Irish Rail extortion

thebigbiffo

I wanted to relate back my story and see what everyone in here thinks or whether you've ever gone to court against Irish Rail.

I am a yearly taxsaver ticket holder and pay IR about €2136 per year - I suppose double that when tax is taken into account.

I lost my wallet and smart card at a wedding a few weeks ago and on my return to work I decided to get the train, head straight to Connolly and get a replacement. I couldn't produce my ticket when asked and was fined. Which is actually fair enough - that's how it should be. But this is what I am disgusted by: I appealed immediately, in person that day at the RPU office behind Connolly with my renewed ticket and was told to e-mail them, which I did.

My argument is simple: a system check tells them I have paid for my journey and am a valid yearly ticket holder. Should this not be enough to have the fine quashed? Apparently not as the €118 euro fine stood AND they added another €50 because I was fined (rightly) 3-4 years ago for having no ticket.

I think this is a complete injustice. It is very clear I had paid for a valid ticket and it's a matter of record - how can they allow the fine stand?

I have no intention of paying as to me it's a matter of principle, but how will I get on in court? Anyone any experience of this kind of thing?

LXFlyer

I'm afraid it's no different to forgetting it - look at point 9 in the leaflet below.
http://www.irishrail.ie/media/FixedPenaltyDLLeafletV.51.pdf

Duggys Housemate

thebigbiffo wrote: »

I wanted to relate back my story and see what everyone in here thinks or whether you've ever gone to court against Irish Rail.

I am a yearly taxsaver ticket holder and pay IR about €2136 per year - I suppose double that when tax is taken into account.

I lost my wallet and smart card at a wedding a few weeks ago and on my return to work I decided to get the train, head straight to Connolly and get a replacement. I couldn't produce my ticket when asked and was fined. Which is actually fair enough - that's how it should be. But this is what I am disgusted by: I appealed immediately, in person that day at the RPU office behind Connolly with my renewed ticket and was told to e-mail them, which I did.

My argument is simple: a system check tells them I have paid for my journey and am a valid yearly ticket holder. Should this not be enough to have the fine quashed? Apparently not as the €118 euro fine stood AND they added another €50 because I was fined (rightly) 3-4 years ago for having no ticket.

I think this is a complete injustice. It is very clear I had paid for a valid ticket and it's a matter of record - how can they allow the fine stand?

I have no intention of paying as to me it's a matter of principle, but how will I get on in court? Anyone any experience of this kind of thing?

Legally you probably have to pay as I think it says you need to produce the card. Morally they are money grubbing buffoons.

If you cycle to work, do that. Or car share.

thebigbiffo

Yes, I've seen that condition before, that you must be in possession of a valid ticket, but this, legally sound or not, is what I want to dispute.

Surely it cannot be justified to charge someone twice for their journey - this is what I want to hear from the judge.

I accept that the fine must be issued - but I think it's a disgrace that in the case of a yearly ticket holder it's not quashed 100% of the time on appeal. Whether that be down to losing it, forgetting it, whatever: It's in black and white and a matter of record that I have paid in full for the journey in question.

I'm probably going to be fined more if the judge doesn't accept that argument, but I'm not going to pay it and if that lands me in the Joy for a couple of nights, so be it. I really feel this is extortion. No where else would you be expected to pay for your service twice.

jimmycrackcorm

If it was me I wouldn't pay the fine but go to court (assuming they would bother). I'd take my chances pointing out to a judge that I had a valid ticket.

May not apply the same but many charges for motoring offences where documents were not produced but subsequently shown to be valid are dropped in court.

Gatling

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If it was me I wouldn't pay the fine but go to court (assuming they would bother). I'd take my chances pointing out to a judge that I had a valid ticket.

May not apply the same but many charges for motoring offences where documents were not produced but subsequently shown to be valid are dropped in court.

He hasn't got a ticket on train correct me if I'm wrong op

thebigbiffo

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If it was me I wouldn't pay the fine but go to court (assuming they would bother). I'd take my chances pointing out to a judge that I had a valid ticket.

May not apply the same but many charges for motoring offences where documents were not produced but subsequently shown to be valid are dropped in court.

To my mind this is what should happen, and I'm going to take my chances in court because I simply cannot accept that a judge will outright say I should have paid twice, not when it's very clear I have already paid for my ticket - and a pretty penny at that.

