Would you support the reintroduction of the death penalty?

namloc1980

epluribusunum wrote: »

One last chance. Here we go:

I think Hitler would have deserved the death penalty.

It is concerning if you disagree with this. For your mental health.

Just like Anyone else who takes a life. What is the difference in intentionally taking 1 life versus millions? Outside of the quantitative aspect, the principle does not change.

So is there a certain number that must be reached? If so, at what number did Hitler deserve the death penalty?? 1,2,3, millionth Jew? Which number? Because they all had families, and a life.

Or did he not deserve it at all? I hope you do not believe this.

namloc1980 wrote: »

Why are you going on about Hitler?? Killing humans is wrong full stop. I know you are trying to turn this into a "being anti death penalty means you are pro-Nazis" point which is utterly bizarre and completely weakens and invalidates your arguments to this point.

First nazis and now ignoring posts now. Quite impressively you've become your own parody. Congratulations!

end of the road

epluribusunum wrote: »

I will re-post it until someone addresses it. Here we go:

I think Hitler would have deserved the death penalty.

It is concerning if you disagree with this. For your mental health.

Just like Anyone else who takes a life. What is the difference in intentionally taking 1 life versus millions? Outside of the quantitative aspect, the principle does not change.

So is there a certain number that must be reached? If so, at what number did Hitler deserve the death penalty?? 1,2,3, millionth Jew? Which number? Because they all had families, and a life.

Or did he not deserve it at all? I hope you do not believe this.

he didn't deserve it at all

Irish Musician

No......

end of the road

Yellow121 wrote: »

Why not just kill them to make sure?

because life in prison is perfectly fine

epluribusunum

end of the road wrote: »

he didn't deserve it at all

And that is why I am going to completely remove myself from this thread.

You cannot be sane to believe that what Hitler did was not grounds for the death penalty. You are the definition of disgusting to believe that which based on your earlier posts I think you seriously do. I guess the Jews, Slavs, etc should have contributed to his would be prison expenses as well?

green123

.

osarusan

epluribusunum wrote: »

And that is why I am going to completely remove myself from this thread.

You cannot be sane to believe that what Hitler did was not grounds for the death penalty. You are the definition of disgusting to believe that which based on your earlier posts I think you seriously do. I guess the Jews, Slavs, etc should have contributed to his would be prison expenses as well?

How is it so hard for you to understand why people oppose the death penalty. Your twisted logic tells you that because a person believes Hitler should not be executed, that person believes that Hitler's crimes didn't warrant execution - therefore to some level condoning them. Let me try and explain why this is stupid and wrong.

I don't oppose the death penalty because I want to excuse or condone the behaviour of scumbags, or because I care more about the perpetrator than the victim, or other such nonsense. They deserve to stay in prison for a long time, even until they die if that is necessary for the safety of others.

It's not because I care about the criminal, it's because I care about society. I would hate to think that Irish people, as a society, believed that giving the state the power to end the life of a criminal, was the right thing to do, considering the consequences of any miscarriage of justice, but more importantly, the innate hypocrisy of the concept of capital punishment, and its inhumane treatment of humans.

Yellow121

end of the road wrote: »

because life in prison is perfectly fine

Why? Life in prison is not that bad these days. Conditions are very good, too good for the type of person we are talking about.

dr.bollocko

mod:

Lads post civilly or not at all.


Fair warning.

old hippy

green123 wrote: »

i cant understand why we need repeat offenders as part of society, maybe someone can explain it to me ?

surely the world would be a better place without these people ?

3 strikes and you are out - simple as that

No, it's not as simple as a numbers lottery. It's about ensuring your society does not become a vengeful killing machine in order to keep some shrill voters happy. It's about responsibility for all the people your society nurtures. "Good" and "bad".

old hippy

epluribusunum wrote: »

Logic is hard to manipulate, yes?

There is little, if any, logic in bringing Hitler into an argument about whether or not to re-introduce the death penalty in Ireland.

old hippy

epluribusunum wrote: »

What? The definition of sentient is the ability to perceive or feel things. A sentient being has empathy towards others and understands what suffering is.

Secondly, she used that word- not me- so get your facts straight. But I like your attempt at sarcasm...quite an original delivery.

Lastly, why are you so protective over such a monster anyway?

