Anglo Tapes

Slideshowbob

Fionnan Sheahan was like a dog with a bone or something last night on Vin B.

Maybe Indo group think this drip drip of sensationalism over the next 2 days - 2 months will save their asses.

Maybe they have tapes on AIB too? Although didn't AIB give them a 140m write down 2 months ago - oh yeah ..... :rolleyes::(

Dampintheattic

This guy, called it like it was, is and ever shall be. Amen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvLpDHhpWqY

Rightwing

Essentially all these guys in Anglo were doing was speculating (pardon the pun) how severe or otherwise the fall would be, they had no way of knowing. And that's the line they will take.

Tordelback

Let's say two lads with form were recorded discussing how to do over a certain Post Office branch. And then that PO branch was robbed in exactly that manner by two men matching their descriptions. How long would it be before they were sitting in the local station?

Godge

Good loser wrote: »

To me the heart of the matter is that the Regulator and his staff (that is State workers) were extraordinarily incompetent and gullible over many years.

Just because the police are incompetent and failed to stop a crime doesn't make the crime less of a crime.

Anglo set out to deceive the regulator and went after the politicians as well - remember Seanies meetings with Cowen. It is easy to look back and blame the staff but the real culprits are the Anglo boys, Cowen, Lenihan and mcWilliams who persuaded Lenihan to put in the guarantee.

raymon

Dampintheattic wrote: »

This guy, called it like it was, is and ever shall be. Amen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvLpDHhpWqY

Great clip !

maninasia

McWilliams guarantee did not included bailing out all the bondholders.

Grudaire

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Let's face it if anyone went through all phone conversations I/we had over last 10 years would all be ok?

In fairness its only work phone conversations....

... from around the time they were begging for €7Billion of the state (ie you and me).

Lets not get all high and mighty tbf, these tapes coming out is hardly justice for the white collar crimes committed

realitykeeper

The antics at Anglo and other banks tends to be viewed as a misdemeanor by politicians because it is a white collar crime, - the type of crime most associated with their own profession. If the likes of Gerry Adams were to compare the criminal behavior of the bankers with a gunman or bomber he would be derided by all parties for doing so. However, the consequences of costing the Irish taxpayer tens of billions of euro is likely to be far more devastating in the greater scheme of things than a petrol bomb attack on the house of a drug pusher or the shooting of some such individual. Disclaimer: I am not a Sinner.

What the executives at these banks have done is very wrong. Given the devastating consequences the Irish people will have to deal with I believe they should be hunted down in the same way the Isrealis are hunting down the Nazi war criminals even to this day. There should be no reprieve or rest for these individuals even if they live to be a hundred. As for "Drummer" - what would the Nazi hunters do? They would find a way to bring him to justice and so should we - the Irish people. Perhaps an Irish equivalent to MI5 might work in dealing with these people. Perhaps the Great Blasket Island could leave the EU and become the Irish equivalent to Guantanamo Bay - I hear its a great spot for water boarding if the Irish James Bond fancies a bit of surfing.

creedp

realitykeeper wrote: »

If the likes of Gerry Adams were to compare the criminal behavior of the bankers with a gunman or bomber he would be derided by all parties for doing so. However, the consequences of costing the Irish taxpayer tens of billions of euro is likely to be far more devastating in the greater scheme of things than a petrol bomb attack on the house of a drug pusher or the shooting of some such individual. Disclaimer: I am not a Sinner.

Don't mind comparing what the the Anglos boys did to that of bomber .. sure nothing they could have done could come even close to what O'Snoddaigh did when it came to the most attrocious crime perpetrated on the Irish people .. the abuse of photocopy toner.

Rightwing

The regulator at his best :

In a statement upon his retirement, Mr Neary said: "I am proud of my distinguished career spanning almost 40 years as a public servant who acted at all times in the public interest."
Mr Neary was given a €630,000 pay-off when he retired and is reported to enjoy an annual pension of more than €100,000.

jmayo

Scofflaw wrote: »

The Garda investigation has apparently listed to all these tapes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Speaking of investigations where are they ?
I seem to remember certain posters around here talking about being patient for investigations to return with findings.

Well how many years is it now and have we heard from Office of Corporate Enforcement, Companies Office, Dept of Finance, Garda, etc ????

We are a joke and these tapes highlight to the world how bankers pi**ed all over the taxpayers, yet 5 years on no one has ever been brought to book.
Hell even the ones who operated out and out ponzi schemes are still not in jail.

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's not insider trading unless bank officials personally profited from that knowledge.

Why do I get the feeling that some within the banks indulged in short selling ?
After all these guys knew where the share price was eventually headed.
We saw how some of banks stockbroking subsidaries tried to con their own clients so why would people think they would not bet against themselves ?

