Would you support the reintroduction of the death penalty?

Mr Williams

Holsten wrote: »

It is FAR from perfect. It's cruel and unusual punishment.

No, sorry, people don't have any right to know. The chances of a Larry Murphy type doing anything again are incredibly low.

Has Larry Murphy reoffended? Nope.

Sex abuse is also "cruel and unusual" yet you dont seem to have a problem with that.

Its not like sex offenders on register are all been shot dead the chances of anything happening to them is low. But even if it those who cares ? These beasts deserve everything they get.

Mr Williams

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You are developing a flair for the exaggeration and passing off of vague opinion as concrete fact. You've been caught out enough times by now to know this.

We had this discssion: the people were generally beleived to be iresponsible in the face of availability of said information. They know nothign about said offenders and, worse, don't want to know anything. Blind ignorance is the root of the problem reguarding ideas of publication of the sex offenders reigster and implementation of the death penalty, and nothing will change until people actually do something to learn about the problems rather than just reading tabloids and getting angry.

People don;t actually have a right to know who is living beside them.

No you have been caught out you could'nt back up your claim that pediphiles can change.

OldNotWIse

Mr Williams wrote: »

Sex abuse is also "cruel and unusual" yet you dont seem to have a problem with that.

Its not like sex offenders on register are all been shot dead the chances of anything happening to them is low. But even if it those who cares ? These beasts deserve everything they get.

I think when you start using sensationalist language like this, all common sense flies out the window. Incitement, mob mentality, hysteria - all come into play when the word paedophile is mentioned. I dont condone protecting abusers, but a system that lets people know the whereabouts of an offender is going to create chaotic witch hunts.

I believe it unfair to assume that a poster who does not agree with the death penalty "does not have a problem with" child abuse. It's a remarkable, exagerrated, hysterical leap. I dont think any right-thinking person is ok with child abuse. That doesnt mean we want to get out the pitchforks and allow vigilante justice to prevail.

Mr Williams

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I think when you start using sensationalist language like this, all common sense flies out the window. Incitement, mob mentality, hysteria - all come into play when the word paedophile is mentioned. I dont condone protecting abusers, but a system that lets people know the whereabouts of an offender is going to create chaotic witch hunts.

I believe it unfair to assume that a poster who does not agree with the death penalty "does not have a problem with" child abuse. It's a remarkable, exagerrated, hysterical leap. I dont think any right-thinking person is ok with child abuse. That doesnt mean we want to get out the pitchforks and allow vigilante justice to prevail.

It wound'nt cause a witch hunt there are already many known pediphiles in Ireland yet when was the last time you heard of a vigilante attacking them ?

By letting parents know whos in the their area they would be able to take precautions to protect their children.

OldNotWIse

Mr Williams wrote: »

It wound'nt cause a witch hunt there are already many known pediphiles in Ireland yet when was the last time you heard of a vigilante attacking them ?

There have been many cases of such events in countries where a register is available to the public. In fact, I think last year there was an unfortunate incident of a case of mistaken identity. I cannot remember where but will have a look.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mr Williams wrote: »

No you have been caught out you could'nt back up your claim that pediphiles can change.

That kind of proves my point: we both know I never made such a statement - I´ve pointed it out three times at least. We also both know that the only reason you´re saying I did is to avoid having to concede ignorance on a claim that you did make.

Mr Williams

Holsten wrote: »

This is a myth.

I mean I don't know the actual statistics on pedophiles but I read in the Irish Times recently that sex offenders have the lowest re-offending rate of all criminals.

See for yourself : http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/sex-offenders-least-likely-to-commit-further-crimes-1.1623468

You would expect them to say that The Irish Times are bleeding heart liberals. They can not be trusted to tell the truth we have seen in abortion debate that the paper is nothing but a propaganda rag for advancing the liberal agenda.

Billy86

Mr Williams wrote: »

You would expect them to say that The Irish Times are bleeding heart liberals. They can not be trusted to tell the truth we have seen in abortion debate that the paper is nothing but a propaganda rag for advancing the liberal agenda.

Time and again I have linked to where they got those statistics: The CSO's official report, published within the last week - http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/crimejustice/2008/prisonrecidivism2008.pdf

You can go down to page two on that report and acknowledge you are wrong (facts tend to have a funny 'liberal bias' don't they?). Or you can do what people who use terms like "bleeding heart liberals" tend to do in the face of proven factual evidence, and shift the goalposts, try to create straw men, or just run away from the debate.