Who are you calling a monster?

Yellow121

old hippy wrote: »

No, it's not as simple as a numbers lottery. It's about ensuring your society does not become a vengeful killing machine in order to keep some shrill voters happy. It's about responsibility for all the people your society nurtures. "Good" and "bad".

I think we've gone too soft. Back in the day humans killed eachother and no one batted an eyelid. People fought to the death. Life wasn't seen as so precious.
Now, obviously it's good we've moved on but we're going too far in the opposite direction. We don't owe rapists and cold blooded murderers anything.
I used to think like you, kill these people and we're just as bad but now I think different. These people deserve the ultimate punishment, they don't deserve what we hold so precious. They don't deserve lfe.

Love2u

epluribusunum wrote: »

And that is why I am going to completely remove myself from this thread.

You cannot be sane to believe that what Hitler did was not grounds for the death penalty. You are the definition of disgusting to believe that which based on your earlier posts I think you seriously do. I guess the Jews, Slavs, etc should have contributed to his would be prison expenses as well?

Stick with the topic! The thread has nothing to do with Hitler. Open a new thread for him if you wish. Stay on course with the matter at hand. Death penalty!!

old hippy

epluribusunum wrote: »

You did not address any issue of debate but instead went ahead and criticized a description because you had no point to make. I said that adults are also a clump of cells just like a fetus and you could not rebut. I said lethal injection is also a medical procedure just like abortion and you could not rebut. These are both derived from science so you cannot manipulate it out of convenience.

Which by the way, I think every sane person would call the Boston bombers monsters. I do not know how you can possibly sympathize with someone who planned, walked along a row of people, dropped bombs, walked away, and watched people scream for their life in distraught, then went ahead and shot a cop from point blank range later that week for no reason, and then when the survivor went to court he looked the family members of the victims in the eyes, smirked and then pleaded "not guilty." If that is not a monster I do not know what is. If he has no remorse for his actions, and no regard for the life of others then why should the tax payers who witnessed this first hand have to pay for him to live the rest of his life? How can you sympathize with someone like that? Disgusting, truly disgusting. He killed this kid who is 8 and took his sister's leg who was 7 and yet according to you he does not deserve to die, that is absurd. It is not about revenge, it is about justice for the victims. And, yes the victims do matter considering how they are completely innocent and had this awful act put on their burden. I cannot believe you had the audacity to say that we should not sympathize with victims of terrible acts. Then who should we sympathize for? Ridiculous.
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1089212/thumbs/o-MARTIN-RICHARD-BOSTON-MARATHON-BOMBINGS-VICTIM-570.jpg?6


Please address the above because you are one sick individual if you can sympathize with those actions. I do not think you live in the real world if this is the case.

You are not using logic but instead an ignorant progressive way of thinking, supported by your profound support of the hippy movement, that rejects common sense. Just because you try to differ in philosophical views of the "mainstream" at the extent of sounding ridiculous does not make you more intellectual, instead most would argue it makes you seem out of touch with reality. Think for yourself and not what a group feeds to you, yeah all forms of abortion is okay but monsters should get to live. Give me a break.

Emotive bobbins. Where have I said I sympathise with the Boston bombers? I don't. But I don't know their full story and what kind of madness drove them to their actions. Was it religious, political or (as latest reports suggest) possibly linked with far right sympathies? Whatever the case - I condemn their actions. But I won't be howling with the mob sentiment that they are monsters. They are desperate, misguided people and deserve our scrutiny at the very least. If that's sick, then I'm willing and illin'.

My profound support of the hippy movement? My what of the what? Can you elaborate on that statement which has left me proufoundly confused?

old hippy

Yellow121 wrote: »

I think we've gone too soft. Back in the day humans killed eachother and no one batted an eyelid. People fought to the death. Life wasn't seen as so precious.
Now, obviously it's good we've moved on but we're going too far in the opposite direction. We don't owe rapists and cold blooded murderers anything.
I used to think like you, kill these people and we're just as bad but now I think different. These people deserve the ultimate punishment, they don't deserve what we hold so precious. They don't deserve lfe.

I promise you, you never used to think like me.

mickydoomsux

old hippy wrote: »

It's about responsibility for all the people your society nurtures. "Good" and "bad".

