2013-14 Uefa Champions League

That_Guy

PSV V Milan is a brilliant game. Neither defence has been particularly good.

Real Sociedad scored an amazing goal.

Nuri Sahin

Another excellent finish, this time from Seferovic. La Real now 2-0 up.

GTR63

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

Another excellent finish, this time from Seferovic. La Real now 2-0 up.

I made a louder noise when I saw that than my noisy neighbour does moaning late at night.

GTR63

Abiatti you PLUM!

GLaDOS

Only just switched on, howler from the keeper! PSV 1-1 Milan.

Nuri Sahin

Abbiati howler from a Bruma shot from distance and Matavz taps in! 1-1.

That_Guy

Great game.

Also, Lyon's second was amazing.

citytillidie

Tonights games

GNK Dinamo Zagreb (CRO) 0 V 2 FK Austria Wien (AUT)
PFC Ludogorets Razgrad (BUL) 2 V 4 FC Basel 1893 (SUI)
FC Steaua Bucureşti (ROU) 1 V 1 Legia Warszawa (POL)
FC Schalke 04 (GER) 1 V 1 PAOK FC (GRE)
Fenerbahçe SK (TUR) 0 V 3 Arsenal FC (ENG)

citytillidie

Tonights games

FK Austria Wien (AUT) 2 V 3 GNK Dinamo Zagreb (CRO) (Agg 4-3)
FC Basel 1893 (SUI) 2 V 0 PFC Ludogorets Razgrad (BUL) (Agg 6-2)
Legia Warszawa (POL) 2 V 2 FC Steaua Bucureşti (ROU) (Agg 3-3) FC Steaua Bucureşti (ROU) win on Away goals
PAOK FC (GRE) 2 V 3 FC Schalke 04 (GER) (Agg 3-4)
Arsenal FC (ENG) 2 V 0 Fenerbahçe SK (TUR) (Agg 5-0)

Lawrence1895

citytillidie wrote: »

Tonights games

FK Austria Wien (AUT) V GNK Dinamo Zagreb (CRO) (Agg 2-0)
FC Basel 1893 (SUI) V PFC Ludogorets Razgrad (BUL) (Agg 4-2)
Legia Warszawa (POL) V FC Steaua Bucureşti (ROU) (Agg 1-1)
PAOK FC (GRE) V FC Schalke 04 (GER) (Agg 1-1)
Arsenal FC (ENG) V Fenerbahçe SK (TUR) (Agg 3-0)

That's an interesting one...behind closed doors, btw

citytillidie

Tonight sees the end of the qualification who will be the last 5 to join the group stage.
NK Maribor (SVN) 0 V 1 FC Viktoria Plzeň (CZE) (Agg 1-4)
Celtic FC (SCO) 3 V 0 FC Shakhter Karagandy (KAZ) (Agg 3-2)
Real Sociedad de Fútbol (ESP) 2 V 0 Olympique Lyonnais (FRA) (Agg 4-0)
FC Zenit St. Petersburg (RUS) 4 V 2 FC Paços de Ferreira (POR) (Agg 8-3)
AC Milan (ITA) 3 V 0 PSV Eindhoven (NED) (Agg 4-1)

32 teams in the group stage
FC Bayern München (GER)
FC Barcelona (ESP)
Chelsea FC (ENG)
Real Madrid CF (ESP)
Manchester United FC (ENG)
FC Porto (POR)
SL Benfica (POR)
Club Atlético de Madrid (ESP)
FC Shakhtar Donetsk (UKR)
Olympique de Marseille (FRA)
PFC CSKA Moksva (RUS)
Paris Saint-Germain FC (FRA)
Juventus (ITA)
Manchester City FC (ENG)
AFC Ajax (NED)
Borussia Dortmund (GER)
Olympiacos FC (GRE)
Galatasaray AŞ (TUR)
Bayer 04 Leverkusen (GER)
FC København (DEN)
SSC Napoli (ITA)
RSC Anderlecht (BEL)
FK Austria Wien (AUT)
FC Basel 1893 (SUI)
FC Steaua Bucureşti (ROU)
FC Schalke 04 (GER)
Arsenal FC (ENG)
FC Viktoria Plzeň (CZE)
Celtic FC (SCO)
Real Sociedad de Fútbol (ESP)
FC Zenit St. Petersburg (RUS)
AC Milan (ITA)

karma_

Just had a look at the pots for the draw. There is some serious problems with how UEFA work the seeding out and should urgently be looked at.

