14.

So much, again, will revolve around Phillips' ability to compete with Genia's speed, and to keep control at ruck time.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well I doubt the Aussies are aaying that about the breakdown. If they are they're wrong.

Theres a reason the Lions achieved a phase count of 23 when the Aussies only managed 7 at the most.

Go on?

wonderfullife

Tom Croft is a superb athlete and is always shown to best effect when the backline is functioning. Back in 2009 in the 1st Test he had a shocker in the 1st Half, but when Stephen Jones started to unleash Doc-Bod, Croft was great. Excellent support lines, decent carries and good finishes.

But he IS a flanker and frankly he's often admitted half jokingly he ends up on the wing more than the wingers do. We need either SOB, or hell, i'd even be ok with Lydiate in there this weekend. If we can't at least get parity at the breakdown it doesnt matter how much talent we have out wide.

Bottom line is this - and it has to keep coming back to this - the selection of Warburton as captain has really served to mess up a quite stunning set of forwards.

SOB
Heaslip
Faletau
Tipuric
Lydiate
Warburton
Croft

ANY touring side ever put together would dream of talent like that to choose from. Yet because Warburton is captain, and hence un-dropable despite Gatlands baloni pre-tour, it's becoming ever more difficult to get the best out of that group.

There are so many combinations of that seven that could be unbelievably good this weekend.

Lydiate - SOB -Heaslip
Tipuric - SOB - Heaslip
SOB - Warburton - Heaslip
Croft - SOB - Heaslip
Croft - Tipuric - Heaslip

And of course i have Heaslip in all but Faletau for Heaslip changes little, both superb.

The problem isnt just Warburton hasnt justified his selection and is not in peak form. The problem is his guaranteed selection means Gatland has to base the entire "balance" of the backrow around him.