DUP MLA has 'no problem' burning Tricolour

laoch na mona

Fratton Fred wrote: »

my biggest issue is with those who use this as a stick to beat unionists with, but would quite happily have flag burning parties of their own.

no we wouldn't, we're not bigots

Crooked Jack

junder wrote: »

Every year at internment bonfires union flags get burnt. The two internment bonfires I see over looking the westlink are covered top bottem in union flags, don't see any Sinn Fein members calling for them to be taking down, moreover I am sure there are more then a few Sinn Fein members attending the lighting of the bonfires and clapping as the fire takes hold. Do I care, not really, more important things to be worrying about

Try again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6432399.stm

Fratton Fred

laoch na mona wrote: »

no we wouldn't, we're not bigots

Who is this "we"?

Sierra Oscar

It is incitement of hatred in my view, it is a shame that some elected representatives continue to think this sort of commentary is acceptable.

I am pie

junder wrote: »

Every year at internment bonfires union flags get burnt. The two internment bonfires I see over looking the westlink are covered top bottem in union flags, don't see any Sinn Fein members calling for them to be taking down, moreover I am sure there are more then a few Sinn Fein members attending the lighting of the bonfires and clapping as the fire takes hold. Do I care, not really, more important things to be worrying about

Whilst this should certainly be dealt with it is verging on whataboutery. If there are SF MLA's attending and clapping as a union flag goes up, they should be condemned also but I strongly suspect that they are at least more media savvy. None would be so ignorant as to voice these opinions on air.

Do you agree with Girvan's comments?

Do you believe he should face any censure for stating it is OK to burn our neighbours flag?

Sometimes as a politician, regardless of your point of view, you need to be aware of the message you send to the people who didn't vote for you, terrorists and the world in general as a representative of Northern Ireland as an MLA.

gallag

I hope we can evolve past this nonsense, I enjoy bonfire night with friends from a Catholic/Irish back round and the cheer when the flag burns makes me cringe, still lets not kid anybody by pretending like this problem is only one sided as crocked jack would have you believe.

I am pie

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It is incitement of hatred in my view, it is a shame that some elected representatives continue to think this sort of commentary is acceptable.

It should certainly be considered so, realistically though any attempt by the PSNI to remove flags from bonfires would be the excuse the (i can't use the word I'd like to here) need to kick off with a summer of rioting and wanton destruction.

Sometimes pragmatism trumps the morally correct course of action in NI. Always has....

I am pie

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Try again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6432399.stm

In fairness that just highlights the tensions between SF and dissidents. It is a long way short of any kind of statement on not burning the union jack in August,.

Although I don't believe it's as widespread as Irish flag burning over the 12th fortnight it certainly happens.

Crooked Jack

I am pie wrote: »

In fairness that just highlights the tensions between SF and dissidents. It is a long way short of any kind of statement on not burning the union jack in August,.

Although I don't believe it's as widespread as Irish flag burning over the 12th fortnight it certainly happens.

It highlights clearly that Sinn Fein are not involved in these events, actively oppose them and that any equivalent sectarianism on the nationalist side comes from a tiny minority of nutcases. Totally incomparable to the widespread excesses of unionist sectarianism on naked display every year during July, clearly supported by the main unionist parties.

Crooked Jack

gallag wrote: »

I hope we can evolve past this nonsense, I enjoy bonfire night with friends from a Catholic/Irish back round and the cheer when the flag burns makes me cringe, still lets not kid anybody by pretending like this problem is only one sided as crocked jack would have you believe.

But the fact is that it largely is. Im not saying sectarianism is one sided, but this type of activity comes almost exclusively from unionism.
Internment bonfires are held in a handful of places across the north and as far as i know, exclusively by the extreme fringes of republicanism and thugs looking any excuse to burn stuff.
On the flipside, the July 11 bonfires are widespread across the north, nakedly sectarian, attended by a cross section of unionism, supported by mainstream unionist politicians and accompanied by 2 months of trouble.
The fact is, on this issue, it is largely one sided.

