Irish Rail extortion

partyatmygaff

I don't understand the mentality of the resident "Pay up and shut up" group of posters that seem to pounce on any thread about a fine. I don't see anything that endearing about Irish Rail for them to get such support. They're unreasonable and with every year their service plummets as their prices soar.

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

Yup. The can if they want. Contributing to this thread does not preclude me from criticizing the advice given by the more "pro Irish Rail" contributors. It has become very noticeable that when Joe Public pops in for advice, they tend to be offered nothing but shut up and pay up. Guilty and not innocent until proven guilty.:rolleyes:

What advice has been given on this thread by the so called pro Irish Rail contributors that needs criticizing?

Hilly Bill

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I don't understand the mentality of the resident "Pay up and shut up" group of posters that seem to pounce on any thread about a fine. I don't see anything that endearing about Irish Rail for them to get such support. They're unreasonable and with every year their service plummets as their prices soar.

Show me one in this thread.

Gatling

So basicly we should be promoting fare evasion for all ,

The op has now been fined twice for fare evasion he hasn't got a ticket when when he boarded a train and was caught by inspectors ,
Complaining about shoddy service doesn't cut it imagine how bad services would be if nobody actually bothered buying tickets for journey's

partyatmygaff

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Show me one in this thread.

No one in this thread, I was just commenting on Grandeeod's observation on what generally happens in this forum. I should have quoted his post but it make things cumbersome to read.

Gatling wrote: »

So basicly we should be promoting fare evasion for all

The op has now been fined twice for fare evasion he hasn't got a ticket when when he boarded a train and was caught by inspectors ,
Complaining about shoddy service doesn't cut it imagine how bad services would be if nobody actually bothered buying tickets for journey's

Did you miss the part where he said he already pays thousands to Irish Rail every year? He isn't a fare evader, even if Irish Rail want to label him as such.

Gatling

partyatmygaff wrote: »

No one in this thread, I was just commenting on Grandeeod's observation on what generally happens in this forum. I should have quoted his post but it make things cumbersome to read.


Did you miss the part where he said he already pays thousands to Irish Rail every year? He isn't a fare evader, even if Irish Rail want to label him as such.

Fined twice for fare evasion ,

partyatmygaff

Gatling wrote: »

Fined twice for fare evasion ,

How did you come to that conclusion?

Reading the OP, there was one time he didn't have a ticket 3-4 years ago. I've no idea what happened there so I can't comment.

As for the second case, how exactly did he evade paying his fare? In monetary terms, he already paid the correct amount of money for the services he used. Not having Irish Rail's little piece of paper with him doesn't change the fact that's he's already paid them and shouldn't give them the right to criminalize him.

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What advice has been given on this thread by the so called pro Irish Rail contributors that needs criticizing?

Nice try.;) But I won't be taking the bait. Usually results in reported posts, infractions, bans, etc. etc. etc.

But I think the thread is getting on fine without me naming names.

Gatling

partyatmygaff wrote: »

How did you come to that conclusion?

Reading the OP, there was one time he didn't have a ticket 3-4 years ago. I've no idea what happened there so I can't comment.

As for the second case, how exactly did he evade paying his fare? In monetary terms, he already paid the correct amount of money for the services he used. Not having Irish Rail's little piece of paper .

That little piece of paper a "valid Ticket" also a proof of purchase he can say how he's spent thousands on Irish rail tickets ,
I've spent tens of thousands on weekly shopping So if I walk out with a shop with Loaded trolley without paying would I be stealing ,
He lost his ticket and boarded a train therefore he wasn't in passion of a valid ticket

Hilly Bill

partyatmygaff wrote: »

How did you come to that conclusion?

Reading the OP, there was one time he didn't have a ticket 3-4 years ago. I've no idea what happened there so I can't comment.

As for the second case, how exactly did he evade paying his fare? In monetary terms, he already paid the correct amount of money for the services he used. Not having Irish Rail's little piece of paper with him doesn't change the fact that's he's already paid them and shouldn't give them the right to criminalize him.

