N.I census correction,,catholics even closer

ardmacha

Britain didn't cause NI's economic hardship. They granted the majority of Ireland independence when they asked for it and now they're trying to make the most out of what they have. In a modern first world economy large regional differences in income wouldn't be accepted so repatriation is necessary.

The people in Tyrone also asked for independence, why are they less deserving of it than those elsewhere in Ireland?

So if I have it right, you are saying that Britain did not cause NI's economic hardship, but if all of Ireland had remained in the UK it would, somehow, be prosperous.

Iwasfrozen

ardmacha wrote: »

The people in Tyrone also asked for independence, why are they less deserving of it than those elsewhere in Ireland?

So if I have it right, you are saying that Britain did not cause NI's economic hardship, but if all of Ireland had remained in the UK it would, somehow, be prosperous.

They did but a compromise had to be made and the line had to be drawn somewhere. No solution would have been perfect and some nationalists were going to be left on the "wrong" side.

I said nothing of the sort. Ireland's economic position within the UK would be impossible to predict.

Mr Cumulonimbus

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because they aren't. They're just repatriating capital from the wealthy south of England to the less prosperous NI. To give all citizens of the UK a comparable standard of living. We do the same thing with Dublin and Mayo.

Ardmacha talked about the transfer of wealth as an instrument of colonisation. British colonisation had political consequences on this island. You've already said that British economic policy in NI (artificial raising of it's living standards) has a potential knock on political effect (the postponement of a UI). The transfer of capital between Dublin and Mayo does not, if linked to similar political consequences, i.e. it probably won't influence Mayo's political status within the RoI, so why use Dublin and Mayo as an example?

Iwasfrozen

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

Ardmacha talked about the transfer of wealth as an instrument of colonisation. British colonisation had political consequences on this island. You've already said that British economic policy in NI (artificial raising of it's living standards) has a potential knock on political effect (the postponement of a UI). The transfer of capital between Dublin and Mayo does not, if linked to similar political consequences, i.e. it probably won't influence Mayo's political status within the RoI, so why use Dublin and Mayo as an example?

I have no doubt the British are aware their financial repatriation promotes political stability but this doesn't mean their motivations are limited to the maintenance of the UK. All modern economies promote a standardised standard of living across the whole country. Ireland is no different and I used it as an example.

I don't think it is fair to say the UK is promoting colonisation. Large scale regional differences in wealth would not be tolerated. They're just doing what their citizens are demanding of them.

ardmacha

I don't claim that the modern British government is quite promoting colonisation in the manner of their predecessors. However, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not a real union of equals, it is Britain and an appendage. The British have no real interest or understanding in the other bit, they just do their own thing and then sort NI's needs with a few £. Like a marriage where the wife has a credit card with a good limit, but no real respect or equal status. Like such a marriage these golden shackles make it hard to leave, but not especially happy. In these turbulent economic times this deal is tolerable. In a decade or so, when the Republic is again moving ahead and the majority in NI are no longer unionist in any meaningful sense, this contradiction will become much more apparent.

gallag

ardmacha wrote: »

I don't claim that the modern British government is quite promoting colonisation in the manner of their predecessors. However, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not a real union of equals, it is Britain and an appendage. The British have no real interest or understanding in the other bit, they just do their own thing and then sort NI's needs with a few £. Like a marriage where the wife has a credit card with a good limit, but no real respect or equal status. Like such a marriage these golden shackles make it hard to leave, but not especially happy. In these turbulent economic times this deal is tolerable. In a decade or so, when the Republic is again moving ahead and the majority in NI are no longer unionist in any meaningful sense, this contradiction will become much more apparent.

And then at that point Dublin will finance the north but it will be different because they will really respect the north and we will all live happily ever after?

ardmacha

And then at that point Dublin will finance the north but it will be different because they will really respect the north and we will all live happily ever after?