Duggys Housemate

thebigbiffo wrote: »

To my mind this is what should happen, and I'm going to take my chances in court because I simply cannot accept that a judge will outright say I should have paid twice, not when it's very clear I have already paid for my ticket - and a pretty penny at that.

If you set a precedent tell us all so we can quote the case in future:-)

good luck.

Duggys Housemate

Actually no need:

According to this you can get away without a ticket if [you]

Forgot monthly/annual ticket (send photocopy with matching CIE id card within 14 days)

thebigbiffo

Gatling wrote: »

He hasn't got a ticket on train correct me if I'm wrong op

No I didn't have it on the train, but it's a matter of record that I am a valid ticket holder - which is where my problem with the unsuccessful appeal lies.

thebigbiffo

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Actually no need:

According to this you can get away without a ticket if [you]

Forgot monthly/annual ticket (send photocopy with matching CIE id card within 14 days)

I will be using this in court (if it comes to that!). Thank you very much!

Duggys Housemate

So they were lying. Is there a way to go to court, get "self representation" costs? That is the cost of not being at work that day?

namloc1980

OP is dead right. The fine is rightfully issued on the day but it should be quashed on production of the valid ticket. Appalling customer service.

corktina

what you should have done I guess is paid for a ticket to go get the lost one sorted and then asked for a refund for that ticket.

bk

My opinion is that in the case of a monthly/annual ticket, the fine should automatically be dropped on proof of the ticket.

However some sort of admin fee, for instance €10 should still be charged, as there is a cost to issuing the fine, etc.

Losty Dublin

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Actually no need:

According to this you can get away without a ticket if [you]

Forgot monthly/annual ticket (send photocopy with matching CIE id card within 14 days)

1) That is information gained Railusers Ireland's site and not Irish Rail's site or T+C; you would want to be careful in how you use it at a court case as it isn't presented as anything but general information.

2) It also says that they are possible grounds for appeal; it's not a given that any of those circumstances will succeed.

With that said, do send in your proof of holding an annual pass and relevant ID and include a covering letter apologizing for the mix up. However, the fact that you didn't pay a previous penalty fare won't auger well for your case so don't expect much in the way of clemency; it will also go against you if it goes as far as court.

Duggys Housemate

Losty Dublin wrote: »

1) That is information gained Railusers Ireland's site and not Irish Rail's site or T+C; you would want to be careful in how you use it at a court case as it isn't presented as anything but general information.

2) It also says that they are possible grounds for appeal; it's not a given that any of those circumstances will succeed.

With that said, do send in your proof of holding an annual pass and relevant ID and include a covering letter apologizing for the mix up. However, the fact that you didn't pay a previous penalty fare won't auger well for your case so don't expect much in the way of clemency; it will also go against you if it goes as far as court.

Employee?

The rail users website are probably in a good position to know the law.

The fact is he already both showed and then emailed the ticket - did you not read that?

What he needs now is to counter sue for costs in a court case which will certainly go his way.

Losty Dublin

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Employee?

The rail users website are probably in a good position to know the law.

The fact is he already both showed and then emailed the ticket - did you not read that?

What he needs now is to counter sue for costs in a court case which will certainly go his way.

No, he said that he went in to get a replacement annual ticket and he hadn't got a valid ticket to travel when stopped, hence a fixed penalty ticket. Either he didn't e mail them in any or any proof of same or he did and and the appeal still failed. I'm not saying the RUI page isn't useful and it is very informative but it does say that it is possible grounds and it does not guarantee that they will result in success.

As for a counter sue thats rather unlikely to apply here as ticket fine cases are not a civil case. Should it go to court then OP will need professional legal advice.

Duggys Housemate

Losty Dublin wrote: »

No, he said that he went in to get a replacement annual ticket and he hadn't got a valid ticket to travel when stopped, hence a fixed penalty ticket. Either he didn't e mail them in any or any proof of same or he did and and the appeal still failed. I'm not saying the RUI page isn't useful and it is very informative but it does say that it is possible grounds and it does not guarantee that they will result in success.

As for a counter sue thats rather unlikely to apply here as ticket fine cases are not a civil case. Should it go to court then OP will need professional legal advice.

He said.

But this is what I am disgusted by: I appealed immediately, in person that day at the RPU office behind Connolly with my renewed ticket and was told to e-mail them, which I did

And they didn't accept that. He had a record of the email.