Id also be interested to know when your catholic friends attend these things are people aware of who they are or do you warn them to keep their heads down. A friend of mine with an Irish name went to one with his housemate and was instructed to not tell anyone his name, not to let on where he was from and generally not to speak to anyone outside of his housemates group of friends.
Someone recognised him from where he works, whispering and stares began and my friend and the housemate were advised to leave post haste.

gallag

Crooked Jack wrote: »

But the fact is that it largely is. Im not saying sectarianism is one sided, but this type of this come almost exclusively from unionism.
Internment bonfires are held in a handful of places across the north and as far as i know, exclusively by the extreme fringes of republicanism and thugs looking any excuse to burn stuff.
On the flipside, the July 11 bonfires are widespread across the north, nakedly sectarian, attended by a cross section of unionism, supported by mainstream unionist politicians and accompanied by 2 months of trouble.
The fact is, on this issue, it is largely one sided.

Id also be interested to know when your catholic friends attend these things are people aware of who they are or do you warn them to keep their heads down. A friend of mine with an Irish name went to one with his housemate and was instructed to not tell anyone his name, not to let on where he was from and generally not to speak to anyone outside of his housemates group of friends.
Someone recognised him from where he works, whispering and stares began and my friend and the housemate were advised to leave post haste.

Of course we don't announce there is a Catholic present, hell it took 2 years to convince his girlfriend to let him leave the house party but its a start :-( I would imagine I would not be advised to announce my political aspirations an internment bonfire? Another friend grew up in our community and although his parents were devoted catholics the whole family was accepted and in many ways cherished, he helped build the fire but I am sure there are bad and good examples on both sides, I really would like to see the end of flag burning though!

junder

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Try again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6432399.stm

Yer, so you pick one bonfire in an area known as a dissident hotspot, your point is?

Crooked Jack

gallag wrote: »

Of course we don't announce there is a Catholic present, hell it took 2 years to convince his girlfriend to let him leave the house party but its a start :-( I would imagine I would not be advised to announce my political aspirations an internment bonfire? Another friend grew up in our community and although his parents were devoted catholics the whole family was accepted and in many ways cherished, he helped build the fire but I am sure there are bad and good examples on both sides, I really would like to see the end of flag burning though!

And therein lies the difference, if these things are indeed "cultural events" as the DUP would have us believe then there is no equivalent within nationalism.
You could announce your religion or political aspirations all day long at a fleadh or feis for example, and nobody would give a damn. I've had protestant and English girlfriends at Sinn Fein events, republican commemorations and rallies and never made any secret of who they were and it was never an issue.
You couldnt, as you said, do that on the 11th or 12th.
These internment bonfires are, as pointed out, held by a fringe element and not indicative of mainstream republicanism so a comparison with them isnt a fair one.
Again, Id stress that Im not saying sectarianism is a one way street, but events such as this at the very least give the impression that it is more accepted within unionism or a more prominent part of the unionist psyche.

Crooked Jack

junder wrote: »

Yer, so you pick one bonfire in an area known as a dissident hotspot, your point is?

The point is that the story clearly demonstrates that Sinn Fein are opposed to these events and willing to stand up to those holding them to the point where they are physically attacked, so any whataboutery trying to equate these sparse events held by tiny minorities with the widespread sectarianism endorsed by major unionist parties in July is grade A bullsh!t

laoch na mona

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Who is this "we"?

those who criticise unionists for ****e like this

gallag

Crooked Jack wrote: »

And therein lies the difference, if these things are indeed "cultural events" as the DUP would have us believe then there is no equivalent within nationalism.
You could announce your religion or political aspirations all day long at a fleadh or feis for example, and nobody would give a damn. I've had protestant and English girlfriends at Sinn Fein events, republican commemorations and rallies and never made any secret of who they were and it was never an issue.
You couldnt, as you said, do that on the 11th or 12th.
These internment bonfires are, as pointed out, held by a fringe element and not indicative of mainstream republicanism so a comparison with them isnt a fair one.
Again, Id stress that Im not saying sectarianism is a one way street, but events such as this at the very least give the impression that it is more accepted within unionism or a more prominent part of the unionist psyche.

There is absolutely no way a protestant is safe at the fleadh, you are trying to paint a picture of bigotry, sectarianism and mistrust being one sided which after being raised in n.i I can assure you it is not.

laoch na mona

gallag wrote: »

There is absolutely no way a protestant is safe at the fleadh, you are trying to paint a picture of bigotry, sectarianism and mistrust being one sided which after being raised in n.i I can assure you it is not.