Why should Dublin "finance" the North? We want a United Ireland, not one with a main bit and a supplicant appendage. The north, south, east and west should be the same, and can certainly live happily ever after if you and your ilk are not trying to keep 17th century ethic concepts alive.

gallag

ardmacha wrote: »

Why should Dublin "finance" the North? We want a United Ireland, not one with a main bit and a supplicant appendage. The north, south, east and west should be the same, and can certainly live happily ever after if you and your ilk are not trying to keep 17th century ethic concepts alive.

It really is as simple as dublin would be the main financial hub of the country, I would imagine that dublin already supports the rest of the country? Why would this change?

ardmacha

In the Republic, the likes of Cork is more or less about the average, there is some flow of resources from Dublin to the likes of Leitrim or Roscommon. In a United Ireland one would expect some subsidy to Fermanagh or West Tyrone, but the Belfast area would not need this.

gallag

ardmacha wrote: »

In the Republic, the likes of Cork is more or less about the average, there is some flow of resources from Dublin to the likes of Leitrim or Roscommon. In a United Ireland one would expect some subsidy to Fermanagh or West Tyrone, but the Belfast area would not need this.

Why would belfast not need it? Overnight it would have 50% unemployment, destabilised security and the highest ratio of disability living benefits, N.I would cripple the south!

Iwasfrozen

gallag wrote: »

Why would belfast not need it? Overnight it would have 50% unemployment, destabilised security and the highest ratio of disability living benefits, N.I would cripple the south!

Because apparently in a UI all of the Norths many economic problems will be solved.

ardmacha

Why would belfast not need it? Overnight it would have 50% unemployment, destabilised security and the highest ratio of disability living benefits, N.I would cripple the south!

That is my point, it is not thriving under British rule. The least they could do is to keep it in working order!

Because apparently in a UI all of the Norths many economic problems will be solved.

Indeed, they probably will only be solved in a UI, given the dysfunctional nature of the UK. Question is, how do we get from here to there?

Iwasfrozen

ardmacha wrote: »

Indeed, they probably will only be solved in a UI, given the dysfunctional nature of the UK. Question is, how do we get from here to there?

Don't know, don't care. NI is not my priority, Ireland is. If unifying Ireland means economic or political destabilisation for the South then that's just something I won't support.

ardmacha

Don't know, don't care. NI is not my priority, Ireland is. If unifying Ireland means economic or political destabilisation for the South then that's just something I won't support.

So its a case of I'm alright Jack, my part of Ireland is OK, screw the rest of you, looking after no 1. A common enough attitude in 21st century Ireland, perhaps you should make a tape!

Higher values are needed for the sake of all parts of the country.

Iwasfrozen

ardmacha wrote: »

So its a case of I'm alright Jack, my part of Ireland is OK, screw the rest of you, looking after no 1. A common enough attitude in 21st century Ireland, you should make a tape.

Pretty much. NI has nothing to offer us. We need neither their land, labour or capital. The only thing NI can offer us is a headache.That's why I don't support Unification. I prefer stabilisation.

ardmacha

Pretty much. NI has nothing to offer us. We need neither their land, labour or capital.

the same could be said for Tallaght, or Roscommon.

Iwasfrozen

ardmacha wrote: »

the same could be said for Tallaght, or Roscommon.

It could but we aren't talking about taking on Roscommon. Neither does Roscommon have the potential to cause political instability.

SoulandForm

The idea that a border poll which in any case has to be agreed upon by the British Viceroy in Ireland will re-establish the Republic suppressed in the early 1920s is laughable.

SoulandForm

gallag wrote: »

Why would belfast not need it? Overnight it would have 50% unemployment, destabilised security and the highest ratio of disability living benefits, N.I would cripple the south!

Remaining within the UK has crippled north east Ulster.

The "south" has no moral right to abandon not only an integral part of the Irish nation but the area where the dream of the Irish Republic were bred and born.

The Irish nation is not simply a head count of those entitled to vote but the long generations past who forged her spirit and where forged by it as well as the generations of Irish women and men yet to be born. You have no moral right based on selfish, what could easily be called grubby, motives to deny and fight against the assertion of control over this nation's destiny by herself.

sanbrafyffe

well said lad

SoulandForm wrote: »

Remaining within the UK has crippled north east Ulster.

