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Correction for dogs
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28-06-2013 4:40pm#1I would love to hear what people on here think is an appropriate correction for a dog.
I read a thread here today where a water spray bottle was used, and it seemed to be a very unpopular 'correction method'.
I would use water as a last resort, say for instance if I have a dog that is jumping up on me. I would firstly try turning away or standing up if I'm sitting, when the dog jumps up.
If a puppy is biting I would firstly try to redirect his/hers attention on to a toy, or yelp etc.
But for both examples I would use a water spray bottle as a last resort. I do not think water is harmful for the dog, it's water after all, not acid
I'd love to hear what the rest of you think.0
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Thanks for all replies so farOP, I train dogs, and I deal with dogs with behavioural issues.
One of my dogs is trained to work as a canine professional.
Never, ever have I had to use water sprays, or any physical corrections, because I use what are considered to be ethical punishments. They are
1. Withholding a desired reward, e.g. not giving a dog who's jumping all over you any attention until his butt is on the floor,
2. Removal of a desired reward, e.g. walking straight back out of the room if the dog doesn't sit, but jumps up on you.
3. Time-outs, e.g. the dog is left in a boring place on his own for a very short duration, 30 seconds is the usual.
These three punishments can be, and are used by qualified trainers and behaviourists to extinguish unwanted behaviours.
They are ethical, extremely effective when used properly (they haven't failed me yet), and critically, do not run the risk of making a dog fearful of you, or household objects like spray bottles.
There is no need to use any form of fear as a training tool. Many people do, but the simple truth is, there is no need.
All of the above are used only when necessary, and always in alliance with rewarding the dog for offering an appropriate behaviour instead. My above example is a case in point: if the dog jumps up, he either foregoes the reward of my attention, or loses me altogether. However, if he sits, he gets all the attention and, to begin with, treats that he wants. It becomes a no-brainer for the dog, but as we seem to all agree, it does take practise and repetition!
I would most certainly not agree with using fear as a training method either, so we both agree on that!
But say for instance the 3rd example you give, that can for some dogs instill fear in them, as could water spray bottle if you use it incorrectly. Dogs are so social, and putting a dog in a time out can potentially make them very stressed, even if it is for 30 seconds only.
I'm curious about why people find water a sever correction? With any correction you should not need to use it over and over again, then it would obviously not be an effective correction.
So say if you use the spray bottle a couple of times, then the dogs stops the undesired behaviour, do you think this will cause long term damage to the dog?0 -
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Plain__Jane wrote: »Thanks for all replies so far
I would most certainly not agree with using fear as a training method either, so we both agree on that!
But say for instance the 3rd example you give, that can for some dogs instill fear in them, as could water spray bottle if you use it incorrectly. Dogs are so social, and putting a dog in a time out can potentially make them very stressed, even if it is for 30 seconds only.
I'm curious about why people find water a sever correction? With any correction you should not need to use it over and over again, then it would obviously not be an effective correction.
So say if you use the spray bottle a couple of times, then the dogs stops the undesired behaviour, do you think this will cause long term damage to the dog?
The dog might not always assume that the water is coming from the spray bottle. And I imagine depending on where you spray it, it can be quite uncomfortable and even painful, as dogs have quite sensitive noses, and no-one likes water sprayed in their eyes. The dog might learn to associate you clenching your fist to spray the bottle as a trigger, and since you are frightening and possibly hurting the dog, he or she could eventually be provoked by you into defending themselves. And that, of course, is where owners get rid of their dogs for being bad mannered and wicked.
In the wild, cheeky or unruly dogs would be excluded momentarily from pack activities to teach them a lesson in manners. 30 seconds would be just enough to teach a dog that craves attention and company that his behaviour was wrong and will result in the loss of something nice. But it will never provoke the dog into a fear-based response like a snap or bite.0 -
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Plain__Jane wrote: »If you are using an area like the kitchen, would that not potentially make the dog scared of going in to the kitchen? He might think he is being put in a time out if you call him in to the kitchen?