A protestant could enter the fleadh if they wanted to religion =/= culture
something the orange boys don't get

gallag

laoch na mona wrote: »

A protestant could enter the fleadh if they wanted to religion =/= culture
something the orange boys don't get

Might nip up to the ardoyne fleadh wearing a top with a small union flag on it, good idea?

Crooked Jack

gallag wrote: »

There is absolutely no way a protestant is safe at the fleadh, you are trying to paint a picture of bigotry, sectarianism and mistrust being one sided which after being raised in n.i I can assure you it is not.

Tell that to the group of lads who came down from uni with me and a load of cross ones to the fleadh in letterkenny and loved it that much they came back a few years later for cavan. or my coleraine friend who joined me for the west belfast feile.
as i have specifically pointed out in all my posts, im not trying to paint it as anything. it is what it is.

Crooked Jack

gallag wrote: »

Might nip up to the ardoyne fleadh wearing a top with a small union flag on it, good idea?

My cousin had a big iron maiden one with a union jack on last year. nary a fu(k was given

I am pie

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Tell that to the group of lads who came down from uni with me and a load of cross ones to the fleadh in letterkenny and loved it that much they came back a few years later for cavan. or my coleraine friend who joined me for the west belfast feile.
as i have specifically pointed out in all my posts, im not trying to paint it as anything. it is what it is.

Sectarianism is a 2 way street on a societal level, no doubting that, and any attempt to paint it otherwise is not grounded in reality.

I do have to agree (through gritted teeth I don't mind telling you) that SF in public are not guilty of the same sheer idiotic comments that the DUP are. My own take on this is that the DUP are the more complacent party having been in the majority for so long and the fact that they have what they want effectively, a separate NI state within the Union, with this comes triumphalism and complacency in my experience.

The DUP are also influenced thanks to the odious mr Paisley and son(where SF are not) by a theological ideology which informs them they are morally superior to catholicism. Free presbyterianism has been a very malign influence in the DUP, on the whole that particular taliban-esque strain of protestantism is not the mainstream and is not representative of protestants across the board.

Anyway..I digress...

gallag

Crooked Jack wrote: »

My cousin had a big iron maiden one with a union jack on last year. nary a fu(k was given

In the ardoyne?

junder

Crooked Jack wrote: »

It highlights clearly that Sinn Fein are not involved in these events, actively oppose them and that any equivalent sectarianism on the nationalist side comes from a tiny minority of nutcases. Totally incomparable to the widespread excesses of unionist sectarianism on naked display every year during July, clearly supported by the main unionist parties.

So in essence what your are trying to say is that most if not all unionists are bigots while only a few nationalist / republicans are bigoted, Infact they are Proberly not bigoted at all, just misunderstood

junder

I am pie wrote: »

Sectarianism is a 2 way street on a societal level, no doubting that, and any attempt to paint it otherwise is not grounded in reality.

I do have to agree (through gritted teeth I don't mind telling you) that SF in public are not guilty of the same sheer idiotic comments that the DUP are. My own take on this is that the DUP are the more complacent party having been in the majority for so long and the fact that they have what they want effectively, a separate NI state within the Union, with this comes triumphalism and complacency in my experience.

The DUP are also influenced thanks to the odious mr Paisley and son(where SF are not) by a theological ideology which informs them they are morally superior to catholicism. Free presbyterianism has been a very malign influence in the DUP, on the whole that particular taliban-esque strain of protestantism is not the mainstream and is not representative of protestants across the board.

Anyway..I digress...

I think you will find that the DUP realises that the unionist community is not very happy with it, and that these comments are a pathetic attempt at regaining some hardline unionist cred

Crooked Jack

junder wrote: »

So in essence what your are trying to say is that most if not all unionists are bigots while only a few nationalist / republicans are bigoted, Infact they are Proberly not bigoted at all, just misunderstood

Nope. i am not trying to say anything. i have written exactly what i meant to say. i suggest you read it and take it at face value rather than tryin to attribute ridiculous comments of your own creation to it

I am pie

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Nope. i am not trying to say anything. i have written exactly what i meant to say. i suggest you read it and take it at face value rather than tryin to attribute ridiculous comments of your own creation to it

OK, put simply:

Sectarian is a problem in both Catholic and Protestant communities.