Scofflaw wrote: »

And I'm afraid that banks depositing money with other banks for short periods is standard practice - in order to prove that it was done to bamboozle regulators (and the word "regulatards" nearly happened there of its own accord) you would need to show that it was collusion to that end. And even once you'd done that, I doubt you'd have anything, because that's probably not illegal either - at worst, that's probably a regulatory warning to the bank itself.

Didn't the central bank/IFSRA know about sean fitzs little loan arrangements ?
The government, and by extension the regulatory authorities/dept of finance, had PWC report on Anglo two days before the bank guarantee and the extent of the situation within Anglo must have been somewhat evident.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, you can't make it illegal retrospectively, or at least you can't prosecute someone for something that wasn't a crime at the time, even if it's glaringly obvious it should have been.

If the will of the people is enough then why not ?
How about a charge of economic treason ?

Scofflaw wrote: »

The failure to legislate for the future is disturbing.

cordially,
Scofflaw

For an example of this just look at the legislation on abortion.
We are legislating for something that happened 20 odd years ago, yet we are doing nothing for the situations that was highlighted in the Savita Halappanavar case.
We are a fooking joke and incapable of governing ourselves.

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Still doesn't tell us how Indo got em tho?

From Gardaí, staff, IT people?

Oh come on.
Paul Williams, hello 2+2 =4.

Slideshowbob wrote: »

and it's drip drip sensationalism til then.

Next we'll be hearing Seanie Fitz tell the missus he's constipated some morning.

Let's face it if anyone went through all phone conversations I/we had over last 10 years would all be ok?

Is an ex-employee of a liquidated bank entitled to expect confidentiality and due process on data years later, granted the sensitivities involved here?

You sound like someone who has something to hide.
Most people think the only thing those ex employees are due is a noose.
Funny how excusors for dodgy unethical, even fraudulent, behaviour always seek due process.

BFDCH.

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Still doesn't tell us how Indo got em tho?

From Gardaí, staff, IT people?

and it's drip drip sensationalism til then.

Next we'll be hearing Seanie Fitz tell the missus he's constipated some morning.

Let's face it if anyone went through all phone conversations I/we had over last 10 years would all be ok?

Is an ex-employee of a liquidated bank entitled to expect confidentiality and due process on data years later, granted the sensitivities involved here?

what the flying **** are you on about?
have you ever done anything like what they have done? They fckt our whole country over, laughed about what they are doing, lied about what they were doing/lied again about what they did, made more money since they did this than most people could make in their lifetime and you think they should be entitled to something more? I think we have some entitlements here- these ***** should be hunted.

gaius c

Deleted User wrote: »

I hope it is finally clear to those who supported the bank bailout that it was the wrong move.

Yes and no but including Anglo in it was certainly the doubleplus wrong thing to do.

gaius c

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Still doesn't tell us how Indo got em tho?

From Gardaí, staff, IT people?

Or a northern businessman and former shareholder who would have gained access to the tapes during his court case against them?

Scofflaw

jmayo wrote: »

Speaking of investigations where are they ?
I seem to remember certain posters around here talking about being patient for investigations to return with findings.

Well how many years is it now and have we heard from Office of Corporate Enforcement, Companies Office, Dept of Finance, Garda, etc ????

We are a joke and these tapes highlight to the world how bankers pi**ed all over the taxpayers, yet 5 years on no one has ever been brought to book.
Hell even the ones who operated out and out ponzi schemes are still not in jail.

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/gallery/2012/07/24/arrest-of-former-anglo-executives/

I think you may be confusing "stuff I think is wrong" with "things that are actually illegal".

jmayo wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling that some within the banks indulged in short selling ?
After all these guys knew where the share price was eventually headed.
We saw how some of banks stockbroking subsidaries tried to con their own clients so why would people think they would not bet against themselves ?

People might think it, but that means nothing unless it's shown to have happened.

jmayo wrote: »

Didn't the central bank/IFSRA know about sean fitzs little loan arrangements ?
The government, and by extension the regulatory authorities/dept of finance, had PWC report on Anglo two days before the bank guarantee and the extent of the situation within Anglo must have been somewhat evident.

There's a 2009 PWC report on Anglo, but a 2008 one? There was a Merrill Lynch one, but as far as I recall, its view of what Anglo needed was even rosier than the €7bn they plucked out of their arses.

jmayo wrote: »

If the will of the people is enough then why not ?
How about a charge of economic treason ?

Because you cannot know to avoid what is not illegal at the time. We could have virtually everybody over 40 in the country on a retrospective charge of driving without a seatbelt if we wanted.

jmayo wrote: »

For an example of this just look at the legislation on abortion.
We are legislating for something that happened 20 odd years ago, yet we are doing nothing for the situations that was highlighted in the Savita Halappanavar case.
We are a fooking joke and incapable of governing ourselves.