Would it not be more effective to use a time out area where the dog would never use in normal circumstances?
As the water would be the last resort for me, I would not use a verbal commend to go with it. I would have tried that previously, and it did not stop the behaviour I wanted to correct, hence why I used the spray bottle.
Is there not supposed to be a surprise element to a correction? As in, dog jumps up, I spray the dog with water, the dog will think, 'what the hell just happened', and then refrain from doing it again?
Maybe I have gotten it all wrong :P
If your dog is surprised he got punished, then he didn't know he was doing anything to get punished for. He really shouldn't be surprised. He knows it's wrong, was warned not to do it again, and then was punished. He could just as easily be afraid to turn his back to you in case it happens again.
No, it's on the bottom stair leading into the garage in the hall. He is never there unless he has been bold.
If you spray him with water, he doesn't see you do it, he doesn't see where it come from, then how can he deduce that it was because he jumped on you?
If he has no idea that he is doing something wrong, then he can't see the water as a punishment. And if you startle him, he is likely going to stop doing what he is doing to find out where that water came from! Just like if you were reading the newspaper and heard a crash outside your living room window, you would put down the paper and go have a look to see where the crash came from. You wouldn't think "I better not read the paper any more lest I cause more crashes"
Hopefully you see what I mean here. Essentially you could achieve the same result by clapping your hands loudly. Or letting out a high pitched squeal.0 -
Ah okay, that makes sense soShaShaBear wrote: »If your dog is surprised he got punished, then he didn't know he was doing anything to get punished for. He really shouldn't be surprised. He knows it's wrong, was warned not to do it again, and then was punished. He could just as easily be afraid to turn his back to you in case it happens again.
No, it's on the bottom stair leading into the garage in the hall. He is never there unless he has been bold.
If you spray him with water, he doesn't see you do it, he doesn't see where it come from, then how can he deduce that it was because he jumped on you?
If he has no idea that he is doing something wrong, then he can't see the water as a punishment. And if you startle him, he is likely going to stop doing what he is doing to find out where that water came from! Just like if you were reading the newspaper and heard a crash outside your living room window, you would put down the paper and go have a look to see where the crash came from. You wouldn't think "I better not read the paper any more lest I cause more crashes"
Hopefully you see what I mean here. Essentially you could achieve the same result by clapping your hands loudly. Or letting out a high pitched squeal.
Well if he has an unpleasant experience while jumping up, as would be the case with any correction used, I'm not sure how he wouldn't associate it with the jumping up.
Well as I said in the previous posts, I would have tried what you mentioned first, but that did not work, that's when I tried the water, which did work straight away
Would people consider I have done the wrong thing? Considering it worked, and I have never had to use a correction again on my dog for jumping up. He does not jump up on me, or other people anymore.0 -
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Plain__Jane wrote: »Ah okay, that makes sense so
Well if he has an unpleasant experience while jumping up, as would be the case with any correction used, I'm not sure how he wouldn't associate it with the jumping up.
Well as I said in the previous posts, I would have tried what you mentioned first, but that did not work, that's when I tried the water, which did work straight away
Would people consider I have done the wrong thing? Considering it worked, and I have never had to use a correction again on my dog for jumping up. He does not jump up on me, or other people anymore.
Simply because, unfortunately, we have no idea what dogs are thinking. He may be jumping on you, but perhaps in his head he is thinking "I want up on your lap for a cuddle". Maybe he associates the unpleasant experience with that, or maybe he is thinking "Please please I have no other idea how to get your attention but there is a nasty old cat in the garden, please let me out at him!" and he is associating the bad experience with that!
Realistically, teaching him "down" or "get down" would be far easier. He gets plenty of rewards for learning a new trick, and the verbal command, once he knows and understands it, can not be mistaken for something else. For all you know, again since we cant read dogs minds, is that your verbal warnings actually paid off and that's why he no longer does it. Perhaps you not petting him when he jumped on you taught him that this won't work for attention, and he simply isn't bothered any more.
