Prolife Campaign on Protection of Life in Pregnancy Bill Superthread

Bannasidhe

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Is the choice of a 3 year old child deliberate, or just a random age chosen, because there was an interesting (serious, not Pro-choice propaganda) philosophy/sociology paper published on the ethics of post birth abortion, I'l try and find it later but it makes some good points about the arbitrary nature of our definitions of personhood

Post birth abortion?
What on Earth would be the point - it's born!

Talk about locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.

jill_valentine

Wasn't that a South Park episode?

Galvasean

Looks like YD's efforts were, at best, ineffectual:
http://www.krank.ie/category/society/protection-of-life-during-pregnancy-bill-passes-second-stage/

In fact I'd go so far as to say they did more harm than good to the pro-life cause overall. By acting like loons and dickheads on the street they probably scared off people who might otherwise have sympathised with their cause.

endacl

Good stuff.

Mint Sauce

Dont know if it has been posted, but the Dail this evening has passed the second stage of this bill.

Although I will ignore the part where The Journal has decided to call it The Abortion Bill in their title. This I feel only sends out confusion on what the bill is about and adds fuel to certain sections of the debate against it by calling it this.

THE LANDMARK LEGISLATION that will permit abortion in Ireland in limited circumstances has passed the second stage of the Dáil this evening and will now move to committee stage where amendments to it are expected.

The Protection of Life during Pregnancy Bill passed a Dáil vote this evening by 138 votes to 24 with cross-party support and cross-party opposition.

Thirteen Fianna Fáil TDs voted against the bill – they were the only party allowed a free vote.

Meanwhile, four Fine Gael TDs voted against it, which means the quartet face expulsion from the parliamentary party as a result.

Just one Sinn Féin TD voted against the bill, Peadar Tóibín, who had previously voiced the fact he did not support the bill. In total, six independents opposed the bill.

The legislation will now go before the Health Committee tomorrow morning where members will be able to table amendments, 89 of which were published today, before the bill returns to the Dáil at some stage next week.

The legislation is expected to be debated in the Seanad later this month.

http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-bill-dail-vote-passes-975386-Jul2013/?utm_source=facebook_short

Finally, our government has done something repectfully, and hopefully in line with the thoughts of alot of people, and also hopefully have gone another step further to prevent a unnecessary death in our hospitals, confusion and uncertainty amongst their consultants, and another desperate girl from having to travel overseas.

At this point I would like to point out, whilst I would not support abortion on demand, I wouldn't redicule or judge someone who was desperate enough to go down this route. But clarity is needed where the life of the mother is at risk, for what ever reason that might be, or if it is very possible where the child would not survive term, or outside the womb.

Finally finishing with a question to these groups who are so far against it, with their propaganda, or proposals for hospices for mothers who may not survive term, or for their unborn child who may not survive. What is your thoughts on the morning after pill, if life starts at conception, is that to a form of abortion?

Laneyh

Zulu wrote: »

not saying I'm more correct; I'm not saying I'm a better judge. I'm saying that my opinion is valid. I'm saying I'm entitled to use my vote to reflect that. I not trying to silence anyone, or say their opinion is lesser.

Hi,

Sorry if you've already answered this within the thread but what is your opinion of the Youth Defence campaign?
Are you fully on board with their approach or is it just unfortunate that you are both 'pro-life'?

Mardy Bum

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Is the choice of a 3 year old child deliberate, or just a random age chosen, because there was an interesting (serious, not Pro-choice propaganda) philosophy/sociology paper published on the ethics of post birth abortion, I'l try and find it later but it makes some good points about the arbitrary nature of our definitions of personhood

It's about the earliest time we can form memories. Memories are what form the conception of the self. Obviously infanticide is wrong though.

Acacia

Reading through the thread, I'm seriously baffled as to how anyone could claim to care about human rights, dignity, blah, blah, blah and then say they are against abortion in cases of rape, based on this supposed love and respect for human life?! The mind boggles... You can have compassion for a ball of cells, but not a woman who is the victim of an appalling crime.


I don't want to live on this planet anymore:P

Mardy Bum

Acacia wrote: »

Reading through the thread, I'm seriously baffled as to how anyone could claim to care about human rights, dignity, blah, blah, blah and then say they are against abortion in cases of rape, based on this supposed love and respect for human life?! The mind boggles... You can have compassion for a ball of cells, but not a woman who is the victim of an appalling crime.


I don't want to live on this planet anymore:P

The only reason I can reckon upon for people who do follow that line of thought is that they are very susceptible to self deception following a long period of indoctrination in childhood and adolescence. Sometimes it is easier to deceive ourselves than face the truth in life.

Acacia

Ah, it's seriously depressing to actually hear/see that kinda thinking. My own dad is one of them... I remember having an argument with him when I was younger about this issue, and I asked how he thought it was right to force a rape victim to continue with a resulting pregnancy, and he said, " ah, but I read in Alive! :rolleyes: about a woman who was raped in Africa, but she loves the child now!" Ah shure, that solves that problem then, doesn't it?!:rolleyes:

Sad to say, I've lost a bit of respect for him, since he's so militant on this issue- he would defo fall into the ''indoctrination since childhood'' camp you describe, Mardy!