I understand where you are coming from but at the time of the fine being issued the OP could not provide a valid ticket for that journey. If a Social Welfare pass holder has left the pass at home then they have to purchase a ticket for that journey. If an Annual ticket holder has left their card at home, they have to purchase a ticket for that journey they want to make , and i'd hazard a guess that the op knew this.
There have been a few reports on here about appeals being successful and fines being quashed after showing the RPU their relevant ticket/pass etc so it might be down to the attitude of an individual going in to see them. Going in with an "Im not paying, and i'll take my chance in court" attitude wont help anyone.
The RPU needs to be consistent when dealing with these fines , which i dont think is happening at the moment.

partyatmygaff

Gatling wrote: »

That little piece of paper a "valid Ticket" also a proof of purchase he can say how he's spent thousands on Irish rail tickets

He showed them evidence very soon after that he had already paid the correct fare but didn't have the ticket itself with him at the time. How can Irish Rail argue that he didn't pay for the services he used?

I've spent tens of thousands on weekly shopping So if I walk out with a shop with Loaded trolley without paying would I be stealing ,

Eh... yes? That's not a very good analogy.

He lost his ticket and boarded a train therefore he wasn't in passion of a valid ticket

He didn't have the ticket on him while he was on the train, that is true. What's also true is that he already paid for his journey and had the evidence to prove that fact.

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

Nice try.;) But I won't be taking the bait. Usually results in reported posts, infractions, bans, etc. etc. etc.

But I think the thread is getting on fine without me naming names.

I wasnt asking you to name names just the posts.

Hilly Bill

partyatmygaff wrote: »

He showed them evidence very soon after that he had already paid the correct fare but didn't have the ticket itself with him at the time. How can Irish Rail argue that he didn't pay for the services he used?

Eh... yes? That's not a very good analogy.

He didn't have the ticket on him while he was on the train, that is true. What's also true is that he already paid for his journey and had the evidence to prove that fact.

We can only take the OP's word on that. Only the OP and the RPU knows if its true and fact .

partyatmygaff

Hilly Bill wrote: »

We can only take the OP's word on that. Only the OP and the RPU knows if its true and fact .

Well if he's lying about having an annual ticket then his whole thread is a pointless farce...

Hilly Bill

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Well if he's lying about having an annual ticket then his whole thread is a pointless farce...

It wouldnt be the first Fine thread on here but we can only take the OP's word on it until we know otherwise.

bk

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It wouldnt be the first Fine thread on here but we can only take the OP's word on it until we know otherwise.

Well that is just silly now Hilly Bill, we of course have to assume the OP is telling the truth. You are now going too far in your attempts to defend Irish Rail at all costs.

If this was a private company, they would be bending over backwards to cancel the fine and apologise to a customer who spends €2000+ a year upfront with them.

Frankly only an entitled semi state company and employees who think the government will always pay their bills, would treat their most valuable customers like this.

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

Well that is just silly now Hilly Bill, we of course have to assume the OP is telling the truth. You are now going too far in your attempts to defend Irish Rail at all costs.

If this was a private company, they would be bending over backwards to cancel the fine and apologise to a customer who spends €2000+ a year upfront with them.

Frankly only an entitled semi state company and employees who think the government will always pay their bills, would treat their most valuable customers like this.

Strange comment BK.

Im not defending anyone BK, im just discussing the thread. You can either agree , disagree or ignore.

Firedance

this happened to me a couple of years ago, I just left home without my ticket that morning, they fined me, I had to go to Pearse St the next day with my ticket and they quashed the fine. I assumed that would be the case for any similar situation. In this day and age with the technology we posses annual ticket holders should have a smartphone app as a back up with their scanned ticket or something. The guys in the station should be able to enter a name into a device and see if that person does have a purchased annual ticket. Its not that difficult. Why did they let me away with it and not the OP?

bk

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Strange comment BK.

There is nothing strange about this comment, my point is very clear, a private company would never treat a customer who pays thousands per year up front in this manner.

The OP was rightfully issued a fine, but the fine should have been squashed when s/he proved that he had an annual ticket. I agree that some small admin fee should still be charged e.g. €10, but I think it is crazy to treat a well paying customer in this manner.