Mr Williams

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That kind of proves my point: we both know I never made such a statement - I´ve pointed it out three times at least. We also both know that the only reason you´re saying I did is to avoid having to concede ignorance on a claim that you did make.

You still cant back up your claim that pedophilia is an unchangeable.

Your the one who is trying to dodge the question by attacking me.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We're back again, are we?

OK, so there is no such thing as a Human Rights Brigade, (what is a Human Right in any case if it can be rescinded?), you're not looking for "justice" to be served, you're looking for your "vengeful blood-lust" to be served, there's no evidence to suggest that pedophilia is an unchangeable or untreatable condition, no - it;s not worth 5 or 10 innocent dead people for one guilty dead one* (not to mention, how do you deal with a judge or jury who send an ultimately innocent mand to the grave? Rhetorical question as it's never going to get a sensible responce) and I'm just as unlikley to wind up living beside a convicted mass-murderer if he's jail or if he's dead.

I believe that covers all the arguments in favour of the death penalty in the last few days.

*yeah, I know that one wasn't made recently, but it wsa made and no one ever backed it up.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mr Williams wrote: »

You still cant back up your claim that pedophilia is an unchangeable.

Your the one who is trying to dodge the question by attacking me.

I´ve dealt with that particlar fallacy, too - a few pages back.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I said that "there's no evidence to suggest that pedophilia is an unchangeable or untreatable condition".

Mr Williams

Billy86 wrote: »

Time and again I have linked to where they got those statistics: The CSO's official report, published within the last week - http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/crimejustice/2008/prisonrecidivism2008.pdf

You can go down to page two on that report and acknowledge you are wrong (facts tend to have a funny 'liberal bias' don't they?). Or you can do what people who use terms like "bleeding heart liberals" tend to do in the face of proven factual evidence, and shift the goalposts, try to create straw men, or just run away from the debate.

Even your statistics say there is a 15% chance they will reoffend.

Thats means by letting them out other children WILL be abused by these beasts. Anybody who sexual abuses a young child should get a minimum of life in prison. But the human rights brigade want to defend these animals.

Days 298

No I wouldn't be if support longer jail terms without "suspending" two thirds and the use of the social exclusion from human contact in prison for those who destroyed another persons life.

No one who murders another human should see the light of day again unless the really transform.

Mr Williams

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I´ve dealt with that particlar fallacy, too - a few pages back.

So what do you think should be done with convicted Paedophiles ?

J_E

Mr Williams wrote: »

Its not like sex offenders on register are all been shot dead the chances of anything happening to them is low. But even if it those who cares ? These beasts deserve everything they get.

The Sun are looking for columnists if you're interested

Billy86

Mr Williams wrote: »

Even your statistics say there is a 15% chance they will reoffend.

Thats means by letting them out other children WILL be abused by these beasts. Anybody who sexual abuses a young child should get a minimum of life in prison. But the human rights brigade want to defend these animals.

Yes, which means 85% will not.

Every other type of crime has a higher recidivism rate - so by your logic, every single crime known to man should amount to life in prison at the minimum, as they'll all do it again.

osarusan

Mr Williams wrote: »

Even your statistics say there is a 15% chance they will reoffend.

This was in response to you saying they all reoffend. Forgotten that?

But rather than admit you were exaggerating, you spout nonsense about those who disagree with you 'defending' or 'not having a problem with' child abuse.

Your posts have been an embarrassment.

Billy86

osarusan wrote: »

This was in response to you saying they all reoffend. Forgotten that?

But rather than admit you were exaggerating, you spout nonsense about those who disagree with you 'defending' or 'not having a problem with' child abuse.

Your posts have been an embarrassment.

It's like I said... one of three choices: shift goalposts, create strawmen, or run away.

He went for a mixture of option 1 and 2.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mr Williams wrote: »

So what do you think should be done with convicted Paedophiles ?

Well, for a start accurate and unbiased determination as to whether an individual is dangerous or not. Saying that soemone is automatically dangerous based one one crime is beyond igorant. So is claming that one particular crime requires the death penalty.

If you seriously belive that ALL pedophiles are automatically dangerous you have GOT to back up that statement or retract it, or you´re just going to look foolish. NO sensible administration is EVER going to base a death-penalty policy without said research, let´s be honest - and nor should they.