It has certainly been said before.

jmayo wrote: »

Oh come on.
Paul Williams, hello 2+2 =4.

You sound like someone who has something to hide.
Most people think the only thing those ex employees are due is a noose.
Funny how excusors for dodgy unethical, even fraudulent, behaviour always seek due process.

Innocent until proven guilty is not a phrase with much resonance for the lynch mob, it's true. But suspension of due process because "everyone knows they're guilty" isn't strongly associated with justice.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Grudaire

Scofflaw wrote: »

Because you cannot know to avoid what is not illegal at the time. We could have virtually everybody over 40 in the country on a retrospective charge of driving without a seatbelt if we wanted.

I know that you are really arguing for due process and level and fair minded heads in the meantime,

however I'm a bit confused because your posts seem to imply that the Anglo execs etc acted within the law.

Is that really the case? I don't see how they could have avoided breaching some law with the nonsense they got upto

Busted Flat.

Listening to the PK show this morning, someone claimed that the Gardai, had the tapes for years. My question is how did Paul Williams get his hands on them. Over all the years PW reported on crime figures, in the country through his Garda sources. Has someone in the Gardai passed on prosecution evidence to him to frustrate, a future court case. Why now release the tapes. Simple questions need answer's.

Scofflaw

Cliste wrote: »

I know that you are really arguing for due process and level and fair minded heads in the meantime,

however I'm a bit confused because your posts seem to imply that the Anglo execs etc acted within the law.

Is that really the case? I don't see how they could have avoided breaching some law with the nonsense they got upto

They have committed various breaches of the law, and some of them have already been to court. The Garda investigation is apparently nearly complete, those tapes have already featured in it, and to be honest, I think the source of the tapes is most likely to be the Garda investigation itself.

But in every case like this we'll have furious arguments based on the difference between what people feel is wrong and what is actually illegal. Like everyone else, I feel that there must be something illegal about the tactic of luring the Central Bank (and thus the taxpayer) into supporting a bank whose executives knew it had no chance of independent survival, but I don't see any point in throwing around words like "fraud" and "corruption" unless they're attached to actual illegalities.

In respect of the Anglo strategy, all that springs to mind is the laws on "reckless trading":

A director may be deemed to be knowingly a party to reckless trading where:
(a) having regard to the general knowledge, skill and experience that might reasonably be expected of a person in that position, he ought to have known that his actions or those of the company would cause loss to the creditors; or
(b) if the director was party to the company contracting a debt and did not honestly believe on reasonable grounds that the company would be able to repay the debt.

But the penalties there seem to be limited to unlimited liability, which is, frankly, not very meaningful in the case of €30bn.

Perhaps "fraudulent trading" would apply:

Fraudulent trading arises when a person is knowingly a party to the carrying on of any business of the company with intent to defraud its creditors or for any other fraudulent purpose. A Court is empowered, on application by a receiver, examiner, liquidator, creditor or contributory of the company, to make a director personally liable for the company’s liabilities. A director may also be guilty of a crime of fraudulent trading and liable to either imprisonment for up to seven years and/or fines of up to euro€63,480.

Seven years? Well, it's something - and might actually stick, unlike the non-existent charge of "economic treason".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Listening to the PK show this morning, someone claimed that the Gardai, had the tapes for years. My question is how did Paul Williams get his hands on them. Over all the years PW reported on crime figures, in the country through his Garda sources. Has someone in the Gardai passed on prosecution evidence to him to frustrate, a future court case. Why now release the tapes. Simple questions need answer's.

As far as I can see, the Garda investigation is "nearing completion", so it's possible that the tapes are more, er, 'available' than when they were actively in use in the investigation. They may have been leaked by someone who thought they ought to be heard, they may have been actively sought out by the newspaper after hearing about them from a Garda source - let's face it, they're a sensational scoop in the old-fashioned sense.

It's hard to see a specific political angle here - the Indo is usually pro-FF (albeit not pro-FF enough for FFers), and this doesn't particularly make the current government look bad, or make the previous government look good. I think it may literally be just a scoop for the sake of selling papers.

And unless you're talking about a prosecution of the two people actually on the tapes, I don't see that it would prejudice a trial. In the case of at least one of the participants, Fitzgerald, he doesn't seem to be involved in the negotiations or the determination of the bank's strategy - accessory, perhaps, but I don't see the tape prejudicing any case there.

On the other hand, coming back to the timing again, the Indo would have to use these tapes before they come up in any court case.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Busted Flat.

Scofflaw wrote: »

As far as I can see, the Garda investigation is "nearing completion", so it's possible that the tapes are more, er, 'available' than when they were actively in use in the investigation. They may have been leaked by someone who thought they ought to be heard, they may have been actively sought out by the newspaper after hearing about them from a Garda source - let's face it, they're a sensational scoop in the old-fashioned sense.