Con Logue

bk wrote: »

There is nothing strange about this comment, my point is very clear, a private company would never treat a customer who pays thousands per year up front in this manner.

The OP was rightfully issued a fine, but the fine should have been squashed when s/he proved that he had an annual ticket. I agree that some small admin fee should still be charged e.g. €10, but I think it is crazy to treat a well paying customer in this manner.

Well we have someone in the house who knows about Revenue Protection and the privatised railways in Britain. Over to you Richard..

bk

Con Logue wrote: »

Well we have someone in the house who knows about Revenue Protection and the privatised railways in Britain. Over to you Richard..

Lads seriously! :rolleyes:

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

There is nothing strange about this comment, my point is very clear, a private company would never treat a customer who pays thousands per year up front in this manner.

The OP was rightfully issued a fine, but the fine should have been squashed when s/he proved that he had an annual ticket. I agree that some small admin fee should still be charged e.g. €10, but I think it is crazy to treat a well paying customer in this manner.

That wasnt the bit i highlighted.

He would have been charged €10 for the replacement card and im impressed that he got it straight away. If he gets charged €10 admin fee for the fine then isnt that a fine in itself?

That might still happen. There might be more to this than what we are been told.

No Pants

Gatling wrote: »

I've spent tens of thousands on weekly shopping So if I walk out with a shop with Loaded trolley without paying would I be stealing

Not a good analogy. If you've bought and paid for a trolleyload of shopping, but as you wheel your trolley towards the exit, you're stopped by a security guard and asked for your receipt. Your receipt has fallen out of your pocket en route.

Can you offer a piece of paper and instantly prove that you've paid? No.
Have you stolen the contents of the trolley? Also no.
Can proof of payment still be produced if someone wants it? Yes.

I think a €10 admin fee is also unwarranted. The OP has paid for his service quite a bit in advance. This is to be encouraged. Therefore, there should be a set procedure to deal with him when he happens to forget his wee bit of paper or card on one of the 231 days a year that he may be using it.

It's the people who don't have tickets that you want to hassle.

partyatmygaff

No Pants wrote: »

It's the people who don't have tickets that you want to hassle.

Except if they look rough, then just pretend they're not there and walk along.

Richard Logue

Con Logue wrote: »

Well we have someone in the house who knows about Revenue Protection and the privatised railways in Britain. Over to you Richard..

Bk be under no illusion that a private run railway will somehow show more leniency to fare evaders. My local train operating company First Capital Connect employ a significant number of Revenue Protection Officers - none of whom would allow the examples quoted to pass. In London if you don't touch your Oyster card in you don't have a ticket. It doesn't matter how much credit is on the card or how much longer is left on the season ticket - if you don't touch in you don't have a ticket. Likewise with cardboard season tickets, if the season or standard ticket cannot be produced, you don't have a ticket.

If anything a private railway operator will be far sharper than IE on ticket evasion. In the UK and elsewhere there is far less tolerance of non production of tickets than Ireland. If you think a private operator will show more leeway then can I suggest you stop reading Ayn Rand and check out what private train companies are doing elsewhere. Believe me, Ireland is an easy going place in comparison!

Losty Dublin

Richard Logue wrote: »

Bk be under no illusion that a private run railway will somehow show more leniency to fare evaders. My local train operating company First Capital Connect employ a significant number of Revenue Protection Officers - none of whom would allow the examples quoted to pass. In London if you don't touch your Oyster card in you don't have a ticket. It doesn't matter how much credit is on the card or how much longer is left on the season ticket - if you don't touch in you don't have a ticket. Likewise with cardboard season tickets, if the season or standard ticket cannot be produced, you don't have a ticket.

If anything a private railway operator will be far sharper than IE on ticket evasion. In the UK and elsewhere there is far less tolerance of non production of tickets than Ireland. If you think a private operator will show more leeway then can I suggest you stop reading Ayn Rand and check out what private train companies are doing elsewhere. Believe me, Ireland is an easy going place in comparison!

Richard, all we need to do is look at Luas to see how inflexible and rigid they are with non ticket enforcement compared to Irish Rail.