Some are - don´t get me wrong - and these are the ones that should be locked away in a mental assylum indefinitely at the very least - but because they´re dangerous, NOT because they´re pedophiles.

Arrow.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Well, for a start accurate and unbiased determination as to whether an individual is dangerous or not. Saying that soemone is automatically dangerous based one one crime is beyond igorant. So is claming that one particular crime requires the death penalty.

If you seriously belive that ALL pedophiles are automatically dangerous you have GOT to back up that statement or retract it, or you´re just going to look foolish.

Some are - don´t get me wrong - and these are the ones that should be locked away in a mental assylum indefinitely at the very least - but because they´re dangerous, NOT because they´re pedophiles.

Surely, Pedophilia by its very definition would mean that one who is a pedophile - is sexually attracted to prepubescent children - would automatically make them a danger?

OldNotWIse

Cydoniac wrote: »

The Sun are looking for columnists if you're interested

lol, I think he must have already done some work for them judging by the amount of times "beast" and "animals" have been used in every post :P

end of the road

djflawless wrote: »

Was too young to vote at the time but wasn't it voted in 2000-02 to abolish and never re introduce the death penalty in Ireland???

yess

OldNotWIse

It will never come back anyway. Even now there are countries coming under pressure to abolish it. There is jurisprudence to suggest that extraditing someone to a country where they will face the death penalty is a violation of human rights under the ECHR. Protocol 6 specifically outlaws it.

end of the road

Mr Williams wrote: »

The american law may not be perfect but its better than letting sex offenders run wild in the community.

People have a right to know if somebody like larry murphy is living beside them.

well with to many vidulanti vermin roming ferrel around the country i'm afraid such laws can't happen and people don't have a right to know, i and a couple of others could be trusted with such information as we'd just keep an eye on things but not behave like ferrel vermin

Billy86

OldNotWIse wrote: »

It will never come back anyway. Even now there are countries coming under pressure to abolish it. There is jurisprudence to suggest that extraditing someone to a country where they will face the death penalty is a violation of human rights under the ECHR. Protocol 6 specifically outlaws it.

Oh please, we all know the ECHR is a piece of bleeding heart liberal nonsense that doesn't exist and is only there to make the sheep feel better and safer about their lot! :rolleyes:

end of the road

Mr Williams wrote: »

Sex abuse is also "cruel and unusual" yet you dont seem to have a problem with that.

Its not like sex offenders on register are all been shot dead the chances of anything happening to them is low. But even if it those who cares ? These beasts deserve everything they get.

yeah, when all else fails, accuse someone of condoning the crime, shur they don't agree with you, so they must condone it right?

end of the road

Mr Williams wrote: »

No you have been caught out you could'nt back up your claim that pediphiles can change.

billy 86 has, multiple times, the fact is theirs no evidence that the other 85 % re-offend

OldNotWIse

Billy86 wrote: »

Oh please, we all know the ECHR is a piece of bleeding heart liberal nonsense that doesn't exist and is only there to make the sheep feel better and safer about their lot! :rolleyes:

Oh. That's weird. I thought ECtHR judgements were binding on member parties. :rolleyes:

end of the road

Mr Williams wrote: »

You would expect them to say that The Irish Times are bleeding heart liberals. They can not be trusted to tell the truth we have seen in abortion debate that the paper is nothing but a propaganda rag for advancing the liberal agenda.

and when accusing someone of condoning a crime doesn't work and they supply evidence, accuse the evidence of being "bleeding harted liberals" you haven't been able to tell the truth and haven't supplied anything to counteract what billy has posted, fact is 15 % of paediophiles re-offend, theirs nothing for the other 85 %

OldNotWIse

no i wouldnt support this on the grounds that our legal system is corrupt to fcuk..... there is zero transparency

and whats more if you have $$$$$ chances are you buy yourself out of a verdict....

judges bankers polticians burn them all.

happy christmas

In America maybe...

I guess thats why you put dollar symbols rather than euro? :P

Billy86

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Oh. That's weird. I thought ECtHR judgements were binding on member parties. :rolleyes:

No, they're not real! I won't hear of it!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Arrow. wrote: »

Surely, Pedophilia by its very definition would mean that one who is a pedophile - is sexually attracted to prepubescent children - would automatically make them a danger?

Not every pedophile acts on his or her desires. It´s the same with any fetish or philia.