It's hard to see a specific political angle here - the Indo is usually pro-FF (albeit not pro-FF enough for FFers), and this doesn't particularly make the current government look bad, or make the previous government look good. I think it may literally be just a scoop for the sake of selling papers.

And unless you're talking about a prosecution of the two people actually on the tapes, I don't see that it would prejudice a trial. In the case of at least one of the participants, Fitzgerald, he doesn't seem to be involved in the negotiations or the determination of the bank's strategy - accessory, perhaps, but I don't see the tape prejudicing any case there.

On the other hand, coming back to the timing again, the Indo would have to use these tapes before they come up in any court case.

cordially,
Scofflaw

My problem with this is, it had to be a Garda source, and it had to be someone involved in the investigation. Is it like the News of the World situation, did money change hands. No offence intended, but something really stinks here.

Bits_n_Bobs

Hard to see the tapes as adding anything of substance to what everyone already knows. Anglo was a basket case, bankers were arrogant ****, albeit ones with more intelligence than idiot regulators/central bank/dept of finance.

Tapes are good for a bit of rabble rousing and not much more apart from shifting a few more copies of the indo.

The biggest unfortunate consequence is my being inflicted with Paul Williams smugness on the radio....ugh....

Scofflaw

Busted Flat. wrote: »

My problem with this is, it had to be a Garda source, and it had to be someone involved in the investigation. Is it like the News of the World situation, did money change hands. No offence intended, but something really stinks here.

That's how "investigative journalism" happens...people give things to journalists that they're not supposed to give them (such as NSA contractors). That can be misused, but without it we're just reading press releases.

cordially,
Scofflaw

michael999999

BFDCH. wrote: »

so what can be done about this? what laws have been broken here? can they be arrested?

if this is true (and i have no reason to doubt it) they should be destroyed. everything they own should be taken from them and they should be stuck in the deepest hole we have.

They will probably be running for fianna fail in the next election. And do you know what, people would still vote for them!

creedp

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Hard to see the tapes as adding anything of substance to what everyone already knows. Anglo was a basket case, bankers were arrogant ****, albeit ones with more intelligence than idiot regulators/central bank/dept of finance.

Interesting when a person's level of intelligence is linked to their ability to commit fraud on a grand scale against taxpayers.

Scofflaw

And here we are, with Anglo doing in respect of the Irish guarantee exactly what I've always said was done with it - using it to pull in deposits from other people's banks:

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/abuse-the-bank-guarantee-dont-get-caught-david-drumm-29369275.html

Mr Drumm can be heard laughing at the financial regulator's concerns about being seen internationally to be "abusing" the bank guarantee in late 2008.

"We won't do anything blatant, but . . . we have to get the money in . . . get the f***in' money in, get it in," he tells his senior manager, John Bowe.

At the time, European leaders including Germany's Angela Merkel and UK chancellor Alistair Darling were alarmed at how the guarantee could affect their banking systems.

But Mr Bowe sang a "comedy" version of the anthem 'Deutschland Uber Alles' and talked about giving "two fingers" to British concern.

Mr Drumm and Mr Bowe are heard laughing at the concerns that the movement of money was causing a rift between Ireland and its EU partners.

Drumm declares to his colleague: "So f***in' what. Just take it anyway . . . stick the fingers up."

Let that be the final nail in the coffin of the idea that our guarantee was somehow foisted on us by Germany or Europe. It was for the benefit of the rats in "our" banks - making me wonder again where the original narrative came from, and who it served.

cordially,
Scofflaw

jmayo

Scofflaw wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/gallery/2012/07/24/arrest-of-former-anglo-executives/

I think you may be confusing "stuff I think is wrong" with "things that are actually illegal".

Ehh company share support schemes are illegal AFAIK.
Yet Anglo engaged in it.
Misleading shareholders/owners and mis representing financial accounts is illegal AFAIK.

Scofflaw wrote: »

People might think it, but that means nothing unless it's shown to have happened.

And even in good old Ireland when insider trading is proven to have happened, the people engaging in it have to be forced to resign rather than get a ride to jail as in the US.

Scofflaw wrote: »

There's a 2009 PWC report on Anglo, but a 2008 one? There was a Merrill Lynch one, but as far as I recall, its view of what Anglo needed was even rosier than the €7bn they plucked out of their arses.

Sorry I thought there was a report in weeks leading up to guranatee.
Maybe I was getting mixed up on the Feb 2009 report and the nationalistaion which happened prior in January.
Another cock up par excellence.