Richard Logue

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Richard, all we need to do is look at Luas to see how inflexible and rigid they are with non ticket enforcement compared to Irish Rail.

My very point Losty. Veolia aren't running the LUAS as a social service they are running it as a business.

seb65

If you read the Irish rail act that gives the inspectors authority to issue fines you will see that fines can only be issued where the passenger fails to produce a valid ticket with the intention of not paying the proper fare.

Op had paid valid fare with annual ticket. There can be no evidence proffered OP intended not to pay. OP should not have had appeal denied upon production of annual ticket.

Simple as.

Duggys Housemate

bk wrote: »

Well that is just silly now Hilly Bill, we of course have to assume the OP is telling the truth. You are now going too far in your attempts to defend Irish Rail at all costs.

If this was a private company, they would be bending over backwards to cancel the fine and apologise to a customer who spends €2000+ a year upfront with them.

Frankly only an entitled semi state company and employees who think the government will always pay their bills, would treat their most valuable customers like this.

He spends 4k a year pre tax. That's what the OP is worth to IR. I can't say private railways would be better as they are also monopolies but any service company in a competitive environment would bend over backwards for a 4k a year customer.

bk

I would argue Richard that very simply, it isn't good business to "punish" your most loyal and well paying customers.

If British private rail companies would do the same in the same situation, then I would argue that they are just as idiotic as Irish Rail.

Any logical thinking, business minded person knows that this is just plain stupidity.

Losty Dublin

seb65 wrote: »

If you read the Irish rail act that gives the inspectors authority to issue fines you will see that fines can only be issued where the passenger fails to produce a valid ticket with the intention of not paying the proper fare.

Op had paid valid fare with annual ticket. There can be no evidence proffered OP intended not to pay. OP should not have had appeal denied upon production of annual ticket.

Simple as.

Except you need to have a ticket on you at the time of traveling, be it a single ticket or an annual ticket as it's your permission to travel in the first place. OP, having lost his annual ticket, decided to travel without either which is why he was caught and hit with €100. Plus they got him for the last fine, which is unpaid as well.

Head out without your Laser/Visa card, do your shopping at your local Super Valu and tell them you have a card anyway and is good for it like the last time he got caught; see how far you will get

partyatmygaff

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Head out without your Laser/Visa card, do your shopping at your local Super Valu and tell them you have a card anyway and is good for it like the last time he got caught; see how far you will get

That's a very poor analogy.

He already paid. He's not saying he'll pay them the next time he comes around.

Grandeeod

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Except you need to have a ticket on you at the time of traveling, be it a single ticket or an annual ticket as it's your permission to travel in the first place. OP, having lost his annual ticket, decided to travel without either which is why he was caught and hit with €100. Plus they got him for the last fine, which is unpaid as well.

Head out without your Laser/Visa card, do your shopping at your local Super Valu and tell them you have a card anyway and is good for it like the last time he got caught; see how far you will get

That laser/visa card argument is rediculous. The OP has paid Irish Rail for an annual ticket.

fines can only be issued where the passenger fails to produce a valid ticket with the intention of not paying the proper fare.

The OP did not travel with the intention of not paying the proper fare. Irish Rail are being completely unfair in upholding a €100 charge.

seb65

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Except you need to have a ticket on you at the time of traveling, be it a single ticket or an annual ticket as it's your permission to travel in the first place. OP, having lost his annual ticket, decided to travel without either which is why he was caught and hit with €100. Plus they got him for the last fine, which is unpaid as well.

You seem to have missed the point.

Grandeeod

bk wrote: »

I would argue Richard that very simply, it isn't good business to "punish" your most loyal and well paying customers.

If British private rail companies would do the same in the same situation, then I would argue that they are just as idiotic as Irish Rail.

Any logical thinking, business minded person knows that this is just plain stupidity.

It is plain stupidity. And for the record the analogy with British rail companies is irrelevant. Its like resorting to the last line of defense to validate your argument. Just because they do it this way, its okay for us to follow suit. Nothing is as simple as that. I'm all for punishing fare evaders, but the OPs story highlights the utter failure of Irish Rail to distinguish between blatant fare evaders and loyal customers making a mistake. Its the use of the word "intention" that invalidates Irish Rails position.