Agree or Disagree?

Crooked Jack

gallag wrote: »

In the ardoyne?

Nope. never been to the ardoyne one. i fail to see what relevance that has however. your comments about wearing a union jack shirt are just a (hypothetical) attempt to deliberately antagonise (hypothetical) people. if ardoyne is like any of the numerous fleadhanna ive been to across ireland im sure if you just went as you are without trying to wind people up you'd be more than welcome.

Crooked Jack

I am pie wrote: »

OK, put simply:

Sectarian is a problem in both Catholic and Protestant communities.

Agree or Disagree?

Obviously. if you had read my posts you wouldnt need to ask that.

I am pie

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Obviously. if you had read my posts you wouldnt need to ask that.

Actually, because I have read your posts I felt I did need to ask you that. You are coming across as someone who only recognises the problems which exist on one side of the fence.

Sectarianism manifests itself in many ways, not just cavemen burning flags.

Karl Stein

Those 11th night bonfires are an awful waste of good wood.

guinnessdrinker

It's ok everyone, Mr. Girvan has come out and clarified his inital comments. He now want to see a "reduction" in flag burnings!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23089437

Karl Stein

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

It's ok everyone, Mr. Girvan has come out and clarified his inital comments. He now want to see a "reduction" in flag burnings!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23089437

I delightful sense of schadenfreude engulfs me.

gallag

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Those 11th night bonfires are an awful waste of good wood.

You are right there, burning thousands of pallets people would gladly pay them 2-3 quid for, I would sell out pretty fast lol.

Crooked Jack

I am pie wrote: »

Actually, because I have read your posts I felt I did need to ask you that. You are coming across as someone who only recognises the problems which exist on one side of the fence.

Sectarianism manifests itself in many ways, not just cavemen burning flags.

Is it comments like this that make you think that

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Im not saying sectarianism is one sided
.

or do you just view any criticism of loyalism/unionism, no matter how justified, as being one sided?
I cant help it if there is not a republican equivalent. Have I said anything that is actually factually inaccurate?
Have we gotten to the stage now where any comment on the north must be prefaced with that odious mantra of the idiotic "well, one side is as bad as the other?"

Karl Stein

gallag wrote: »

You are right there, burning thousands of pallets people would gladly pay them 2-3 quid for, I would sell out pretty fast lol.

The bonfires of my youth were mostly old tyres. I can't even remember the sectarian element - I'm not even sure if I was at 'Protestant' bonfires or 'Catholic' ones. :pac: I love bonfires me.

In the summer we sometimes head down to my BIL's and Sister's caravan, pitch a tent, get a load of firewood, head into town for a few pints and then back to light a fire and have a few cans under the stars. Bliss.

ardmacha

Sectarianism is a 2 way street on a societal level, no doubting that, and any attempt to paint it otherwise is not grounded in reality.

A two way street, but 5 lanes on one side and one lane on the other.
Any attempt to claim there is some equivalence between both sides in this respect is not grounded in reality.

This isn't accidental. One side is trying to maintain a sectarian political settlement, the other is trying to remove this.

gallag

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

The bonfires of my youth were mostly old tyres. I can't even remember the sectarian element - I'm not even sure if I was at 'Protestant' bonfires or 'Catholic' ones. :pac: I love bonfires me.

In the summer we sometimes head down to my BIL's and Sister's caravan, pitch a tent, get a load of firewood, head into town for a few pints and then back to light a fire and have a few cans under the stars. Bliss.

I have a man cave out my back and at least once a week we get the fire pit lit and get wasted, cold beer and a warm fire is as good as it gets!

Karl Stein

gallag wrote: »

cold beer and a warm fire is as good as it gets!

Nothing better imo.

junder

ardmacha wrote: »

A two way street, but 5 lanes on one side and one lane on the other.
Any attempt to claim there is some equivalence between both sides in this respect is not grounded in reality.

This isn't accidental. One side is trying to maintain a sectarian political settlement, the other is trying to remove this.

Your certinly traveling down one of those lanes

gurramok

They like burning Southern reg cars as well, guess its part of their "culture"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23098930
http://www.u.tv/News/German-delegates-car-burned-out/dba71b40-c99c-4f17-974d-3ade9f4716c8