The "possible" includes all the other excuses like claiming the station was empty. That would need to be proven. This seems like a certain win.

AlekSmart

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

He said.

But this is what I am disgusted by: I appealed immediately, in person that day at the RPU office behind Connolly with my renewed ticket and was told to e-mail them, which I did

And they didn't accept that. He had a record of the email.

The "possible" includes all the other excuses like claiming the station was empty. That would need to be proven. This seems like a certain win.

I'd be somewhat cautious of certainty when dealing with any Legal Interpretations of situations.....it could end up as a famous last word,should the OP get the "wrong" Judge on the "wrong" day......:(

Losty Dublin

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

He said.

But this is what I am disgusted by: I appealed immediately, in person that day at the RPU office behind Connolly with my renewed ticket and was told to e-mail them, which I did

And they didn't accept that. He had a record of the email.

The "possible" includes all the other excuses like claiming the station was empty. That would need to be proven. This seems like a certain win.

Hence my statement "Either he didn't e mail them in any or any proof of same or he did and and the appeal still failed." and the follow on "
With that said, do send in your proof of holding an annual pass and relevant ID and include a covering letter apologizing for the mix up. ". A formal letter will look better than an e mail but that's his prerogative.

Either way, should he not pay the fine and it goes to court then he will need good legal advice if he chooses to defend his case whatever grounds they may be.

Duggys Housemate

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Hence my statement "Either he didn't e mail them in any or any proof of same or he did and and the appeal still failed." and the follow on "
With that said, do send in your proof of holding an annual pass and relevant ID and include a covering letter apologizing for the mix up. ". A formal letter will look better than an e mail but that's his prerogative.

Either way, should he not pay the fine and it goes to court then he will need good legal advice if he chooses to defend his case whatever grounds they may be.

Lol. He can represent himself. Show the email.

Companies can make up any rules they want but they are subject to contract law. He's paid for travel. He produced proof in a timely manner that he had entered into a contract for annual travel on the rail even though he had no id earlier on that day, he produced proof within 24 hours.

There is no other case.

BenShermin

corktina wrote: »

what you should have done I guess is paid for a ticket to go get the lost one sorted and then asked for a refund for that ticket.

I 100% believe the OP should have his fine quashed but I don't understand why he didn't buy a ticket and later seek a refund.

I've been in quiet stations in the UK where the staff didn't know how to sell me a sailrail to Ireland. In those situations I've always bought a ticket to a station where I know the staff would be able to sell my sailrail ticket. One example of this was when I was trying to get from Harwich to Dublin, staff at Harwich couldn't sell me a sailrail so I bought a ticket to London Euston instead where I knew the staff would be able to sell me a sailrail. Once i got home one letter to National Express (who ran the service at the time) customer care outlining my case and they fully refunded the full cost of my Harwich to London Euston railway ticket.

Personally I'd never risk getting a fine or the standard fare, even if the railway company is in the wrong. Pressurising a company to give you your deserved refund is a lot easier then facing a court appearance IMO.

Duggys Housemate

BenShermin wrote: »

I 100% believe the OP should have his fine quashed but I don't understand why he didn't buy a ticket and later seek a refund.

I've been in quiet stations in the UK where the staff didn't know how to sell me a sailrail to Ireland. In those situations I've always bought a ticket to a station where I know the staff would be able to sell my sailrail ticket. One example of this was when I was trying to get from Harwich to Dublin, staff at Harwich couldn't sell me a sailrail so I bought a ticket to London Euston instead where I knew the staff would be able to sell me a sailrail. Once i got home one letter to National Express (who ran the service at the time) customer care outlining my case and they fully refunded the full cost of my Harwich to London Euston railway ticket.

Personally I'd never risk getting a fine or the standard fare, even if the railway company is in the wrong. Pressurising a company to give you your deserved refund is a lot easier then facing a court appearance IMO.

And this is how they screw people. In any case you were different. You had a bigger burden of proof "the other station couldn't sell". There was no prior contract.

Here there is a prior contract. iE are contracted to provide a service on timely production of an annual prepaid ticket. That ticket was produced on the same day. He is in contract. They are not only refusing to fufil their part of the contract but also trying to bully a customer into extra extortionate fares and fines.

partyatmygaff

Nothing out of the ordinary for Irish Rail. Even if you've paid them over and above the fare expected for your journey, they'll look for any excuse to fine you.