My dog conveniently knows a few tricks that, unbeknownst to him, were taught in order to stop him being bold. They are:
Wait.
Down.
Off.
Shhh.
Drop.
All pretty self explanatory. If he is barking and I tell him to Shh, he stops, because he knows the word means no barking. If he does not shhh, I ask him again. He always stops at this stage or initially, but lets say he doesn't. I then put him on time out, as he knows he directly disobeyed my order for him to shhh. He understands I asked him to stop barking, and he knows he didn't. But really with the positive training of giving him tasty treats for stopping the barking when I say Shhh, when I do say it he stops immediately, hoping to get the praise he has associated with reacting to this word the way I taught him to. The same goes for wait, which means do not move until I tell you to (great for food, open doors, greeting people etc), down which means stop jumping on people, off which means get off the furniture (he is allowed on it, but if we have friends over I'll tell him to get off to make space - again he is happy to do so as he has always been positively rewarded for doing it) and finally drop, which means let go of whatever is in your mouth.
Basically as DBB said, ridiculous amounts of treats and praise for responding to a verbal command the way I want him to will motivate him. Just like if you train a dog to sit, he will be so excited when you say sit, and will do it with such gusto, because he is hoping for an extra special treat or belly rub. A lot of people still have trouble realising you can essentially trick your dog into having the same frame of mind with bad behaviour.0 -
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Plain__Jane wrote: »But again, the water would have been used as a last resort correction. I would have tried several different things before using it. And I would have persisted with it, I'm not one to give up easily or one to lose my patience. But finally I decided I had to try something different as I needed the jumping up to stop. I personally don't find that an excited dog that is jumping up on you listens well to a verbal command like down. It can make them even more excitable.
I would be all for using treats and rewarding good behaviour, this is something I would always have done with both of my dogs. It's part of the training sure. But I would not agree with your shh method for stopping your dog from barking, it sounds more like he will think he gets rewarded for barking.
But this was not my original question though :P
I'm more interested in hearing what people think is an acceptable correction, and what corrections you use yourself, like the timeout method you use for instance.
No, he knows the verbal command speak, and the verbal command shhh separately - so when he is barking at a cat from the patio doors and I say shh, he knows I am asking him to stop. He won't bark at me for no reason hoping Ill say shhh and give him a treat. Shadow is clever, but he is definitely not that clever
To answer your question, I do not believe in any form of correction that will result in your dog displaying fear to a physical object, be that a hand, a bottle of water, water itself, a stick etc. It can come back to bite you in the bum later, when you are doing something perfectly innocent that the dog imagines is actually about to result in his punishment. I have seen a dog who is terrified of water because of the spray bottle correction. The owners have since learned that they are never going to be able to give him a bath, and he will never enjoy fetching sticks in a lake.
All dogs are different, but just because something works well with one dog does not make it right, nor does it mean that it will work for every dog. All it takes is for the dog to have the wrong sort of temperament and that fear can cause serious problems.0 -
To be fair that sounds like an over the top reaction to the water bottle. Of course I don't know how the owner used it, but I did not have this issue with my dog.ShaShaBear wrote: »No, he knows the verbal command speak, and the verbal command shhh separately - so when he is barking at a cat from the patio doors and I say shh, he knows I am asking him to stop. He won't bark at me for no reason hoping Ill say shhh and give him a treat. Shadow is clever, but he is definitely not that clever
To answer your question, I do not believe in any form of correction that will result in your dog displaying fear to a physical object, be that a hand, a bottle of water, water itself, a stick etc. It can come back to bite you in the bum later, when you are doing something perfectly innocent that the dog imagines is actually about to result in his punishment. I have seen a dog who is terrified of water because of the spray bottle correction. The owners have since learned that they are never going to be able to give him a bath, and he will never enjoy fetching sticks in a lake.