It isn't societies job to tolerate or babysit these people who aren't willing to abide by that self same societies rules.

Yellow121

old hippy wrote: »

I promise you, you never used to think like me.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Love2u

Yellow121 wrote: »

Why? Life in prison is not that bad these days. Conditions are very good, too good for the type of person we are talking about.

It seems prison is "bad these days" and who are we to say conditions are very good unless we have ourselves spend time there to say any different. What "type" of person are we talking about? No one has the right to take human life away, and no one deserves death penalty. What about finding out the reasons that led up to a person committing such crimes, how about trying to evaluate and dish out proper structures and help for these people. Death doesn't work, it creates a whole new set of problems.

gitane007

Hard Labour...............make clothes build playgrounds finish unfinished developments or fix roads for the country for nothing. Fix leaking water or sewer pipes or clean up the canals or sort recycling. ****in loads they could be doin that could save us all money rather than costing us money.

old hippy

mickydoomsux wrote: »

It isn't societies job to tolerate or babysit these people who aren't willing to abide by that self same societies rules.

Yes, it is. Society is not exclusive. It is our duty to ensure all in it are treated fairly.

Yellow121

Love2u wrote: »

It seems prison is "bad these days" and who are we to say conditions are very good unless we have ourselves spend time there to say any different. What "type" of person are we talking about? No one has the right to take human life away, and no one deserves death penalty. What about finding out the reasons that led up to a person committing such crimes, how about trying to evaluate and dish out proper structures and help for these people. Death doesn't work, it creates a whole new set of problems.

We're talking about rapists and cold blooded murderers. We can try and help these people if problems are spotted, we can help them as much as we can until they cross that line.
Once they're over it there's no turning back. There is no reason good enough to commit such acts. None. Death is a punishment that's fitting in these cases.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

gitane007 wrote: »

Hard Labour...............make clothes build playgrounds finish unfinished developments or fix roads for the country for nothing. Fix leaking water or sewer pipes or clean up the canals or sort recycling. ****in loads they could be doin that could save us all money rather than costing us money.

In other words, take paid labour away from people?

Amirani

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

In other words, take paid labour away from people?

Exactly. What about the people who specialise in providing those services? They won't be able to employ people at similar wages and thus won't be able to compete. Why is it fair for them to go out of business?

Yellow121

old hippy wrote: »

Yes, it is. Society is not exclusive. It is our duty to ensure all in it are treated fairly.

If we let them live we are not treating them fairly. The fair thing for rapists and murderers is the ending of their existence.

wexie

old hippy wrote: »

Yes, it is. Society is not exclusive. It is our duty to ensure all in it are treated fairly.

....Even though some completely abuse the rights they have been given? Deprive other, innocents, of their rights thereby ensuring the non fair treatment of some?

On second thought :

I'm not going to argue with you on this because while at some level I respect your dogged perseverance and unshakeable belief in the good of people I think we've proved in the past we'll never agree on something like this. I fully believe some people are beyond any reasonable chance of redemption.

old hippy

Yellow121 wrote: »

If we let them live we are not treating them fairly. The fair thing for rapists and murderers is the ending of their existence.

No, the fair thing is to delve deep into their psyche/backgrounds and all those who find themselves acting in similar fashion. We cannot prevent or control those actions until we have more information and documentation. Rehabilitation may not work in some cases but the death penalty is not a deterrent.

gitane007

Originally Posted by Princess Consuela Bananahammock View Post
In other words, take paid labour away from people?


You could just have them supervise and pass on the skills needed to do the jobs, .............they could still get paid and have less work to do and eventually rise to higher skill sets with all that lovely extra spare time, they could also concentrate more time towards their familys which in turn lends to a better society all round cos kids have parents at home and are engaged with them more and not just sent out to "play with the traffic". People could take more time off , go on more holidays , experience more culture differences, take those experiences back to Ireland, All the while earning the same money but doin way less work or rather sacrificing way less of their time for work.

Love2u

Yellow121 wrote: »

We're talking about rapists and cold blooded murderers. We can try and help these people if problems are spotted, we can help them as much as we can until they cross that line.
Once they're over it there's no turning back. There is no reason good enough to commit such acts. None. Death is a punishment that's fitting in these cases.