They don't look at the big picture. All you are is a good customer who's paid their fare and fell afoul of one of their rules. Any reasonable company with the slightest bit of business sense would look at the big picture and see that it makes no sense whatsoever to fine and throw the book at a customer who's done absolutely nothing wrong from a moral point of view.

They'll do their best to extract an easy €100-150 from your wallet regardless of how nonsensical it is or how much disdain it'll earn them from their customers. You've got a reasonably good case (although that old fine might make things a bit less certain).

BenShermin

Don't disagree with you at all Duggy. It's frankly disgraceful customer care to a loyal customer, and all it will do is play into the hands of the likes of the private bus operators.

Personally though (even if the transport company is in the wrong) I'd never travel without a valid ticket. Seeking refunds in my experience has to be easier than dealing with an Irish judge who most likely has never stepped foot on any public transport.

goingnowhere

The issue is here the OP, knew they did not have a ticket when the boarded, it was lost/stolen etc

I lost my wallet and smart card at a wedding a few weeks ago and on my return to work I decided to get the train, head straight to Connolly and get a replacement. I couldn't produce my ticket when asked and was fined. Which is actually fair enough - that's how it should be.

As such the rail users ireland approach, which is reasonable is only valid if you produce the original ticket, a replacement issued after the event is no good, it has to be the ticket valid at the time in question.

Did the OP report the loss/theft to the gardai?

The conditions of carriage are very simple, you must have the pass, ticket or other authority of travel with you at all times. OP did not through no negligence of Irish Rail and rightly, as even the OP admit was fined.

The correct policy would be
1. Pay the fare to Dublin, get a replacement
2. Call the office and arrange to get a replacement sent out (they are normally quite good with this)

partyatmygaff

Just because Irish Rails have a set of rules does not mean they're perfect and are never to be questioned or challenged.

Fining and making criminals out of people who've paid their fare and in no way, shape or form wronged anyone is boneheaded stupidity. H The kind that'll lose them customers and money. He could've bought a ticket and then had it refunded but ultimately, from a financial point of view what difference would that have made to either him or them?

markpb

FWIW I can't see an appeal where the OP bought a ticket and asked for a refund being successful. What's to stop him getting a used ticket from a friend and saying he had to buy it because he lost his annual ticket? Also since there's no external pressure and no benefit to the in doing so, I can't see IR bothering - they're not the most customer friendly organisation at the best of times.

Losty Dublin

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Lol. He can represent himself. Show the email.

Companies can make up any rules they want but they are subject to contract law. He's paid for travel.

Traveling on a train without a valid ticket on you is an offence and is covered under State Law. Contract Law isn't relevant as OP didn't have his ticket on him as per T+C's.

Hilly Bill

OP, you havent been charged twice. You got fined for not having your ticket with you simple as, its far from extortion.

What were you charged for the replacement?

Grandeeod

Let the little boys who want to toe the party line do so. My advice and based on aforementioned road traffic offense scenarios is go to court, explain the situation, show the ticket and watch it get dumped out on its ass. If it even goes that far seeing as though you have a recorded appeal with credible grounds.

I fear that a lot of the advice given here is from people that have never had the reason or balls to stand in a District Court and argue their case if they believe they have been wronged. I have, in relation to minor road traffic offenses (that are also deemed to be against state law) and got them flung out. Technically you did nothing wrong and technically you didn't abide by the T &Cs. In a District Court moving at lightening pace, technicalities are an inconvenience. Let me quote you one of my examples. Many years ago I got a ticket for not having a Road Tax disc. I went to the local council and showed them the Disc and explained that it had fallen out of its holder. They quoted the law, which basically states the ticket is for non-display and refused to overturn it. **** happens I explained. No move on their part. I went to court and explained in a calm fashion what had happened along with providing proof that the vehicle was correctly taxed at the time the ticket was issued. The Judge was furious with the council for wasting Court time. Flung out. Yes there are laws and they are there for a reason. Technically I broke a law, but flexibility and common sense must come into play before Court action is taken, IMO from a District Court Judges position, they only want to see it before them, when its cut and dried. That opinion is also shared by my many colleagues in the legal profession.

Irish Rail are chancers if they take this all the way.

Please Note: This is not definitive legal advice. Always seek the advice of a legal professional in the correct setting.

namloc1980

Hilly Bill wrote: »

OP, you havent been charged twice. You got fined for not having your ticket with you simple as, its far from extortion.