Mardy Bum

Acacia wrote: »

Ah, it's seriously depressing to actually hear/see that kinda thinking. My own dad is one of them... I remember having an argument with him when I was younger about this issue, and I asked how he thought it was right to force a rape victim to continue with a resulting pregnancy, and he said, " ah, but I read in Alive! :rolleyes: about a woman who was raped in Africa, but she loves the child now!" Ah shure, that solves that problem then, doesn't it?!:rolleyes:

Sad to say, I've lost a bit of respect for him, since he's so militant on this issue- he would defo fall into the ''indoctrination since childhood'' camp you describe, Mardy!

I have heard the same argument. Firstly there is very little knowledge of the different stages of birth in many pro lifers (even the women). Very few are able to construct a debate without talking about "killing babies". They have very little knowledge of phenomenology or neuroscience. Those that do have a very good knowledge of these areas i.e the various doctors and psychiatrists, are all religious so that immediately overrides their rational decision making functions.

skimpydoo

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Dont know if it has been posted, but the Dail this evening has passed the second stage of this bill.

Although I will ignore the part where The Journal has decided to call it The Abortion Bill in their title. This I feel only sends out confusion on what the bill is about and adds fuel to certain sections of the debate against it by calling it this.



http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-bill-dail-vote-passes-975386-Jul2013/?utm_source=facebook_short

Finally, our government has done something repectfully, and hopefully in line with the thoughts of alot of people, and also hopefully have gone another step further to prevent a unnecessary death in our hospitals, confusion and uncertainty amongst their consultants, and another desperate girl from having to travel overseas.

At this point I would like to point out, whilst I would not support abortion on demand, I wouldn't redicule or judge someone who was desperate enough to go down this route. But clarity is needed where the life of the mother is at risk, for what ever reason that might be, or if it is very possible where the child would not survive term, or outside the womb.

Finally finishing with a question to these groups who are so far against it, with their propaganda, or proposals for hospices for mothers who may not survive term, or for their unborn child who may not survive. What is your thoughts on the morning after pill, if life starts at conception, is that to a form of abortion?

It looks like Lucinda is full of **** and was just posturing that she had principles. I guess she would have missed the cabinet and her european trips too much.

mikom

skimpydoo wrote: »

It looks like Lucinda is full of **** and was just posturing that she had principles. I guess she would have missed the cabinet and her european trips too much.

Exodus 20:3.......... You shall not have other gods before me....... except your party, your leader, your pension.

Good on you Lucinda. :cool:

endacl

mikom wrote: »

Exodus 20:3.......... You shall not have other gods before me....... except your party, your leader, your pension.

Good on you Lucinda. :cool:

In fairness, and I don't personally have much time for the bauld Lucinda myself, but would a politician not putting old testament ravings about a madey uppy god not be a good thing...?

Eeden

Note that every single TD who voted against is a man.

robman60

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I have heard the same argument. Firstly there is very little knowledge of the different stages of birth in many pro lifers (even the women). Very few are able to construct a debate without talking about "killing babies". They have very little knowledge of phenomenology or neuroscience. Those that do have a very good knowledge of these areas i.e the various doctors and psychiatrists, are all religious so that immediately overrides their rational decision making functions.

Ah, what? That's one hell of a generalisation. Psychiatrists who were opposed to the suicide inclusion expressed that this was because there is a lack of evidence to show that an abortion would cure a woman's suicidal intention.

Mardy Bum

robman60 wrote: »

Ah, what? That's one hell of a generalisation. Psychiatrists who were opposed to the suicide inclusion expressed that this was because there is a lack of evidence to show that an abortion would cure a woman's suicidal intention.

I am talking about those that are pro life altogether i.e. don't care if the woman is going to die e.g. Patricia Casey. It is not a generalisation.

B0jangles

robman60 wrote: »

Ah, what? That's one hell of a generalisation. Psychiatrists who were opposed to the suicide inclusion expressed that this was because there is a lack of evidence to show that an abortion would cure a woman's suicidal intention.

Yeah, that argument only worked after they reframed it to include women who were suicidal before they were pregnant, and for reasons unrelated to the pregnancy.

Funny that.

Bannasidhe

robman60 wrote: »

Ah, what? That's one hell of a generalisation. Psychiatrists who were opposed to the suicide inclusion expressed that this was because there is a lack of evidence to show that an abortion would cure a woman's suicidal intention.

Not even if the reason a woman is suicidal is because she is pregnant?

Not aimed at you but as a general observation the lack of basic human empathy and understanding of the effect a crises pregnancy has on a woman's mental health astounds me.

The sheer 'oh **** **** g*d what am I going to do????????' reaction can and does end with some women deciding that death would be the best option. If they were not pregnant, the issue wouldn't arise. They wouldn't experience that same overwhelming fear of the future . It's not just about being pregnant - it's what to do with the child after birth and feeling one simply cannot face that.

