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Feeling robbed by solictors

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  • 28-06-2013 5:40pm
    #1
    mr.dunkey
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭


    I am just coming to a close on my house and feel so cheated by my solicitor and my Mortgage broker for their recommendation.
    The initial quote i got off my solicitor was excluding VAT which i wasn't aware of, and i asked was it including everything and have no other charges.They said it was all in.I'm now presented with a bill with charges for clerk fees, comm of oaths etc on top of the arranged price.I sure they have it in small print about these charges somewhere.I was also promised online access to my account to see how far things are progressing and never was able to access it with the Passwords i got.
    I have a feeling that this is a regular trick to home buyers.Has anyone had this before or advice.


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    #2
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    It's illegal for them to give you a price excluding VAT.

    You may want to remind them,
    Under the Tax Inclusive Order 1973 costs of all consumer products and services must be VAT inclusive. If any business fails to display their prices as the law dictates, the National Consumer Agency can investigate this matter. Products sold in the course of a business intended for commercial customers such as "Trade Only" are allowed show prices that exclude the VAT element.


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    #3
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    It's very common for solicitors to quote ex-vat, in fact almost all do AFAIK. If you have a complaint I'd suggest the Law Society rather than the NCA. The NCA are toothless at best and in this case rather irrelevant in my opinion.


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    #4
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    OP I don't know how you are feeling robbed. No solicitor quotes all in, nobody can tell exactly how much work will be involved in the conveyance process before it begins and therefore its impossible to quote an exact price.

    its also normal for a solicitor to quote ex vat.

    I understand your pissed off because you misunderstood but you haven't been cheated and why you think your broker deserves flack for recommending them is beyond me.


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    #5
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    D3PO wrote: »
    ...
    its also normal for a solicitor to quote ex vat....
    I know it's common practice, but that does not mean it is right or defensible.


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    #6
    mr.dunkey
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭mr.dunkey


    D3PO wrote: »
    OP I don't know how you are feeling robbed. No solicitor quotes all in, nobody can tell exactly how much work will be involved in the conveyance process before it begins and therefore its impossible to quote an exact price.

    its also normal for a solicitor to quote ex vat.

    I understand your pissed off because you misunderstood but you haven't been cheated and why you think your broker deserves flack for recommending them is beyond me.

    That is why i asked was it for everything as i have heard horror stories about been charged for all sorts of little charges.I would of been happy if they would have told me there would be small extra charges for X and Y. I didn't know as its my first time that we you cannot get an all in price.


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    #7
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Whats the difference between the original price quoted and the price you are now being charged?


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    #8
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    mr.dunkey wrote: »
    That is why i asked was it for everything as i have heard horror stories about been charged for all sorts of little charges.I would of been happy if they would have told me there would be small extra charges for X and Y. I didn't know as its my first time that we you cannot get an all in price.

    yeah they probably could have been clearer in explaining it to you but its not even a case of extra small charges who knows what will come up in conveyancing that can add more than small little extra charges to the final bill.

    when getting a solicitor you can base who to go with on their professional fees but not on a total quote. I dunno how much your paying but if you want to let us know the breakdown we can perhaps let you know if it is a reasonable amount or not.


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    #9
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    D3PO wrote: »
    yeah they probably could have been clearer in explaining it to you but its not even a case of extra small charges who knows what will come up in conveyancing that can add more than small little extra charges to the final bill.

    Im not really buying this, when I bought my home I asked for a quote for conveyancing, was given it, and at the end of the process he tried to charge me 250 more, at which point I produced his original written quote and he immediately crossed out the total and rewrote it 250 less.

    Surely solicitors who do conveyancing are familiar with the various costs and can give a reasonable quote upfront.


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    #10
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    username123 wrote: »
    Im not really buying this, when I bought my home I asked for a quote for conveyancing, was given it, and at the end of the process he tried to charge me 250 more, at which point I produced his original written quote and he immediately crossed out the total and rewrote it 250 less.

    Surely solicitors who do conveyancing are familiar with the various costs and can give a reasonable quote upfront.

    If they were to do that then they would have to increase everybodies quotes to cover for the ones that become difficult and costly. So the majority would lose out to suit the minority.

    It is impossible for a solicitor who does nothing but conveyancing to give you an exact quote, its impossible to know what will crop up before it does.


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    #11
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    mr.dunkey wrote: »
    I am just coming to a close on my house and feel so cheated by my solicitor and my Mortgage broker for their recommendation.
    The initial quote i got off my solicitor was excluding VAT which i wasn't aware of, and i asked was it including everything and have no other charges.They said it was all in.I'm now presented with a bill with charges for clerk fees, comm of oaths etc on top of the arranged price.I sure they have it in small print about these charges somewhere.I was also promised online access to my account to see how far things are progressing and never was able to access it with the Passwords i got.
    I have a feeling that this is a regular trick to home buyers.Has anyone had this before or advice.