The "south" has no moral right to abandon not only an integral part of the Irish nation but the area where the dream of the Irish Republic were bred and born.

The Irish nation is not simply a head count of those entitled to vote but the long generations past who forged her spirit and where forged by it as well as the generations of Irish women and men yet to be born. You have no moral right based on selfish, what could easily be called grubby, motives to deny and fight against the assertion of control over this nation's destiny by herself.

Iwasfrozen

SoulandForm wrote: »

Remaining within the UK has crippled north east Ulster.

The "south" has no moral right to abandon not only an integral part of the Irish nation but the area where the dream of the Irish Republic were bred and born.

You mean the Irish Republic has no moral duty to the burden that would be Northern Ireland.

SoulandForm wrote: »

The Irish nation is not simply a head count of those entitled to vote but the long generations past who forged her spirit and where forged by it as well as the generations of Irish women and men yet to be born. You have no moral right based on selfish, what could easily be called grubby, motives to deny and fight against the assertion of control over this nation's destiny by herself.

Words are wind and this is all empty rhetoric. If you truly cared about your country you wouldn't risk it's economic and political stability by taking on Northern Ireland.

sanbrafyffe wrote: »

well said lad

Soulandform is of the fairer sex.

SoulandForm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You mean the Irish Republic has no moral duty to the burden that would be Northern Ireland.


Words are wind and this is all empty rhetoric. If you truly cared about your country you wouldn't risk it's economic and political stability by taking on Northern Ireland.

My country is Ireland- all 32 counties of it- the two states murderously imposed on the Irish nation by English guns are not countries, they are states, and furthermore states which have no moral legitimacy to exist. People's loyalty is owed to the actual Irish Republic declared in 1916 and embraced democratically by the people in the 1918 election and to neither of the failed states.

Iwasfrozen

SoulandForm wrote: »

My country is Ireland- all 32 counties of it- the two states murderously imposed on the Irish nation by English guns are not countries, they are states, and furthermore states which have no moral legitimacy to exist. People's loyalty is owed to the actual Irish Republic declared in 1916 and embraced democratically by the people in the 1918 election and to neither of the failed states.

I have to disagree. My country is Ireland. 26 counties. Northern Ireland is a foreign country full of foreign people with foreign ideas and problems. We share some elements of culture as is to be expected of neighbouring nations but our divergent history has resulted in numerous idiosyncrasies distinct from the South.

Your illogical reverence of the the first Dáil is full of almost religious fanaticism and frankly that scares me. I don't want people who think like you in power.

SoulandForm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I have to disagree. My country is Ireland. 26 counties. Northern Ireland is a foreign country full of foreign people with foreign ideas and problems. We share some elements of culture as is to be expected of neighbouring nations but our divergent history has resulted in numerous idiosyncrasies distinct from the South.

Your illogical reverence of the the first Dáil is full of almost religious fanaticism and frankly that scares me. I don't want people who think like you in power.

Im sure a lot of people believe something extremely similar about Dublin Four and Greystones if not more strongly in Tallaght and Kerry. Yes Ulster people have traits that make them distinctive from the rest of the country- but three of Ulster's counties are in what you call the "Irish Republic".

Im sure if I looked up your posts on purely economic questions I would find a fair degree of "Im alright jack" individualism there too- and if that is indeed the case I could easily point to messes created here in Ireland and further afflied by "people who think like you" actually in power. I will definitely say that it was people thinking along similar lines to you who have thrown away the small degree of freedom that the Free State actually had to the EU and the IMF.

Anyway back the OP- Republicans rejected a British border poll on principle when the British viceroy to Ireland organized one in the occupied north east of Ulster before in the early 1970s and no matter what the sectarian headcount they will do so again if another such poll is called.

Iwasfrozen

SoulandForm wrote: »

Im sure a lot of people believe something extremely similar about Dublin Four and Greystones if not more strongly in Tallaght and Kerry. Yes Ulster people have traits that make them distinctive from the rest of the country- but three of Ulster's counties are in what you call the "Irish Republic".