Boots234

karma_ wrote: »

Just had a look at the pots for the draw. There is some serious problems with how UEFA work the seeding out and should urgently be looked at.

Where did you see them?

citytillidie

Pot 1
FC Bayern München (GER)
FC Barcelona (ESP)
Chelsea FC (ENG)
Real Madrid CF (ESP)
Manchester United FC (ENG)
Arsenal FC (ENG)
FC Porto (POR)
SL Benfica (POR)

Pot 2
Club Atlético de Madrid (ESP)
FC Shakhtar Donetsk (UKR)
AC Milan (ITA)
FC Schalke 04 (GER)
Olympique de Marseille (FRA)
PFC CSKA Moksva (RUS)
Paris Saint-Germain FC (FRA)
Juventus (ITA)

Pot 3
FC Zenit St. Petersburg (RUS)
Manchester City FC (ENG)
AFC Ajax (NED)
Borussia Dortmund (GER)
FC Basel 1893 (SUI)
Olympiacos FC (GRE)
Galatasaray AŞ (TUR)
Bayer 04 Leverkusen (GER)

Pot 4
FC København (DEN)
SSC Napoli (ITA)
RSC Anderlecht (BEL)
Celtic FC (SCO)
FC Steaua Bucureşti (ROU)
FC Viktoria Plzeň (CZE)
Real Sociedad de Fútbol (ESP)
FK Austria Wien (AUT)

Got from here http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/seedcl2013.html

Draw is 5pm UK tomorrow

GTR63

Imagine getting PSG, Dortmund and Napoli....

Bertser

Please give City a group of death again. Barca, PSG, City, Napoli or something.

kryogen

karma_ wrote: »

Just had a look at the pots for the draw. There is some serious problems with how UEFA work the seeding out and should urgently be looked at.

Nothing wrong with the seeding, very fair way of doing it

Dempsey

I think the weighting for Europa League matches should be reduced

Dr. Baltar

Bertser wrote: »

Please give City a group of death again. Barca, PSG, City, Napoli or something.

grenache

Bertser wrote: »

Please give City a group of death again. Barca, PSG, City, Napoli or something.

Yes yes yes! I'd love Napoli to have 3 other giants in the group. They could give anyone a good pasting at the San Paolo, like they did with City & Chelsea in 2011. But I'd swap Barca for Real.

Real
Dortmund
Man City
Napoli

.....would be fantastic

mitosis

kryogen wrote: »

Nothing wrong with the seeding, very fair way of doing it

The seeding is a sham. The reference period is way too long. Sides like Man U and Arsenal in pot one based on what? Where did they finish last year, the previous year? What were Uniteds results in Europe last year?

Dortmund in pot 3? Runners up last year. Juventus seeded in pot 3? Quarter finals.

The only ones who would think the seeding is fair are those who benefit from it.

batistuta9

mitosis wrote: »

The seeding is a sham. The reference period is way too long. Sides like Man U and Arsenal in pot one based on what? Where did they finish last year, the previous year? What were Uniteds results in Europe last year?

Dortmund in pot 3? Runners up last year. Juventus seeded in pot 3? Quarter finals.

The only ones who would think the seeding is fair are those who benefit from it.

what would you base it on?

The period is too long i'd agree but they're all members of the the group that replaced G-14 so why don't they say something?

last year man u & arsenal finished joint 15th
the previous year: arsenal 11th & man u 29th
http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/tcoef2012.html

mitosis

batistuta9 wrote: »

what would you base it on?

The period is too long i'd agree but they're all members of the the group that replaced G-14 so why don't they say something?

last year man u & arsenal finished joint 15th
the previous year: arsenal 11th & man u 29th
http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/tcoef2012.html

Truly I don't know. Maybe three years results - but there's no way in hell Arsenal are in the top eight sides in Europe.