    So your solicitor quoted you a price to cover his work, and informed you that price was plus VAT so seems ok. The other charges are what is called outlays in other words the monies your solicitor pays to third parties on your behalf. These fees can be tiny or very large depending on the file and are always excluded from the solicitors fees and no solicitor will ever include them in his brief fee.

    Did the fee for your solicitors work increase.


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    #12
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    infosys wrote: »
    So your solicitor quoted you a price to cover his work, and informed you that price was plus VAT so seems ok. The other charges are what is called outlays in other words the monies your solicitor pays to third parties on your behalf. These fees can be tiny or very large depending on the file and are always excluded from the solicitors fees and no solicitor will ever include them in his brief fee.

    Did the fee for your solicitors work increase.


    exactly right. Professional fees wont change but the outlays that cannot be quoted for in advance will add to the price. Its normal process.

    I would be sure that the professional fees on the quote and final invoice have not changed.


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    #13
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    D3PO wrote: »
    It is impossible for a solicitor who does nothing but conveyancing to give you an exact quote, its impossible to know what will crop up before it does.

    Nonsense. Part of any quote is profit for the solicitor - the charge for their time. The solicitor should be able to give a straight quote and there will be times when their cut is slightly higher or lower - if they are clever they will quote enough to cover themselves.

    OR they will be clear its just an estimate.

    The business about increasing everybodies quotes is just silly, anyone who runs a business like that shouldnt be in business.


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    #14
    hfallada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭hfallada


    OP just tell them you cant afford it and all you have is the original price ex VAT. My mothers friend got a legal bill of €100k from a lengthy divorce and told the solicitor she couldnt pay it. He phoned her back and told her he will settle for €70k.


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    #15
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    hfallada wrote: »
    OP just tell them you cant afford it and all you have is the original price ex VAT. My mothers friend got a legal bill of €100k from a lengthy divorce and told the solicitor she couldnt pay it. He phoned her back and told her he will settle for €70k.

    This is something that makes my blood boil, how in gods name can normal person come up with a €100k. On long running issues solicitors should really send out interim bills. Clients should really tell a solicitor that limits apply especially in divorce and when the bill is say 5 or 10 k then they should have a chat, it is very unfair to land a 100k bill on any one I accept the work was done and it took years but still.


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    #16
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    username123 wrote: »
    Nonsense. Part of any quote is profit for the solicitor - the charge for their time. The solicitor should be able to give a straight quote and there will be times when their cut is slightly higher or lower - if they are clever they will quote enough to cover themselves.

    OR they will be clear its just an estimate.

    The business about increasing everybodies quotes is just silly, anyone who runs a business like that shouldnt be in business.


    Look with all due respect you have no idea clearly of what's involved in terms of the conveyancing process and what charges can occur.

    I don't understand how people can argue a point when they actually don't understand the opposing point of view.

    You know what your professional fee will be, after that weather you go to any solicitor in the country or did the conveyancing yourself you cannot change what the other charges will be.

    They exist and cant be changed and cannot be understood in advance. They can vary from hundreds to many many thousands of euro.


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    #17
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    hfallada wrote: »
    OP just tell them you cant afford it and all you have is the original price ex VAT. My mothers friend got a legal bill of €100k from a lengthy divorce and told the solicitor she couldnt pay it. He phoned her back and told her he will settle for €70k.

    different situation.

    Most of the solicitors bill isn't for the solicitor in a house purchase its for your charges.

    stamp duty, land registration fees, clerk fees, commission of oaths fees etc.

    Telling them you cant afford them wont make them disappear nor will they be written down.


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    #18
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    username123 wrote: »
    Nonsense. Part of any quote is profit for the solicitor - the charge for their time. The solicitor should be able to give a straight quote and there will be times when their cut is slightly higher or lower - if they are clever they will quote enough to cover themselves.

    OR they will be clear its just an estimate.

    The business about increasing everybodies quotes is just silly, anyone who runs a business like that shouldnt be in business.

    A solicitor charges for his time that bit is simple. In any file there may be very little outlays or a lot, say there is a question about mapping then a large fee paid to a mapper or engineer may be needed to get that sorted, there are fees for searches against the property and the people they have to be paid for, some transactions may only require one set of searches another may require multiple searches. There may or may not be commissioner for oaths fees it might be just one signature or it could be lots. There may or may not be stamp duty, registration fees etc.all these figures are different for each case. Remember the solicitor pays these as a service for the client and then collects it from the client at the end, what you want a solicitor to charge €2000 plus vat and pay all the outlays of say €3000 out of that, or would you prefer the solicitor to ask the client to drop in each outlay before the solicitor will even pay it. An average sized solicitors office has at any time thousands of euro they have paid in outlays on behalf of clients they do not charge interest on this money and in many cases don't collect for months or years after paying it.