In any case, putting someone to death because of somethign they are and not because of something they´ve done is defintiely never going to be a good idea.

looking_around

Arrow. wrote: »

Surely, Pedophilia by its very definition would mean that one who is a pedophile - is sexually attracted to prepubescent children - would automatically make them a danger?

Thats like saying, someone who plays GTA is going to go around robbing cars and killing people.

Thoughts aren't a crime.

Holsten

It's also akin to suggesting that everyday normal men are a danger as they find women attractive and might rape them.

Also that stat of 85% is in relation to people convicted of a sexual crime, not people with a diagnosis of pedophilia.

Sex offender does not equal pedophile.

Mr Williams

osarusan wrote: »

This was in response to you saying they all reoffend. Forgotten that?

But rather than admit you were exaggerating, you spout nonsense about those who disagree with you 'defending' or 'not having a problem with' child abuse.

Your posts have been an embarrassment.

The statistics are BS most of them never even get caught. They are also very manipulative and clever people so its likely if they do get caught they make sure not to get caught a second time.

Mr Williams

Billy86 wrote: »

Yes, which means 85% will not.

Every other type of crime has a higher recidivism rate - so by your logic, every single crime known to man should amount to life in prison at the minimum, as they'll all do it again.

Child abuse is a more serious crime than "normal" crime. You can reform a bank robber but a pedophile will always be a pedophile.

end of the road

Mr Williams wrote: »

The statistics are BS most of them never even get caught. They are also very manipulative and clever people so its likely if they do get caught they make sure not to get caught a second time.

BS or not, nobody has been able to post anything that counteracts them

Mr Williams

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Well, for a start accurate and unbiased determination as to whether an individual is dangerous or not. Saying that soemone is automatically dangerous based one one crime is beyond igorant. So is claming that one particular crime requires the death penalty.

If you seriously belive that ALL pedophiles are automatically dangerous you have GOT to back up that statement or retract it, or you´re just going to look foolish. NO sensible administration is EVER going to base a death-penalty policy without said research, let´s be honest - and nor should they.

Some are - don´t get me wrong - and these are the ones that should be locked away in a mental assylum indefinitely at the very least - but because they´re dangerous, NOT because they´re pedophiles.

So you dont think pedophiles should be locked up ? your starting to sound like Harriet Harman.

Mr Williams

end of the road wrote: »

well with to many vidulanti vermin roming ferrel around the country i'm afraid such laws can't happen and people don't have a right to know, i and a couple of others could be trusted with such information as we'd just keep an eye on things but not behave like ferrel vermin

The law is undemocratic. Most parents would want to know if one of these beasts was living beside them.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

end of the road

Mr Williams wrote: »

So you dont think pedophiles should be locked up ? your starting to sound like Harriet Harman.

twisting peoples points as usual, its a failed tactic, always has been

end of the road

Mr Williams wrote: »

The law is undemocratic. Most parents would want to know if one of these beasts was living beside them.

well thats just tough, if people behaved themselves then maybe we could have such a public register, but they can't so we don't and hopefully won't

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mr Williams wrote: »

The statistics are BS most of them never even get caught. They are also very manipulative and clever people so its likely if they do get caught they make sure not to get caught a second time.

Mr Williams wrote: »

So you dont think pedophiles should be locked up ? your starting to sound like Harriet Harman.

Mr Williams wrote: »

Child abuse is a more serious crime than "normal" crime. You can reform a bank robber but a pedophile will always be a pedophile.

Good God, do you actually read the posts you're replying to? Most of us here can tell when someone is passing off a vague and unresearched opinion and a proven fact. You should have noticed this by now and stopped doing it

Mr Williams

end of the road wrote: »

well thats just tough, if people behaved themselves then maybe we could have such a public register, but they can't so we don't and hopefully won't

And were is the evidence that people dont behave themselves ? I have never heard of a sex offender been killed as a result of being on a public register.

You Sir are against Democracy.

Mr Williams

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Good God, do you actually read the posts you're replying to? Most of us here can tell when someone is passing off a vague and unresearched opinion and a proven fact. You should have noticed this by now and stopped doing it

What are you talking about ? Its well known that pedophiles reoffend.

I'm sick of people making excuses for these animals.

Amirani

Mr Williams wrote: »

And were is the evidence that people dont behave themselves ? I have never heard of a sex offender been killed as a result of being on a public register.

You Sir are against Democracy.