Losty Dublin

partyatmygaff wrote: »

That's a very poor analogy.

He already paid. He's not saying he'll pay them the next time he comes around.

He used the service of travel without his ticket and assumed that he was entitled to do this without having a ticket on him. Whether he pre paid this or that much up front for an annual pass is irrelevant; you need to have a valid ticket on you in order to travel and he didn't have one when stopped and issued with a penalty fare.

The fact that he traveled without a ticket before and was caught shows that he should be well aware of the consequences of ticketless travel.

Richard Logue

seb65 wrote: »

You seem to have missed the point.

Don't think so.

In any case, a ticket or a charged and tagged in Leap card is the only proof of entitlement to travel under these circumstances. That's the reality of the situation.

From a Revenue Inspector's point of view it's irrelevant that the ticket holder has paid for a ticket or not. The amount paid, even if it's an annual ticket, does not matter. The fact is that if a traveller cannot produce a valid ticket on demand (and a correctly tagged in Leap card counts as a valid ticket) then they are travelling without a ticket and are therefore liable to a penalty fare. How does the Revenue Protection Officer do their job otherwise? The traveller in question might have handed their Leap card to a friend or family member and allowed them to use the ticket instead?

Is it logical? Is it fair? Well, it could be argued as bk does that it isn't, however the right to travel is granted by the ticket itself. No ticket, no travel.

trellheim

If you read the Irish rail act that gives the inspectors authority to issue fines you will see that fines can only be issued where the passenger fails to produce a valid ticket with the intention of not paying the proper fare.

Not true.

I think act of 2005 is current.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0132.html
as far as I can see

Para 2 - no ticket , no standard fare, no name and address = offence
Para 3 - fare avoidance = offence

offence=fine up to €1000

Richard Logue

Richard Logue wrote: »

Don't think so.

In any case, a ticket or a charged and tagged in Leap card is the only proof of entitlement to travel under these circumstances. That's the reality of the situation.

From a Revenue Inspector's point of view it's irrelevant that the ticket holder has paid for a ticket or not. The amount paid, even if it's an annual ticket, does not matter. The fact is that if a traveller cannot produce a valid ticket on demand (and a correctly tagged in Leap card counts as a valid ticket) then they are travelling without a ticket and are therefore liable to a penalty fare. How does the Revenue Protection Officer do their job otherwise? The traveller in question might have handed their Leap card to a friend or family member and allowed them to use the ticket instead?

Is it logical? Is it fair? Well, it could be argued as bk does that it isn't, however the right to travel is granted by the ticket itself. No ticket, no travel.

Now let's look at this issue another way. The technology exists to use smart bank cards as virtual Oyster Bus cards in London. If a standard Irish bank card could be used to buy and hold a travel ticket on the card itself, and to tag in as a Leap card can, without the need for a separate Leap card, then that would be a sensible option to offer travellers in any future bus or rail arrangements in Ireland.

But the same regulations would and should apply to charged bank cards, if the bank card once charged with a ticket or season ticket could not be produced for whatever reason that should be the same as not being able to produce a paper ticket or charged and tagged in Leap card.

Duggys Housemate

Here's a better shopping analogy.

I contract a company to supply me with sausages for 4k a year. I can write off tax so it costs me half that.
The company supply every week but they demand proof of purchase - an id card they issue - or they won't hand it over ( because people were stealing the sausages so this is fair enough)
I lose the ID card one day but I convince the driver to give me the sausages.
He reports this and they send me a fine for sausage theft. (Why am I not on the system?)
I get a new ID to sort this out. I go to sausage factory. No joy. They say send an email to HQ with the ID. No joy.
I am still availing of the sausages every week but now they are suing me for €100 + the cost of the sausage delivery for people who buy once off; and up to 3 months in jail or an increase to €1000 unless I pay the fine.

Meanwhile my work deducts about €330 a year pre tax from my pay for my sausage supplying litigants.