What were you charged for the replacement?

It's awful customer service. I work in a service sector and this is not how you treat a good customer. They can clearly see that he has a paid up annual ticket which brought in nearly €4k in revenue for the company and yet try to squeeze another few hundred out of him. You're right, it's not extortion, it's far worse and this case speaks volumes of the culture within Irish Rail.

Grandeeod

namloc1980 wrote: »

It's awful customer service. I work in a service sector and this is not how you treat a good customer. They can clearly see that he has a paid up annual ticket which brought in nearly €4k in revenue for the company and yet try to squeeze another few hundred out of him. You're right, it's not extortion, it's far worse and this case speaks volumes of the culture within Irish Rail.

It is appalling customer service indeed and it thrives on people not challenging it. The worst place to come for advice is this forum. One would be better off asking a dead duck in a pond at the best of times. I say this with the greatest of respect to those who defend the Irish Rail position, but seriously lads, its bonkers if this kind of stuff makes it to a District Court.

Hilly Bill

namloc1980 wrote: »

It's awful customer service. I work in a service sector and this is not how you treat a good customer. They can clearly see that he has a paid up annual ticket which brought in nearly €4k in revenue for the company and yet try to squeeze another few hundred out of him. You're right, it's not extortion, it's far worse and this case speaks volumes of the culture within Irish Rail.

If the OP hadnt lost the ticket then the op wouldnt have been fined. If the OP had bought a ticket to go in and get a replacement then the op wouldnt have been fined. The fine is for not being able to produce a valid ticket at the time of travel. The op has been fined before for not having a ticket so you can see why its being pursued further.
Where are you going with your another few hundred?

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

It is appalling customer service indeed and it thrives on people not challenging it. The worst place to come for advice is this forum. One would be better off asking a dead duck in a pond at the best of times. I say this with the greatest of respect to those who defend the Irish Rail position, but seriously lads, its bonkers if this kind of stuff makes it to a District Court.

So the OP can ignore the advice you gave in your earlier post then ?

Duggys Housemate

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So the OP can ignore the advice you gave in your earlier post then ?

He can ignore people who support IE.

Listen I have a contract with Apple which says I have one year manufacturers warranty on my phone. I have two years warranty. Because that's the law in Europe for warranty.

In general contract law if you pay for something for a year you are owed that service - forcing people to display thev ticket is merely IE's little small print. Like the Apple warranty it isn't worth the tiny 9 point font it is written on.

Duggys Housemate

BenShermin wrote: »

Don't disagree with you at all Duggy. It's frankly disgraceful customer care to a loyal customer, and all it will do is play into the hands of the likes of the private bus operators.

Personally though (even if the transport company is in the wrong) I'd never travel without a valid ticket. Seeking refunds in my experience has to be easier than dealing with an Irish judge who most likely has never stepped foot on any public transport.

Irish judges are very much pro consumer. To a fault. My oh works in a shop - it is almost never worth challenging people who say their TV broke just inside the warranty even if you suspect shenanigans....

They might be more severe with complaints against State companies though.

Hilly Bill

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

He can ignore people who support IE.

Listen I have a contract with Apple which says I have one year manufacturers warranty on my phone. I have two years warranty. Because that's the law in Europe for warranty.

In general contract law if you pay for something for a year you are owed that service - forcing people to display thev ticket is merely IE's little small print. Like the Apple warranty it isn't worth the tiny 9 point font it is written on.

Ignore those who support IE but listen to the keyboard lawyers is that it?
Strange.

Your ticket is your proof of purchase , to just tell a ticket checker that you bought one but lost it isnt proof of purchase now is it.

AlekSmart

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Irish judges are very much pro consumer. To a fault. My oh works in a shop - it is almost never worth challenging people who say their TV broke just inside the warranty even if you suspect shenanigans....

They might be more severe with complaints against State companies though.

Only way to sort this divegence of opinions is to suck it and see.

The Law is a multitude of things,but almost never predictable....One of the very "pro-consumer" Judges you speak of,may just have an off-day that co-incides with the OP's appearance,if so,then it's Paddy Power time....;)

bk

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Irish judges are very much pro consumer. To a fault. My oh works in a shop - it is almost never worth challenging people who say their TV broke just inside the warranty even if you suspect shenanigans....