What I'd like to see is an open draw, no group stages, but that's never going to happen. Naturally I'd also like it restricted to champions only, but that shows my age . I used to love the European Cup

homerjay2005

strongest Champions league in years...theres not just one potential group of death there, theres 3 or 4.

citytillidie

Man City are still ranked below Liverpool in the over all ranking it can be a bit messed up with 5 years worth of points.

Look at Benfica if they are going to jump up the rankings for next season as they will lose that 4 points at the end of this season, might even go ahead of Arsenal

http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2013.html

batistuta9

mitosis wrote: »

Truly I don't know. Maybe three years results - but there's no way in hell Arsenal are in the top eight sides in Europe.

What I'd like to see is an open draw, no group stages, but that's never going to happen. Naturally I'd also like it restricted to champions only, but that shows my age . I used to love the European Cup

over the last three years results arsenal are 10th, they'd be 9th seed for the CL as valencia aren't in it.
0.469 behind porto so their not that far off being a top 8 side if you used your three year method method

i support arsenal and i wouldn't even try to say they're in the top 8 in europe but the above shows that they'd be problems with any seeding system, even if you based it on just the previous year you'll get the odd exception like Dortmund, Juve, PSG/Man City in their firsts seasons
& because of that it can carry on as with dortmund (3.6, 10.1, 10.0) before last year when the got 33.5 ranking 2nd

i wouldn't mind that format again either but it's apparently a non runner because of money & so's the idea of making it champions only again people all say when it's brought up, as the interest in the comps. would switch.

Lennonist

Why do they give extra points to clubs from stronger leagues based on performance of other teams from those leagues. Isn't it enough that extra places are provided for clubs from stronger leagues, without also giving them bonus coeff points simply because of their geographical location.

In the play offs there is a champions route which helps clubs from weaker leagues a bit, but I think they could also dispense with the extra coeff points for stronger leagues.

ArmaniJeanss

Lennonist wrote: »

Why do they give extra points to clubs from stronger leagues based on performance of other teams from those leagues. Isn't it enough that extra places are provided for clubs from stronger leagues, without also giving them bonus coeff points simply because of their geographical location.

Slightly disingenuous question, as its not just for the stronger leagues, its all leagues. i.e., if Dundalk win the LOI this year they'll get a % of the coefficient points garnered by Rovers and Pats over the last few years.

Otherwise the system would be relatively biased against new teams.
The points you inherit are still quite small though, witness Man City only just sneaking into Pot 3.

karma_

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Slightly disingenuous question, as its not just for the stronger leagues, its all leagues. i.e., if Dundalk win the LOI this year they'll get a % of the coefficient points garnered by Rovers and Pats over the last few years.

Otherwise the system would be relatively biased against new teams.
The points you inherit are still quite small though, witness Man City only just sneaking into Pot 3.

City probably deserve Pot 3 based on previous efforts, certainly not higher anyway. But as it stands right now it's certainly weighted against smaller teams.

Lennonist

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Slightly disingenuous question, as its not just for the stronger leagues, its all leagues. i.e., if Dundalk win the LOI this year they'll get a % of the coefficient points garnered by Rovers and Pats over the last few years.

Otherwise the system would be relatively biased against new teams.

The clubs from stronger leagues get the advantage of this set up. There should be a way of not discriminating against new teams that doesn't involve discriminating against clubs from weaker national leagues.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The points you inherit are still quite small though, witness Man City only just sneaking into Pot 3.

The points are small but whatever points there are are skewed in favour of clubs from stronger leagues. It should really be the other way around in the interests of equity.

GavRedKing

I'm going to call it, Rafa and Napoli in with Chelsea.

dsmythy

The seeding system is perfect. If Celtic for example want to get a better seeding then play well this year again.

GTR63

GavRedKing wrote: »

I'm going to call it, Rafa and Napoli in with Chelsea.

My prediction group H will be the weakest. It nearly always is.
Imagine though one group could have Barca, PSG, Dortmund & Napoli. Whereas another could have Bayern, Juventus, City & Celtic. Then you could also have a group like Porto, Marseille, Olympiakos & Austria Vienna.