All dogs are different, but just because something works well with one dog does not make it right, nor does it mean that it will work for every dog. All it takes is for the dog to have the wrong sort of temperament and that fear can cause serious problems.
I do not think I scared the living daylight out of my dog by using water on him, he is not scared of me or of water. Again, maybe it was the way I used it
Of course, you need to use different methods depending on the dog, so I agree with you fully on that point.
One thing I have seen over and over when out walking is, a dog jumps up on the owner and the owner shouts to the dog, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit. The dog might eventually sit, or the owner sometimes gives up, and eventually pushes the dog down. With a verbal command like that it just does not work, I can almost guarantee you that the owner will have to do the same thing over and over, then to me it's not working. You need to try something different.0 -
Plain__Jane wrote: »To be fair that sounds like an over the top reaction to the water bottle. Of course I don't know how the owner used it, but I did not have this issue with my dog.
I do not think I scared the living daylight out of my dog by using water on him, he is not scared of me or of water. Again, maybe it was the way I used it
Of course, you need to use different methods depending on the dog, so I agree with you fully on that point.
One thing I have seen over and over when out walking is, a dog jumps up on the owner and the owner shouts to the dog, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit. The dog might eventually sit, or the owner sometimes gives up, and eventually pushes the dog down. With a verbal command like that it just does not work, I can almost guarantee you that the owner will have to do the same thing over and over, then to me it's not working. You need to try something different.
In my opinion, but again because I know my dog, if he stopped obeying verbal commands, I would go back to basics and teach them to him again. It could be quite possible in that case that you described, that the dog was not asked to sit on a regular basis, and they just assumed (as most people would, so there is nothing wrong with it!) that since the dog was taught the trick, they would do it. I go over my dog's arsenal of tricks daily. It's mental stimulation for him (since he can't walk so much any more) and I mix up the order so it helps him get out of the cheeky habit of knowing which trick comes next and doing it before I ask I imagine if, for the next three months, I never again asked him to sit, he might have a bit of trouble understanding me when I eventually did say it. 0 -
I actually think this is more because some dog owners, don't follow through with that the owner asks the dog to do.ShaShaBear wrote: »In my opinion, but again because I know my dog, if he stopped obeying verbal commands, I would go back to basics and teach them to him again. It could be quite possible in that case that you described, that the dog was not asked to sit on a regular basis, and they just assumed (as most people would, so there is nothing wrong with it!) that since the dog was taught the trick, they would do it. I go over my dog's arsenal of tricks daily. It's mental stimulation for him (since he can't walk so much any more) and I mix up the order so it helps him get out of the cheeky habit of knowing which trick comes next and doing it before I ask I imagine if, for the next three months, I never again asked him to sit, he might have a bit of trouble understanding me when I eventually did say it.
And the repeating of commands it's not something I would be a fan of either way. I want my dog to listen straight away, I don't want to have to ask them ten times before they listen to me. Of course this is something you teach them gradually, I would not expect a young pup to get it straight away 0 -
Plain__Jane wrote: »I actually think this is more because some dog owners, don't follow through with that the owner asks the dog to do.
And the repeating of commands it's not something I would be a fan of either way. I want my dog to listen straight away, I don't want to have to ask them ten times before they listen to me. Of course this is something you teach them gradually, I would not expect a young pup to get it straight away
Oh you're right, sometimes people just give up on the command, and give the dog a treat anyway, or give the dog a treat for "almost" getting it right, which is no good. Some dogs have a much shorter attention span than others when it comes to commands. Its just a matter of finding out what holds their attention the longest.
Oh and I meant I spend a few minutes every day going over Shadow's tricks, not that I have to teach him every day. Its actually because we have trouble getting him to eat at regular times, so he performs his tricks for his nuts instead. They apparently taste 27 times nicer from my hand than they do from a metal bowl :rolleyes:0 -
Plain__Jane wrote: »If you are using an area like the kitchen, would that not potentially make the dog scared of going in to the kitchen? He might think he is being put in a time out if you call him in to the kitchen?