If course in a competitive environment this wouldn't happen. With monopolies - public or private it can.

partyatmygaff

Losty Dublin wrote: »

He used the service of travel without his ticket and assumed that he was entitled to do this without having a ticket on him. Whether he pre paid this or that much up front for an annual pass is irrelevant; you need to have a valid ticket on you in order to travel and he didn't have one when stopped and issued with a penalty fare.

So what you're saying is he didn't have a ticket on him hence he was fined.

Strangely enough, I think we surmised that quite early on.

You're just stating what happened without actually getting to the crux of the matter which is "Is what happened reasonable?" and whether or not it is acceptable for a company to behave in such a manner towards paying customers.

Richard Logue wrote: »

Is it logical? Is it fair? Well, it could be argued as bk does that it isn't, however the right to travel is granted by the ticket itself. No ticket, no travel.

So it mightn't be logical or fair but that's just how they roll and we should put up with it? I don't think so.

Duggys Housemate

The statute book is mute on the subject of annual tickets. It merely talks about willfully avoiding paying fares. Up to courts to decide I suppose.

seb65

trellheim wrote: »

Not true.

I think act of 2005 is current.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0132.html
as far as I can see

Para 2 - no ticket , no standard fare, no name and address = offence
Para 3 - fare avoidance = offence

offence=fine up to €1000

Paragraph 2 only applies to paragraph 1 which requires a passenger to pay a fare upon request of the officer or employee when he cannot produce a valid ticket. If he refuses to buy a valid ticket at that point he can be fined.



You're right about para 3, however, see highlighted:

3) A passenger who—

(a) travels or attempts to travel on a railway of a railway undertaking without having previously paid his or her fare, and with intent to avoid such payment,

(b) having paid his or her fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid such payment, or

Gatling

Interesting price quoted from the op he stated he's paid €2136 to ir this year
The most expensive ir tax saver ticket costs1980e, for combined ir ,db,luas travel
Aveager cost is 1200 depending on your travel type
Beginning to think were not getting the full story at all

Duggys Housemate

Gatling wrote: »

Interesting price quoted from the op he stated he's paid €2136 to ir this year
The most expensive ir tax saver ticket costs1980e, for combined ir ,db,luas travel
Aveager cost is 1200 depending on your travel type
Beginning to think were not getting the full story at all

He said about that figure.

bazza1

No ticket...no travel simples!

If you discover you forgot your ticket...buy a ticket for that day only and be safe from a €100 standard fine...simples!

How would staff know that you had left your ticket at home? Evryone could say that! I'm Spartacus!

I forgot my annual pass...noticed only at the station...bought a ticket for the day....kicked myself for stupidity....moved on with my life!!!!!

bk

Gatling wrote: »

Interesting price quoted from the op he stated he's paid €2136 to ir this year
The most expensive ir tax saver ticket costs1980e, for combined ir ,db,luas travel
Aveager cost is 1200 depending on your travel type
Beginning to think were not getting the full story at all

You can also purchase a number of Irish Rail point to point tickets (e.g. Cork To Dublin) on the tax saver scheme. So the total amount can end being almost anything.

Richard Logue

I think we need to get away from the notion that because we are Ireland we're special and we shouldn't follow legal practices as used elsewhere. Robust revenue protection policies aren't "stupid" they are there to protect the public transport network from fraud.

Of course there are genuine people who leave their tickets at home, but there's plenty of chancers who will swear black and blue they have left their ticket at home but at the same time are sharing their tickets with others. It ain't pretty and sweet, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. If some people think that's "stupid" well, it's a harsh world out there. Sorry.

Engine No.9

BenShermin wrote: »

Don't disagree with you at all Duggy. It's frankly disgraceful customer care to a loyal customer, and all it will do is play into the hands of the likes of the private bus operators.

Personally though (even if the transport company is in the wrong) I'd never travel without a valid ticket. Seeking refunds in my experience has to be easier than dealing with an Irish judge who most likely has never stepped foot on any public transport.

It's not there's any competition he can bring his business to, now, is there.

Gatling

pajopearl wrote: »

It's not there's any competition he can bring his business to, now, is there.

Buy a car/bike solves that problem