There is no reason good enough for us to introduce death penalty, it doesn't work. "You shall not kill".

Yellow121

old hippy wrote: »

No, the fair thing is to delve deep into their psyche/backgrounds and all those who find themselves acting in similar fashion. We cannot prevent or control those actions until we have more information and documentation. Rehabilitation may not work in some cases but the death penalty is not a deterrent.

How is that fair? They viciously rape or kill someone and in return we give them some counselling.
That's the opposite of fair.

Yellow121

Love2u wrote: »

There is no reason good enough for us to introduce death penalty, it doesn't work. "You shall not kill".

There are good enough reasons. Rape and cold blooded murder. "An eye for an eye."

old hippy

Yellow121 wrote: »

How is that fair? They viciously rape or kill someone and in return we give them some counselling.
That's the opposite of fair.

Not exactly what I meant. We need to find out more about the human condition and the factors that lead to horrific offences against other humans. Far too easy to say "kill the scumbags".

Yellow121

old hippy wrote: »

Not exactly what I meant. We need to find out more about the human condition and the factors that lead to horrific offences against other humans. Far too easy to say "kill the scumbags".

Yes we need to find out, so we delve into their brain. We find what screws are loose and so forth. Then it's injection time.

Amirani

gitane007 wrote: »

Originally Posted by Princess Consuela Bananahammock View Post
In other words, take paid labour away from people?


You could just have them supervise and pass on the skills needed to do the jobs, .............they could still get paid and have less work to do and eventually rise to higher skill sets with all that lovely extra spare time, they could also concentrate more time towards their familys which in turn lends to a better society all round cos kids have parents at home and are engaged with them more and not just sent out to "play with the traffic". People could take more time off , go on more holidays , experience more culture differences, take those experiences back to Ireland, All the while earning the same money but doin way less work or rather sacrificing way less of their time for work.

That's some crazy reasoning there.

gitane007

NiallSparky wrote: »

That's some crazy reasoning there.

I dont see whats so crazy about having prisoners doin donkey work and the rest of us having more time on our hands to live better lives with just as much money. Obviously i know its not a practical solution but its one i would vote for.

catallus

old hippy wrote: »

Not exactly what I meant. We need to find out more about the human condition and the factors that lead to horrific offences against other humans. Far too easy to say "kill the scumbags".

No it's far too easy to spout nonsense about finding out about the "human condition" by questioning murderous kidnapping rapists. Anyone over puberty knows why rapists rape; because it feels good for rapists to have sex with someone who doesn't want it. That's why they do it; it's not about not having a sexual outlet, it's about sexual power and control. Most murders are crimes of circumstance or passion. This stuff isn't rocket science. And to say these assholes as some sort of puzzle piece in the human race's quest to know itself better is a horrendous thing to come out with, (and is really what drags us all down to their level). Really, only the most shut-in ivory tower academic would believe that stuff.

What is difficult is for us all as a society to shout stop, enough.

What is difficult is saying our society is worth too much for it to be torn apart by predators and barbaric nuisances who go on and on and on and on, devouring their victims again and again in an endless cycle of injustice, supported by pre-paid barristers and lenient judges.

What is difficult is taking responsibility for one another, an anathema in the modern society which adores the cult of the individual; I love my society, what I want to know is when did it become ok for people who do not love it to tear it apart.

You want to know more about the human condition? Read a book or watch a movie, get out and talk to real human beings, but you're not going to find any answers in the destructive brains of those who kill and rape.

Amirani

gitane007 wrote: »

I dont see whats so crazy about having prisoners doin donkey work and the rest of us having more time on our hands to live better lives with just as much money. Obviously i know its not a practical solution but its one i would vote for.

Nothing is necessarily wrong with it, it just wouldn't work like that.

Love2u

Yellow121 wrote: »

There are good enough reasons. Rape and cold blooded murder. "An eye for an eye."

That's why this world is a mess, people like you believing in "An eye for an eye". Your talking rubbish.

Yellow121

Love2u wrote: »

That's why this world is a mess, people like you believing in "An eye for an eye". Your talking rubbish.

You said "you shall not kill", I was responding in kind. Do you not think murderers and rapists make the World a mess by the way?

catallus

Love2u wrote: »

That's why this world is a mess, people like you believing in "An eye for an eye". Your talking rubbish.