Would it not be more effective to use a time out area where the dog would never use in normal circumstances?
It's always been a thing amongst trainers that the dog should not be put on a time-out in a place you don't want him associating with punishment. However, there is a question mark over this now. A nice example I was given by a well-known behaviourist was punishing a child by sending them to their room. This is a time-out, and I know one that I was subjected to on the very few occasions I was bold :P
It didn't teach me to hate my bedroom though. It did teach me to hate the not being able to do what I wanted to do!As the water would be the last resort for me, I would not use a verbal commend to go with it. I would have tried that previously, and it did not stop the behaviour I wanted to correct, hence why I used the spray bottle.
Can you tell me, as one of the things you tried to stop him jumping up, did this include you disappearing? Just turning and walking right out of the room, every time he did it?
I'm asking because every dog, and I've met some serious, serious jumper-uppers, eventually responded to this, in conjunction with asking them to sit instead. Now, very occasionally, you'd have to turn your back and retreat dozens of times in the first few hours, but even the worst dogs eventually stopped jumping after quite a short time, and then started sitting because this was all that'd work for them.Is there not supposed to be a surprise element to a correction? As in, dog jumps up, I spray the dog with water, the dog will think, 'what the hell just happened', and then refrain from doing it again?
A correction, in the traditional sense, means giving the dog a fright, and/or causing it pain/discomfort, in order to stop it carrying out a behaviour. Corrections in this context are now considered unacceptable because there are kinder, less potentially damaging consequences we can offer for unwanted behaviours.
You'll note my emphasis on the word "potentially", because whilst some corrections will really psychologically harm most dogs (they're pretty obvious!), there are milder corrections that won't do such damage to all dogs.. but the trouble is they will do damage to some dogs.
Now, no owner can know in advance whether theirs is going to fall into the first (undamaged) category, or the second (damaged) category, so it really is a game of Russian Roulette for the dog. I suppose that's one of the reasons why people get so upset here when owners come asking for advice about, say, choke chains, radio collars, remote-control e-collars, anti-bark collars etc etc, because we know there's a risk when using these things, but there is no way of telling in advance whether the dog is going to be unaffected, or devastated by it. But the owner ploughs ahead and uses the thing anyway.
Not that I want for a moment to put a water spray in the same category as any of the above, but the same basic point remains... whilst it worked on your dog, I know so many dogs who have reacted really badly to it, including several dogs who have actually attacked their owners when they see the bottle coming out
There have also been incidents where the dog did not necessarily associate the water spray with jumping up (or whatever), but "blames" the unpleasant jet of water on the child/dog/cat that happened to be standing nearby.
There is also the possibility, and I'm just throwing it out there, that it worked so well on your dog because he found it an utterly and completely awful experience, not just mildly aversive. I don't want to make you feel bad, but it is a possibility. In fact, if it worked after just one or two repetitions, it could be argued that is is a distinct possibility.
I've been there myself you know! I was a water-squirting, coke-can rattling, choke-chain-using, radio-fence-using dog owner once! Then I went and studied animal behaviour and welfare
Again, it comes down to degree, doesn't it? For me, and for trainers and behaviourists who have signed up to professional organisations with codes of conduct/ethics etc, there is always a kinder option, an option which will not pose a risk to the dog's future behaviour. There is the bottom line for a good trainer, an expression coined by Karen Pryor (clicker training doyenne): Do No Harm. We cannot embrace that if we use aversives in training.
Whilst I wouldn't agree with you having used the water bottle, bearing in mind I used to use them myself too, I have to say I utterly applaud you for asking questions here, and trying to gain an understanding of the nuts and bolts of why X works, why Y doesn't, and what's the grey area in between! I think it's great to be able to discuss these things rationallyMaybe I have gotten it all wrong :P 0 -
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