My point still stands that Dept of Finance, IFSRA, CB had to have an idea of how badly exposed they were.
The other banks knew how bad they were and how badly exposed Anglo was to our property market.
There risky bets, like Irish Glass bottle plant, were there for even the public to see.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Innocent until proven guilty is not a phrase with much resonance for the lynch mob, it's true. But suspension of due process because "everyone knows they're guilty" isn't strongly associated with justice.

cordially,
Scofflaw

What due process ?
What justice ?
We had an ex prime minister who was a criminal yet he got a state funeral.

There are examples of breaches of company law, failure to divuldge truthful annual reports leading to misleading shareholders, investment scams, removal of assets to prevent their reposession, yet years later the best we have is some tapes being aired in the media showing some of them laughing at us.

Is that as far as the Garda investigations have gone that they have to use their mouthpiece to air it in the media in the hope that a couple of ex executives are embarassed ?

The problem in this country is there isn't a semblance of justice for white collar criminals.
Oh wait a garlic smuggler got 6 years for not paying duty.
But then look again and you see an elected public offical get to stay in his taxpayer funded job for fiddling his vat returns.

There are even cases of fraudulent behaviour by solicitors and financial consultants, some running ponzi schemes, yet years later no one has seen confiscation of assets and jailtime.

To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, I think the tree of our democracy demands that it be watered with the blood of tyrants (bankers) and patriots (politicans and regulators).

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Listening to the PK show this morning, someone claimed that the Gardai, had the tapes for years. My question is how did Paul Williams get his hands on them. Over all the years PW reported on crime figures, in the country through his Garda sources. Has someone in the Gardai passed on prosecution evidence to him to frustrate, a future court case. Why now release the tapes. Simple questions need answer's.

Why now indeed?
They have been investigating for years and so far we have seen diddly squat bar them bringing in seanie fitz, it appears the designated fallguy, for questioning a few times.

FreudianSlippers

Where are all the people on boards from the past few years that blamed the EU and Eurozone completely for this mess. It's quite clear that this was totally mismanaged at many levels and we were an easy mark for the con.

Scofflaw

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh company share support schemes are illegal AFAIK.
Yet Anglo engaged in it.
Misleading shareholders/owners and mis representing financial accounts is illegal AFAIK.

Sure, but we've come a long way there from the point I made about banks depositing money with each other overnight, which isn't either illegal or extraordinary.

I'm not claiming nothing illegal has happened.

jmayo wrote: »

And even in good old Ireland when insider trading is proven to have happened, the people engaging in it have to be forced to resign rather than get a ride to jail as in the US.

Again, not sure of the relevance to Anglo.

jmayo wrote: »

Sorry I thought there was a report in weeks leading up to guranatee.
Maybe I was getting mixed up on the Feb 2009 report and the nationalistaion which happened prior in January.
Another cock up par excellence.

Yes, I think you're thinking of the Feb 2009 report.

jmayo wrote: »

My point still stands that Dept of Finance, IFSRA, CB had to have an idea of how badly exposed they were.
The other banks knew how bad they were and how badly exposed Anglo was to our property market.
There risky bets, like Irish Glass bottle plant, were there for even the public to see.

That's the point, they didn't. All the evidence says they didn't, and that's what the tapes again make clear. The Financial Regulator and Central bank had no idea what was happening in the banks. Anglo coming in was a brown-trouser day for the very people who were supposed to be overseeing them, and Anglo's deliberately lowball estimate of their needs was clearly a huge shock.

jmayo wrote: »

What due process ?
What justice ?
We had an ex prime minister who was a criminal yet he got a state funeral.

There are examples of breaches of company law, failure to divuldge truthful annual reports leading to misleading shareholders, investment scams, removal of assets to prevent their reposession, yet years later the best we have is some tapes being aired in the media showing some of them laughing at us.

Is that as far as the Garda investigations have gone that they have to use their mouthpiece to air it in the media in the hope that a couple of ex executives are embarassed ?

The problem in this country is there isn't a semblance of justice for white collar criminals.
Oh wait a garlic smuggler got 6 years for not paying duty.
But then look again and you see an elected public offical get to stay in his taxpayer funded job for fiddling his vat returns.

There are even cases of fraudulent behaviour by solicitors and financial consultants, some running ponzi schemes, yet years later no one has seen confiscation of assets and jailtime.

To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, I think the tree of our democracy demands that it be watered with the blood of tyrants (bankers) and patriots (politicans and regulators).



Why now indeed?
They have been investigating for years and so far we have seen diddly squat bar them bringing in seanie fitz, it appears the designated fallguy, for questioning a few times.

They're just not working hard enough on satisfying you, I'm afraid, which is clearly a travesty. Admittedly it might help if you paid attention to what they were actually doing, such a bringing Seanie to court, not for questioning, but there we go.

That said, I agree that we do have a problem both in the failure to have adequate legal safeguards, and then to actually resource and use those safeguards adequately. The ODCE was basically strangled at birth, while the Financial Regulator was from the start given a second hat as a salesman for the IFSC.