No the world is a mess because of people like you believing in "turn the other cheek".

It's a mess because the principles of forgiveness and fraternity have been hijacked by cowards and simpletons who extend those virtues upon those that have no concept of such things.

Your kneejerk reaction that those who seek punishment are "talking rubbish" has to be because you can't fathom having the responsibility of actually facing up to those that would do you me and the rest of society harm.

But it's easy to have no standards. It's easy to turn virtues such as forgiveness into vice, we see it every day, aggressors being let off the hook and the victim left alone in their own living nightmare.

Love2u

catallus wrote: »

No the world is a mess because of people like you believing in "turn the other cheek".

It's a mess because the principles of forgiveness and fraternity have been hijacked by cowards and simpletons who extend those virtues upon those that have no concept of such things.

Your kneejerk reaction that those who seek punishment are "talking rubbish" has to be because you can't fathom having the responsibility of actually facing up to those that would do you me and the rest of society harm.

But it's easy to have no standards. It's easy to turn virtues such as forgiveness into vice, we see it every day, aggressors being let off the hook and the victim left alone in their own living nightmare.

This is about the death penalty. It has been proven that its not effective. This is not a proper solution for "punishment". Does that now make you the "simpleton"! To tell someone they are turning the other cheek just because they don't believe in the death penalty is ridiculous.

Love2u

Yellow121 wrote: »

You said "you shall not kill", I was responding in kind. Do you not think murderers and rapists make the World a mess by the way?

But do two wrongs make a right. Death penalty is not the solution.

catallus

Love2u wrote: »

This is about the death penalty. It has been proven that its not effective. This is not a proper solution for "punishment". Does that now make you the "simpleton"! To tell someone they are turning the other cheek just because they don't believe in the death penalty is ridiculous.

It is 100% effective. It prevents a criminal from re-offending.

Two wrongs usually do make a right. Think about it.

Love2u

catallus wrote: »

It is 100% effective. It prevents a criminal from re-offending.

Two wrongs usually do make a right. Think about it.[/

Show me the proof and facts that its 100% effective! It may be effective in your mind but the reality is that it is not the answer or solution to crime.

Love2u

catallus wrote: »

It is 100% effective. It prevents a criminal from re-offending.

Two wrongs usually do make a right. Think about it.

Show me the proof and facts that its 100% effective! It may be effective in your mind but the reality is that it is not the answer or solution to crime.

catallus

Proof and facts??? Dead people don't re-offend! Is that good enough??

Love2u

catallus wrote: »

Proof and facts??? Dead people don't re-offend! Is that good enough??

That's your thinking. Show me proof and facts that the death penalty works and deters criminals from offending or reoffending. If you had someone you knew who went down the wrong path and commited a crime would you like to see them go through the death penalty???? No you would like to see them get the help they needed and have them alive.

Yellow121

Love2u wrote: »

That's your thinking. Show me proof and facts that the death penalty works and deters criminals from offending or reoffending. If you had someone you knew who went down the wrong path and commited a crime would you like to see them go through the death penalty???? No you would like to see them get the help they needed and have them alive.

He's saying they can't reoffend if they're dead. Understand?

Love2u

Yellow121 wrote: »

He's saying they can't reoffend if they're dead. Understand?

And I'll say show me the proof and facts that death penalty deters people from offending in the first instance. Smart ass.

catallus

Love2u wrote: »

That's your thinking. Show me proof and facts that the death penalty works and deters criminals from offending or reoffending. If you had someone you knew who went down the wrong path and commited a crime would you like to see them go through the death penalty???? No you would like to see them get the help they needed and have them alive.

Deterrence isn't the issue. A killer isn't going to be deterred from his actions, circumstance and/or passion overcome reason; a rapist won't weigh up potential consequences in their blind depraved hunger for wailing flesh.

If someone I knew committed a heinous rape or murder? Yes, (and I have thought about this) then I'd want them punished, by death if needs be.

This is what gets me, when people bring up this "Oh, if it was a family member or friend, you wouldn't support the death penalty." This thinking is framed by the logic of the coward. There is too much emphasis on rights, not enough on responsibility.

We're not talking about summary execution of people for breaking windows, or even for destroying people's lives by assaulting them; we're talking about the worst crimes here.