It's not like a child is just for Xmas.

endacl

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Not even if the reason a woman is suicidal is because she is pregnant?

Not aimed at you but as a general observation the lack of basic human empathy and understanding of the effect a crises pregnancy has on a woman's mental health astounds me.

The sheer 'oh **** **** g*d what am I going to do????????' reaction can and does end with some women deciding that death would be the best option. If they were not pregnant, the issue wouldn't arise. They wouldn't experience that same overwhelming fear of the future . It's not just about being pregnant - it's what to do with the child after birth and feeling one simply cannot face that.

It's not like a child is just for Xmas.

^^

This. X10

Where's the multiple thank button?

RDM_83 again

jill_valentine wrote: »

Wasn't that a South Park episode?

It was but here's the article

http://jme.bmj.com/content/39/5/e1.short

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Post birth abortion?
What on Earth would be the point - it's born!

I got the name very slightly wrong, its an interesting enough read and its published in the journal of medical ethics so not exactly Alive

Zulu

Laneyh wrote: »

Hi,

Sorry if you've already answered this within the thread but what is your opinion of the Youth Defence campaign?

Yeah, I've already answered that: I deplore it.

is it just unfortunate that you are both 'pro-life'?

This.

Rezident

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I think there needs to be a serious reining in of these pro-life protestors. I was in Limerick city this afternoon and there were people with a massive banner, blocking a substanial amount of the street. They had teenagers at either end and people(elderly) in the centre. There were others handing out leaflets on either side of that street and I was approached on O'Connell street, the opposite side of the road,by another man handing out more of their junk.

I make no secret of the fact that I am pro abortion. I believe that abortion should be available on request and I make no apologies for that. This pro-life hokum is catholic nonsense and the protestors don't care if abortions take place, just so long as they don't take place in holy catholic Ireland. They don't care about the pregnant woman or her unborn child, lets make no mistake about that. The pro-life argument is nothing more than a catholic crusade to keep religious hypocrisy alive and well here. There attitude is 'you got pregnant and now you're stuck with it'. As I said religious hypocrisy.

Sadly these misguided individuals have the right to hand out their ridiculous literature but what I saw in Limerick today took the p*ss.

Did you know that many people who are anti-abortion are not catholic or remotely religious? We just think that human life is still important even if it hasn't been born yet.

Many people like you seem to think that abortion is a human right and while human rights are clearly very important I think human life is more important. That is all. No secret catholic conspiracy concocted by dr. evil to take away your human rights - whatever they may be.

The problem here, as usual, is the extremists on both sides.

looking_around

Rezident wrote: »

Did you know that many people who are anti-abortion are not catholic or remotely religious? We just think that human life is still important even if it hasn't been born yet.

Many people like you seem to think that abortion is a human right and while human rights are clearly very important I think human life is more important.

But, the mothers life should be MORE important than that of the foetus.
If you're against it, don't have an abortion, but you are still forcing your BELIEFS on others.
And that is never right.

Nodin

endacl wrote: »

In fairness, and I don't personally have much time for the bauld Lucinda myself, but would a politician not putting old testament ravings about a madey uppy god not be a good thing...?

She's going to vote against it after the committee stage.

kylith

Rezident wrote: »

Did you know that many people who are anti-abortion are not catholic or remotely religious? We just think that human life is still important even if it hasn't been born yet.

And they might never be born, due to any number of natural happenings. Shouldn't the life and wishes of a breathing, walking, feeling woman who is capable of thought and making decisions take precedence over something that might one day be a born human, all things going well?

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

She's going to vote against it after the committee stage.

If one were cynical one would wonder if Lucinda needs a few more days to qualify for a pension or some such....

OldNotWIse

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I am talking about those that are pro life altogether i.e. don't care if the woman is going to die e.g. Patricia Casey. It is not a generalisation.

I try to steer away from abortion threads as they tend to be filled with childish extremists from both sidse, all squabbling for the last word however every time I see the "all pro-lifers are religios" line trotted out, I feel like I should correct it.

So can I, for what must be the 20th time simply say, I am pro-life. I am not religious. Please stop with the generalisations. I realise that it suits your agenda to tar everyone else with the same brush but it is simply not true.

Bannasidhe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I try to steer away from abortion threads as they tend to be filled with childish extremists from both sidse, all squabbling for the last word however every time I see the "all pro-lifers are religios" line trotted out, I feel like I should correct it.

So can I, for what must be the 20th time simply say, I am pro-life. I am not religious. Please stop with the generalisations. I realise that it suits your agenda to tar everyone else with the same brush but it is simply not true.

No. It is not true. No more than it is true that all those who are pro-choice support limitless availability of abortion with no time limits and are only using the issue to foist a 'liberal' agenda on society. Yet, those accusations are also made.

Nodin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If one were cynical one would wonder if Lucinda needs a few more days to qualify for a pension or some such....

...political window dressing for the CV, in that she will try and add amendments and remove sections from the bill, and - having failed - will then say "I tried to work within the party lines but you forced me to vote against it". Total bollocks of course, because its been spelt out that the 'suicide section' is not negotiable, but there ye are.