Giggsy11

mitosis wrote: »

The seeding is a sham. The reference period is way too long. Sides like Man U and Arsenal in pot one based on what? Where did they finish last year, the previous year? What were Uniteds results in Europe last year?

Dortmund in pot 3? Runners up last year. Juventus seeded in pot 3? Quarter finals.

The only ones who would think the seeding is fair are those who benefit from it.

Ranking system is fine except that Europa league games carry equal points as Champions league which is wrong IMO.

5 years is good enough time span, you can't expect some rich owner to buy a team, win league and expect them to be in POT1(like PSG for example) or a team that by luck make it to the SF to be in POT 1. You have to perform well for considerable period to make it to Top 1.

What did ManUtd do in Europe? 3 finals, 1 QF, 1 Round of 16 and 1 group stage in last 6 years. That's at least as consistent as any team not named Barca and Bayern.

Lennonist

dsmythy wrote: »

The seeding system is perfect. If Celtic for example want to get a better seeding then play well this year again.

Celtic will still have to face 3 qualifying rounds for the CL in the next two years at least despite the fact that they have now qualified for the Group Stages for two seasons in a row and got to the last 16 last season. The only way they could enhance their coeff sufficiently would be to win the whole thing outright.

The fact that other Scottish teams are struggling in Europe is hindering Celtic, but Celtic can't do anything about that. This is an aspect to the system that impinges clubs from all the smaller leagues, not just Celtic.

As I said earlier whatever small the amount of points that go towards national coeffs, it should be skewed the other way towards helping clubs from smaller leagues in my view.

ArmaniJeanss

Scotland is an absolutely unique example though.
One team who are hugely competitive against the Pot 1 sides and capable of going deep in the Champions League, partnered with 3 Europa League qualifiers who ship 4 goal defeats in their first qualifier year after year no matter who the opposition is, and barely appear to be even trying half the time.

Even in other '1 horse leagues' (e.g., Sweden/Norway in the Gothenberg, Rosenberg days) the Europa qualifiers have always tended to be at least competitive at the level they go in at.

The system is unfair to Celtic undeniably but changing it purely for the Scottish problem isn't necessarily a great move either.

Dempsey

Lennonist wrote: »

Celtic will still have to face 3 qualifying rounds for the CL in the next two years at least despite the fact that they have now qualified for the Group Stages for two seasons in a row and got to the last 16 last season. The only way they could enhance their coeff sufficiently would be to win the whole thing outright.

The fact that other Scottish teams are struggling in Europe is hindering Celtic, but Celtic can't do anything about that. This is an aspect to the system that impinges clubs from all the smaller leagues, not just Celtic.

As I said earlier whatever small the amount of points that go towards national coeffs, it should be skewed the other way towards helping clubs from smaller leagues in my view.

Celtic get punished for the failure of other scottish clubs

EDIT

Ben Lyttleton ‏@benlyt 1m

Just heard from Monaco that in Champs Lge draw rehearsal, one group came out: Real Madrid, PSG, Man City & Napoli. Repeat: rehearsal! Oof

Get your bets on! :pac:

2nd EDIT

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23680545

How Uefa's seeding system helps Arsenal & hinders Celtic

Lennonist

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Scotland is an absolutely unique example though.
One team who are hugely competitive against the Pot 1 sides and capable of going deep in the Champions League, partnered with 3 Europa League qualifiers who ship 4 goal defeats in their first qualifier year after year no matter who the opposition is, and barely appear to be even trying half the time.

Even in other '1 horse leagues' (e.g., Sweden/Norway in the Gothenberg, Rosenberg days) the Europa qualifiers have always tended to be at least competitive at the level they go in at.

The system is unfair to Celtic undeniably but changing it purely for the Scottish problem isn't necessarily a great move either.

Why have a national coeff aspect to the system at all?

From the BBC article that Dempsey linked there:

The system is stacked in the favour of teams from stronger nations, with each club picking up a fixed percentage - 20% - of their nation's overall coefficient to add to their own.

There should be a way of developing a system that is fair to all new teams in the competition no matter where they are from, without this skewed advantage to clubs from stronger leagues as the BBC article outlined.

d22ontour

mitosis wrote: »

Dortmund in pot 3? Runners up last year.
The only ones who would think the seeding is fair are those who benefit from it.