And you're not? The people of Ireland have voted against capital punishment.

Amirani

Mr Williams wrote: »

What are you talking about ? Its well known that pedophiles reoffend.

Well known how? Are you actually going to add anything to your arguments or continuously throw out rubbish you read in the Sunday World?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mr Williams wrote: »

What are you talking about ? Its well known that pedophiles reoffend.

I'm sick of people making excuses for these animals.

...which does not have anything to do with neither my post, nor my argument, and nor does it disagree with the point I made in my last post. QED.

Billy86

Mr Williams wrote: »

Child abuse is a more serious crime than "normal" crime. You can reform a bank robber but a pedophile will always be a pedophile.

Nonsense... again. What about the Asian guy who had his house broken into an was beaten so badly with hammers that the scene was described as a 'bloodbath' with neighbours being woken from their sleep from the screaming. Or the family in Tipperary who had their front window basically caved in, were tied up and terrorised with guns and a machete? I'm sure their 8, 6 and 3 year old daughters won't be traumatised for life over that of course! Or the guy who got attacked in the Great Train Robbery, had to retire because of those injuries and as a result died about a year later.

These guys re-offend at much, much higher rates than paedophiles - convicts most forms of burglary are over 4 times more likely to do so. But hey, let's not allow facts and reality and all that junk get in the way...

Not at all surprisingly, not one single person has responded to these on this thread, despite my bringing them up multiple times now.

Mr Williams wrote: »

And were is the evidence that people dont behave themselves ? I have never heard of a sex offender been killed as a result of being on a public register.

You Sir are against Democracy.

What about the guy in England who's front door was wedged shut with wheelie bins and was then burned alive? Or Lee James, who beat the disabled Bijan Ebrahimi to death and burned him outside his own home after kids called him a paedophile and neighbours made his life a living hell for taking photos of them trampling his garden to show to the police? Just within the last week a guy has been arrested on suspicion after the remains of a paedophile were found, who went missing about two weeks back.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Furthermore:

News of the World was forced into a humiliating climbdown last night as it ended its campaign of "naming and shaming" paedophiles.
...
The decision to abandon its pledge to identify up to 110,000 child sex offenders followed strong criticism from the police, politicians and children's charities. The publication of 82 names and photographs of convicted paedophiles has led to a spate of violent demonstrations and innocent people beingdriven from their homes.

The worst of the vigilante violence erupted on Thursday night in Portsmouth when a mob of 150 people wrecked the empty flat of a named offender, set fire to a car.

Thats is a sh1tload of criticism from poeple who would know.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tabloid-ends-its-naming-of-sex-offenders-711154.html

Self-styled vigilantes attacked the home of a hospital paediatrician after apparently confusing her professional title with the word "paedophile", it emerged yesterday.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/aug/30/childprotection.society

Once again, QED.

And don't go down the road of accusing said publications of being bleeding heart or some other such imagined bull**** - you quoted the Sunday World a few pages back.

Nor should you do down the road of saying it would never happen here because people are more intelligent: look at your own posts.

Not should you ask me to provide eividence that pedophiles don't reoffend - I never made that point. Just in case it needs re-emphasising.

Mr Williams

Billy86 wrote: »

Nonsense... again. What about the Asian guy who had his house broken into an was beaten so badly with hammers that the scene was described as a 'bloodbath' with neighbours being woken from their sleep from the screaming. Or the family in Tipperary who had their front window basically caved in, were tied up and terrorised with guns and a machete? I'm sure their 8, 6 and 3 year old daughters won't be traumatised for life over that of course! Or the guy who got attacked in the Great Train Robbery, had to retire because of those injuries and as a result died about a year later.

These guys re-offend at much, much higher rates than paedophiles - convicts most forms of burglary are over 4 times more likely to do so. But hey, let's not allow facts and reality and all that junk get in the way...

Not at all surprisingly, not one single person has responded to these on this thread, despite my bringing them up multiple times now.

What about the guy in England who's front door was wedged shut with wheelie bins and was then burned alive? Or Lee James, who beat the disabled Bijan Ebrahimi to death and burned him outside his own home after kids called him a paedophile and neighbours made his life a living hell for taking photos of them trampling his garden to show to the police? Just within the last week a guy has been arrested on suspicion after the remains of a paedophile were found, who went missing about two weeks back.

Yes but it happens extremely rarely. Wheelie bin man did his community a favour he should not be locked up.