Im sure if I looked up your posts on purely economic questions I would find a fair degree of "Im alright jack" individualism there too- and if that is indeed the case I could easily point to messes created here in Ireland and further afflied by "people who think like you" actually in power. I will definitely say that it was people thinking along similar lines to you who have thrown away the small degree of freedom that the Free State actually had to the EU and the IMF.

Anyway back the OP- Republicans rejected a British border poll on principle when the British viceroy to Ireland organized one in the occupied north east of Ulster before in the early 1970s and no matter what the sectarian headcount if they will do so again if another such poll is called.

Not true. No one considers Tallaght or Kerry to be separate nations in their own right. Nor would such a claim even be justified as it is with NI as neither Tallaght or Kerry have shared distinct experiences from the rest of the republic that has shaped their culture.

If you want simplistically blame one stakeholder for economic crisis blame the socialisation of private debt. If people like me were in charge the banks would have defaulted because I wouldn't waste public money and risk economic stability to prop them up. No more then I will waste public money and risk economic stability to prop up Northern Ireland. The primary duty of care of the Irish government is the Irish people. Others like the Banks and people of Northern Ireland come second.

Back on topic the only way to unify Ireland is for Republicans to swallow their pride and carry out what you facetiously call a "head count". Not that it will matter unification is not even on the table at the moment. I'm a young man and I don't think I'll see it in my lifetime.

ardmacha

Not true. No one considers Tallaght or Kerry to be separate nations in their own right. Nor would such a claim even be justified as it is with NI as neither Tallaght or Kerry have shared distinct experiences from the rest of the republic that has shaped their culture.

Nobody in their right mind thinks NI is a separate nation in its own right. It is a part of Ireland with a lot of immigrants, but the same could be said of Mulhuddart. Kerry has greater claim to distinctiveness.

Iwasfrozen

ardmacha wrote: »

Nobody in their right mind thinks NI is a separate nation in its own right. It is a part of Ireland with a lot of immigrants, but the same could be said of Mulhuddart. Kerry has greater claim to distinctiveness.

Well let's break that statement down. What would you consider the characteristics of a nation to be? And I will show you how those characteristics apply to Northern Ireland.

ardmacha

What would you consider the characteristics of a nation to be?

As enshrined in the Irish constitution and agreed in the Good Friday Agreement.
"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation"

Nobody has ever claimed NI to be a nation, except you.

Iwasfrozen

ardmacha wrote: »

As enshrined in the Irish constitution and agreed in the Good Friday Agreement.
"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation"

Nobody has ever claimed NI to be a nation, except you.

That's not answering my question.

What would you consider the characteristics of a nation to be? Not the Irish nation (As you claim it to be). Then I will show you how those characteristics apply to Northern Ireland.

junder

ardmacha wrote: »

As enshrined in the Irish constitution and agreed in the Good Friday Agreement.
"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation"

Nobody has ever claimed NI to be a nation, except you.

And most of the unionist community who would see Northern Ireland as a nation

junder

ardmacha wrote: »

Nobody in their right mind thinks NI is a separate nation in its own right. It is a part of Ireland with a lot of immigrants, but the same could be said of Mulhuddart. Kerry has greater claim to distinctiveness.

When does a person stop becoming a 'immigrant' how many generations have to pass?

ardmacha

When does a person stop becoming a 'immigrant' how many generations have to pass?

it is not a question of number of generations, it is simply a matter of a person identifying with a place, the people who live there and its traditions, rather than the place they came from. It could be 10 years, it could be 10 generations.

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

When does a person stop becoming a 'immigrant' how many generations have to pass?

Of course you are Irish and not an immigrant however if you continue in your support of a foreign flag flying officially as the flag of government on Irish soil you have to expect comments like his. Under Eire Nua an Ulster regional assembly would have much greater powers than the current talking shop in Stormount.

Iwasfrozen

Don't tell me you believe in Eire Nua? I have nothing against Athlone but we're not making it the capital.