The main problem, perhaps, is that the public doesn't understand why we might need such things for ourselves, and are content to let the politicians create cardboard mockups of them to show FDI companies. We don't have, I think, a large enough section of the public whose interests are affected, and whose understanding is engaged, by these issues - and I sometimes think successive governments have done their best, probably unconsciously, to prevent the growth of such a group.

cordially,
Scofflaw

jmayo

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Where are all the people on boards from the past few years that blamed the EU and Eurozone completely for this mess. It's quite clear that this was totally mismanaged at many levels and we were an easy mark for the con.

Eh there was still unanswered questions regarding the ECB and letters to lendahand.
Oh and there is still unanswered questions about the bailout and how the IMF were the only ones advising bondholder burning.

And before you go all balistic, the blame for our getting into the mess in the first place is ours (Ireland as a whole) and it dates back many years, even before the Euro or EU were ever involved with us.

Oh and I blame the Germans.
If they had invaded us then maybe the ancestors of the cretins that ran this country into the ground would have been lynched as quislings (apples don't fall far from the tree as they say) at then end of the war.

Scofflaw

jmayo wrote: »

Eh there was still unanswered questions regarding the ECB and letters to lendahand.

Not in respect of the guarantee, except for people who confuse 2010 with 2008. That the ECB had to put pressure on the Irish government in 2010 is hardly a surprise, though, given we all, I think, recall the government pretending right up to the last minute that they definitely didn't need a bailout. It reached Chemical Ali proportions, as far as I recall.

jmayo wrote: »

Oh and there is still unanswered questions about the bailout and how the IMF were the only ones advising bondholder burning.

Well, until it was torpedoed by the US Secretary of State, that is.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Gringo180

Ok folks there is a protest organised for Thursday at 1pm outside Dail Eireann. It will be my first time attending one so dont know really what to expect but looking forward to it as I am sick to my stomach of whats going on in the country. Hope to see some of yous there, make your voice heard!!!!

Formalhaut

If this was the U.S. these sociopaths would be doing the perp walk in handcuffs by now, and looking down the barrel of a 100 year jail sentence.

The U.S. government is frightened of its population because its population is armed and ****ing dangerous.

Whereas the Irish roll their eyes, say 'ah, sure' and cry into their pints. Time we made our presence felt guys.

raymon

Gringo180 wrote: »

Ok folks there is a protest organised for Thursday at 1pm outside Dail Eireann. It will be my first time attending one so dont know really what to expect but looking forward to it as I am sick to my stomach of whats going on in the country. Hope to see some of yous there, make your voice heard!!!!

Hi Gringo.

Is this a protest against , Anglo Management or against FF , or Brian Lenihan, or just a general protest against " some politicians"

jmayo

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sure, but we've come a long way there from the point I made about banks depositing money with each other overnight, which isn't either illegal or extraordinary.

I'm not claiming nothing illegal has happened.

Did I ever say interbank deposits are illegal.
Although the 7 billion rent a desposit could be viewed as misleading the markets through altering the figures.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Again, not sure of the relevance to Anglo.

My point about inside trading is just an example of our pi** poor corporate governance and dealing with big white collar crime.
Another example would be the stockbrokers and their misleading clients or their tax evasion facilitation for their owners executives.

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's the point, they didn't. All the evidence says they didn't, and that's what the tapes again make clear. The Financial Regulator and Central bank had no idea what was happening in the banks. Anglo coming in was a brown-trouser day for the very people who were supposed to be overseeing them, and Anglo's deliberately lowball estimate of their needs was clearly a huge shock.

The CB/IFSRA knew about lots of unethical behaviour in the banks.
Eugene McErlean proves that.

There are claims that they knew about seanie's loan arrangement for years.
AFIAK They knew about and condoned the ILP rent a deposit to Anglo.

In the first few months of 2008 there was indications quinn had built up a big stake in Anglo.
Did CB/IFSRA/Dept of Finance under cowen not clarify this ?

As required by irish law, when and who gave approval for quinn to affectively own more than 10% of Anglo ?

Did they know about the golden ten and if they did then did they know where they got the money to purchase the quinns holding.

Oh wait dept officals/cowen had lunches and played rounds of golf both with bank executives/board members and members of the golden ten. :rolleyes:

So forgive me for not believeing the poor old Irish government, dept of finance and regulatory authorities were always in the dark and plain hoodwinked.
I might consider some of them idiots, but they didn't get to where they were if they hadn't have some cop on.
Cute hoors always keep abreast of where the next kickback is coming from.

Scofflaw wrote: »

They're just not working hard enough on satisfying you, I'm afraid, which is clearly a travesty. Admittedly it might help if you paid attention to what they were actually doing, such a bringing Seanie to court, not for questioning, but there we go.