Actually under Irish law there is no limit on the time a product is expected to last. The law states that a product should last as long as reasonably expected by most people for such a product.

I know a case of one person who brought Sony to court after their TV broke after 5 years and they won the case as the judge decided that for such an expensive item, it was reasonable to expect it to last more then 5 years.

One year warranties is just a trick that shops and manufactures try to use to fob people off and rob them of their rights under the law. The shops/manufacturers state it is outside of warranty and most people jsut accept it, not knowing their rights.

Sorry to go OT, just thought it might be useful for some people to know this here.

Duggys Housemate

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Ignore those who support IE but listen to the keyboard lawyers is that it?
Strange.

Your ticket is your proof of purchase , to just tell a ticket checker that you bought one but lost it isnt proof of purchase now is it.

He produced the ticket that very day. Read the story.

Duggys Housemate

AlekSmart wrote: »

Only way to sort this divegence of opinions is to suck it and see.

The Law is a multitude of things,but almost never predictable....One of the very "pro-consumer" Judges you speak of,may just have an off-day that co-incides with the OP's appearance,if so,then it's Paddy Power time....;)

The judge has 2 choices.

1) let him off
2) fine a valid ticket holder who displayed his ticket in a timely manner, has an email record of sending it to IE, and has the legitimate annual ticket in court up to "1000" euro or 3 months in jail.

Which leaves him with one option under the law.

Victor

Grandeeod wrote: »

Let the little boys who want to toe the party line do so. My advice and based on aforementioned road traffic offense scenarios is go to court, explain the situation, show the ticket and watch it get dumped out on its ass. If it even goes that far seeing as though you have a recorded appeal with credible grounds.

I fear that a lot of the advice given here is from people that have never had the reason or balls to stand in a District Court and argue their case if they believe they have been wronged. I have, in relation to minor road traffic offenses (that are also deemed to be against state law) and got them flung out. Technically you did nothing wrong and technically you didn't abide by the T &Cs. In a District Court moving at lightening pace, technicalities are an inconvenience. Let me quote you one of my examples. Many years ago I got a ticket for not having a Road Tax disc. I went to the local council and showed them the Disc and explained that it had fallen out of its holder. They quoted the law, which basically states the ticket is for non-display and refused to overturn it. **** happens I explained. No move on their part. I went to court and explained in a calm fashion what had happened along with providing proof that the vehicle was correctly taxed at the time the ticket was issued. The Judge was furious with the council for wasting Court time. Flung out. Yes there are laws and they are there for a reason. Technically I broke a law, but flexibility and common sense must come into play before Court action is taken, IMO from a District Court Judges position, they only want to see it before them, when its cut and dried. That opinion is also shared by my many colleagues in the legal profession.

Irish Rail are chancers if they take this all the way.

Such a route also risks a criminal conviction, so it isn't something that you can recommend here.

Moderator

Duggys Housemate

Victor wrote: »

Such a route also risks a criminal conviction, so it isn't something that you can recommend here.

Moderator

Surely the "risk of conviction" is what is under discussion.

Dravokivich

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Surely the "risk of conviction" is what is under discussion.

Either way, it's tip toeing around legal advice.

partyatmygaff

A lot of this comes down to the old fine. How was it not paid?

noodler

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Employee?

The rail users website are probably in a good position to know the law.

The fact is he already both showed and then emailed the ticket - did you not read that?

What he needs now is to counter sue for costs in a court case which will certainly go his way.

What a fantastic way to throw your toys out of the pram when somebody puts forward a point you disagree with.

Everyone who disagrees with you must be a Irish Rail employee, clearly.

Grandeeod

Victor wrote: »

Such a route also risks a criminal conviction, so it isn't something that you can recommend here.

Moderator

I think that's a bit heavy handed. I quoted my experience because the OP is looking at the options.

I have no intention of paying as to me it's a matter of principle, but how will I get on in court? Anyone any experience of this kind of thing?

I'm sure he or she has enough intelligence to know it can go either way.

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So the OP can ignore the advice you gave in your earlier post then ?

Yup. The can if they want. Contributing to this thread does not preclude me from criticizing the advice given by the more "pro Irish Rail" contributors. It has become very noticeable that when Joe Public pops in for advice, they tend to be offered nothing but shut up and pay up. Guilty and not innocent until proven guilty.:rolleyes:

Hilly Bill

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

He produced the ticket that very day. Read the story.

Not at the time that he got fined.