Why don't you check how Dortmund did in the 2010/2011 and 2011/2012 seasons in European competitions ? That would explain why even if it was a 3 year reference they would be third seeds.

mitosis wrote: »

Truly I don't know. Maybe three years results

They have to have some mechanism in place to achieve a working ranking system, the system does seem to favour those who consistently qualify for European competitions i do agree...

Hulk Hands

Giggsy11 wrote: »

What did ManUtd do in Europe? 3 finals, 1 QF, 1 Round of 16 and 1 group stage in last 6 years. That's at least as consistent as any team not named Barca and Bayern.

Exactly, two years removed from a final appearance and 5 from winning it, as well as champions of a major league (not a factor admittedly). If you make the seeding over a small timeframe it would become a shambles, with teams who get one good run in the competition ahead of those who consistently perform

Lennonist

d22ontour wrote: »

They have to have some mechanism in place to achieve a working ranking system, the system does seem to favour those who consistently qualify for European competitions i do agree...

Rewarding clubs for consistency is one thing. Rewarding clubs simply because their geographical location means they come from a stronger domestic league is another. It's an aspect to the system that should be changed.

ArmaniJeanss

Lennonist wrote: »

Why have a national coeff aspect to the system at all?

From the BBC article that Dempsey linked there: There should be a way of developing a system that is fair to all new teams in the competition no matter where they are from, without this skewed advantage to clubs from stronger leagues as the BBC article outlined.

In fairness the line in the BBC article that says 'The system is stacked in the favour of teams from stronger nations, with each club picking up a fixed percentage - 20% - of their nation's overall coefficient to add to their own' is just a sound bite.
The point of the article seems to be to have a pop at Arsenal being a number 1 seed, but if this 20% wasn't given to anyone then Arsenal would still be a number one seed. Fundamentally its Arsenals consistency of getting to L8 and L16 which gets them that slot.
Take off that 20% from everyone and I don't think Arsenal fall out of the Top8.

keith16

Question:

Will we know the dates of the fixtures after the draw is made? I booked flights to see Barca vs Espanyol in November, so I need their champions league game the following week to fall on the Tuesday which will move Espanyol game to the Saturday.

I badly need this to happen.

Kerrydude1981

Only a matter of time before Jamie comes out with "top top club" or "his a top top player"

Paully D

Can anyone tell me what time the actual draw will start please? I'd rather tune in for that than have to listen to them fannying around for an hour.

keith16

Paully D wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what time the actual draw will start please? I'd rather tune in for that than have to listen to them fannying around for an hour.

Supposed to be 16:45 Irish time. But I doubt it will even start then.

Lennonist

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

In fairness the line in the BBC article that says 'The system is stacked in the favour of teams from stronger nations, with each club picking up a fixed percentage - 20% - of their nation's overall coefficient to add to their own' is just a sound bite.
The point of the article seems to be to have a pop at Arsenal being a number 1 seed, but if this 20% wasn't given to anyone then Arsenal would still be a number one seed. Fundamentally its Arsenals consistency of getting to L8 and L16 which gets them that slot.
Take off that 20% from everyone and I don't think Arsenal fall out of the Top8.

Even if Arsenal didn't fall out of the top 8, what's that got to do with the inequity of that particular aspect to the system?

ArmaniJeanss

Lennonist wrote: »

Even if Arsenal didn't fall out of the top 8, what's that got to do with the inequity of that particular aspect to the system?

I'd be 100% happy to remove it, personally I think country coefficient should only decide what round you start in and then your club coefficient should be all that decides your seeding within each round.

But the ones who'd suffer aren't Arsenal despite what the BBC article indicates; it'd be PSG or Juventus who'd have had a coefficient of zero when they came back in after a spell in the wilderness, ditto likely AS Monaco next year. Or an Aston Villa or Bologna style team if they started qualifying.
Celtic would undeniably gain, the BBC is correct there; because of pretty unique circumstances they are the biggest sufferer.

Kirby

This draw has a decidedly Eurovision feel to it. :P

Jelle1880

I despise this crap, just draw the teams and get it over with.