Oh yes wasn't it two trips to the District court/Dublin Circuit Criminal Court in March of this year.
And he is to go on trial in the Dublin Circuit Criminal Court for breaches of company law for his non disclosure of company loans.
Oh and isn't that trial earmakred for 2014 ?

How many years after it came out was it ?
Oh yes it came out in late 2008.

So it took them over 4 years to just bring charges on that one issue, not even a trial mind you.
Fook me when they say the wheels of justice move slowly they aint kidding are they. :rolleyes:

Scofflaw wrote: »

That said, I agree that we do have a problem both in the failure to have adequate legal safeguards, and then to actually resource and use those safeguards adequately. The ODCE was basically strangled at birth, while the Financial Regulator was from the start given a second hat as a salesman for the IFSC.

The main problem, perhaps, is that the public doesn't understand why we might need such things for ourselves, and are content to let the politicians create cardboard mockups of them to show FDI companies. We don't have, I think, a large enough section of the public whose interests are affected, and whose understanding is engaged, by these issues - and I sometimes think successive governments have done their best, probably unconsciously, to prevent the growth of such a group.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Ehh didn't bertie try to strangle ODCE ?
bertie and corporate governance.
Surely I would thought he would be a fan of corporate ethics.

Callan57

creedp wrote: »

Interesting when a person's level of intelligence is linked to their ability to commit fraud on a grand scale against taxpayers.

Yea and run their business over a cliff in the process - highly intelligent boys right enough. :rolleyes:

Scofflaw

Formalhaut wrote: »

If this was the U.S. these sociopaths would be doing the perp walk in handcuffs by now, and looking down the barrel of a 100 year jail sentence.

The U.S. government is frightened of its population because its population is armed and ****ing dangerous.

Whereas the Irish roll their eyes, say 'ah, sure' and cry into their pints. Time we made our presence felt guys.

And the US has such a good record in respect of summary 'justice'...I'm sure they'll give Snowden a fair trial.

amused,
Scofflaw

jmayo

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not in respect of the guarantee, except for people who confuse 2010 with 2008. That the ECB had to put pressure on the Irish government in 2010 is hardly a surprise, though, given we all, I think, recall the government pretending right up to the last minute that they definitely didn't need a bailout. It reached Chemical Ali proportions, as far as I recall.

Pot and kettle.
And I seem to remember you doing a bit of pretending they weren't here as well.

Ddin't you try to stop us discussing the possibility of the IMF coming to town?

Formalhaut

Scofflaw wrote: »

And the US has such a good record in respect of summary 'justice'...I'm sure they'll give Snowden a fair trial.

amused,
Scofflaw

Oh I'm not bigging up the US by any means. But they make an example of people who commit fraud, whereas we can't even be arsed to start a small riot.

Scofflaw

jmayo wrote: »

Pot and kettle.
And I seem to remember you doing a bit of pretending they weren't here as well.

Ddin't you try to stop us discussing the possibility of the IMF coming to town?

Nope. Just pointed out that speculation was speculation. I know that upsets some people, particularly those who claim they know.

I'm doing it again at the moment, come to that - pointing out that the people who said "I always knew it was a scam" have nothing to pat themselves on the back about, because their belief had nothing to do with evidence, and everything to do with mindless reflex cynicism. Same goes for the PRISM leaks - it doesn't justify the conspiracy theory muppets' paranoia, which is still exactly as convincing, because exactly as well grounded in reality, as similar claims from the locked wards in John of God's.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Formalhaut wrote: »

Oh I'm not bigging up the US by any means. But they make an example of people who commit fraud, whereas we can't even be arsed to start a small riot.

What we need, though, is a change of law, not a riot. And perhaps we need a change in public attitude to venality, too, because as far as I can see, it's tolerated in Ireland because the Irish public tolerates it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Formalhaut

Scofflaw wrote: »

What we need, though, is a change of law, not a riot. And perhaps we need a change in public attitude to venality, too, because as far as I can see, it's tolerated in Ireland because the Irish public tolerates it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

You're not going to get a change in law until you get a change in political attitudes. And to get that the political class needs to be afraid of the electorate. ALL concessions to democracy have come after ordinary people have mobilised and fought for them - the political class have a vested interest in the status quo - why would they want change? For too long in this country they have relied on apathy and venality among the population - a bit more volatility from the people might focus their minds on their jobs.

Gringo180

raymon wrote: »

Hi Gringo.

Is this a protest against , Anglo Management or against FF , or Brian Lenihan, or just a general protest against " some politicians"

Here is some details raymon

https://www.facebook.com/events/584494138262327/

Organisers have changed the location to The GPO.

listermint

Scofflaw wrote: »

What we need, though, is a change of law, not a riot. And perhaps we need a change in public attitude to venality, too, because as far as I can see, it's tolerated in Ireland because the Irish public tolerates it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

And how do you get the ?


Waiting around till the next time one of them knocks on your door, or even better knows to pass your door because you gave out to him last time around.


People power is what is required and thats how to focus and change attitudes.

Scofflaw

Formalhaut wrote: »

You're not going to get a change in law until you get a change in political attitudes. And to get that the political class needs to be afraid of the electorate. ALL concessions to democracy have come after ordinary people have mobilised and fought for them - the political class have a vested interest in the status quo - why would they want change? For too long in this country they have relied on apathy and venality among the population - a bit more volatility from the people might focus their minds on their jobs.

Temporarily, but yes. I have hopes that public attitudes are also changing, now that people see not only that a laissez-faire attitude to venality is costing them, but that they're being laughed at by those who profit from their tolerance. Not even laughed at, in fact - not even considered.

cordially,
Scofflaw

AlekSmart

Scofflaw wrote: »

What we need, though, is a change of law, not a riot. And perhaps we need a change in public attitude to venality too, because as far as I can see, it's tolerated in Ireland because the Irish public tolerates it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Quite the point there for sure.

The nation as a whole was in no mood to listen to nay-sayers in the pre 2008 era.

The Anglo "Lads" quite accurately reflect the very type of businessman which pre 2008 Ireland spawned and sent hither and yon to strut their stuff on the World stage.

WE,as in the lumpen Irish,could'nt get enough of the swinging trench-coat,laptop savvy young buck with the high-end Audi....no wonder we ended up with a population who had to turn to Eastern Europe to fix our dripping taps,change our fuses and repair our timberwork.

We also continue to convienently brush aside the fact that the main Political Players in this tragi-comedy were consistent Poll-Toppers in election after election over many long years.....;)

Sierra Oscar

Scofflaw wrote: »

What we need, though, is a change of law, not a riot.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Pretty sickening to think that legislation surrounding white collar crime has not been built on since this all came to light. We are nearly five years on from the emergence of this current financial crisis, yet still no meaningful movement in introducing robust legislation to target white collar crime. If such legislation is not brought forward then this will happen again.

I'm not just blaming the current government either. The entire political system seems to be failing to grapple with this. The government introduced some measures after coming into power, but that's about it. The civil service certainly don't want to encourage movement in this area either, that's for sure. We keep hearing the standard 'it's hard to legislate to tackle white collar crime' - but I'm sure if the will was there then something meaningful could be done.

Scofflaw

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Pretty sickening to think that legislation surrounding white collar crime has not been built on since this all came to light. We are nearly five years on from the emergence of this current financial crisis, yet still no meaningful movement in introducing robust legislation to target white collar crime. If such legislation is not brought forward then this will happen again.

I'm not just blaming the current government either. The entire political system seems to be failing to grapple with this. The government introduced some measures after coming into power, but that's about it. The civil service certainly don't want to encourage movement in this area either, that's for sure. We keep hearing the standard 'it's hard to legislate to tackle white collar crime' - but I'm sure if the will was there then something meaningful could be done.

Investigating white collar crime is genuinely tricky, and unfortunately not a vote-grabber because of that. There are a lot of people getting red-faced over the "lack" of a Garda investigation, when there is a Garda investigation - which is almost certainly the source of these tapes. Yes, it's been running for several years now, because the Fraud Unit aren't investigating someone dipping their fingers in the till at the sweet shop, but the actions of a multi-billion balance sheet bank operating in multiple jurisdictions.

What people want is immediate action, and never mind innocence. People are suckers for that, but it has tended, historically, to be associated with authoritarian regimes, who are then in turn generally associated with worse. It's how authoritarian regimes sell themselves to the people - and if it came to a choice between even another €30bn in taxpayers' money going to a bust bank and living in an authoritarian regime with powers of arbitrary arrest for the unpopular, I'll put my hand in my pocket straight away.

cordially,
Scofflaw

shedweller

jmayo wrote: »

And before you go all balistic, the blame for our getting into the mess in the first place is ours (Ireland as a whole) and it dates back many years, even before the Euro or EU were ever involved with us..

You're having a laugh, surely? This is our fault? Were we rallying on the streets looking for more money down the years? I saw none. All i saw were house prices climbing due to slack lending policies and cheap money. I didn't protest for that.
How come there wasn't a regulator with balls to call a halt to this?
Regulators in other countries can do it. I believe in Sweden you can't sell your house for more than inflation has risen in the time you have it. You can only add on any money you pumped into the house in the form of extension costs, diy etc.
And it's tightly regulated. They seem to be doing ok too.

So please, spare us that insulting line that it's our fault.

Godge

maninasia wrote: »

McWilliams guarantee did not included bailing out all the bondholders.

McWilliams guarantee included everything Anglo wanted. Another patsy he was.