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    #19
    bmm
    Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭bmm


    Solicitors rob people! Period! ( As they say in America ) . Allot of solicitors wear nice clothes, have nice cars and live in big houses! Especially barristers ! They really know how to charge !

    Every other profession will give you a quote and stick to it. Plumbers, electricians, gardeners, dentists . Every other profession might even do more work than what they charge for !!!!! Shock horror!!

    Solicitors rob people! Period! And if you don''t pay they'll sue you! ( And charge you for it ! )

    D3PO, Get real !!!


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    #20
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    bmm wrote: »
    Solicitors rob people! Period! ( As they say in America ) . Allot of solicitors wear nice clothes, have nice cars and live in big houses! Especially barristers ! They really know how to charge !

    Every other profession will give you a quote and stick to it. Plumbers, electricians, gardeners, dentists . Every other profession might even do more work than what they charge for !!!!! Shock horror!!

    Solicitors rob people! Period! And if you don''t pay they'll sue you! ( And charge you for it ! )

    D3PO, Get real !!!

    Are you having a period period!


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    #21
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    bmm wrote: »
    Solicitors rob people! Period! ( As they say in America ) . Allot of solicitors wear nice clothes, have nice cars and live in big houses! Especially barristers ! They really know how to charge !

    Every other profession will give you a quote and stick to it. Plumbers, electricians, gardeners, dentists . Every other profession might even do more work than what they charge for !!!!! Shock horror!!

    Solicitors rob people! Period! And if you don''t pay they'll sue you! ( And charge you for it ! )

    D3PO, Get real !!!

    ROFL a solicitor is not a barrister. Most barristers are dirt poor, we're talking barely enough to put petrol in the car. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

    You think no one has ever been taken for a ride by a plumber. Have you contacted NASA to inform them of life on the planet you live on?


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    #22
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,379 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    D3PO wrote: »
    OP I don't know how you are feeling robbed. No solicitor quotes all in, nobody can tell exactly how much work will be involved in the conveyance process before it begins and therefore its impossible to quote an exact price.

    When I bought they quoted all in and that is what I paid. They did emphasise it was ex VAT though. Not sure why they do this.


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    #23
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    When I bought they quoted all in and that is what I paid. They did emphasise it was ex VAT though. Not sure why they do this.

    To be fair when I bought it was also an all in pack too, through the broker.

    OP I'd seriously consider a complaint to the law society if you feel hard done by.


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    #24
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Follow my advice and you'll not pay extra


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    #25
    Monife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,014 ✭✭✭Monife


    bmm wrote: »
    Solicitors rob people! Period! ( As they say in America ) . Allot of solicitors wear nice clothes, have nice cars and live in big houses! Especially barristers ! They really know how to charge !

    Every other profession will give you a quote and stick to it. Plumbers, electricians, gardeners, dentists . Every other profession might even do more work than what they charge for !!!!! Shock horror!!

    Solicitors rob people! Period! And if you don''t pay they'll sue you! ( And charge you for it ! )

    D3PO, Get real !!!

    You need to "get real". Unless you have worked in a legal firm, you have no idea what you are talking about. The fees earned by solicitors now are not representative of the amount of work they do and the majority receive only a very small percentage of the fees.

    OP, I work in conveyancing and it is the norm to quote the fee ex. VAT plus outlay incurred which could be searches (planning searches could be between €45 and €200 easily), swearing fees, courier fees, copy folio's from the Land Registry, lodging/stamping documents, obtaining letters from the county council (who can charge between €25 and €125 for this service).

    Like previously said, you could post the rough breakdown of your invoice and we can tell you if you have been ripped off.


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    #26
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    bmm wrote: »
    Solicitors rob people! Period! ( As they say in America ) . Allot of solicitors wear nice clothes, have nice cars and live in big houses! Especially barristers ! They really know how to charge !

    Every other profession will give you a quote and stick to it. Plumbers, electricians, gardeners, dentists . Every other profession might even do more work than what they charge for !!!!! Shock horror!!

    Solicitors rob people! Period! And if you don''t pay they'll sue you! ( And charge you for it ! )

    D3PO, Get real !!!

    Did you mean to post this in the humour forum ?

    You have to just laugh at some people.


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    #27
    mr.dunkey
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭mr.dunkey


    username123 wrote: »
    Whats the difference between the original price quoted and the price you are now being charged?
    I was aware of land registry, But charges for bankruptcy checks, comm of oats etc is additional and was never at anytime explained. The extra charges is 400euro. Not a huge amount but when you have planned for a certain amount its very annoying.


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    #28
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    bmm wrote: »
    Solicitors rob people! Period! ( As they say in America ) . Allot of solicitors wear nice clothes, have nice cars and live in big houses! Especially barristers ! They really know how to charge !

    Every other profession will give you a quote and stick to it. Plumbers, electricians, gardeners, dentists . Every other profession might even do more work than what they charge for !!!!! Shock horror!!

    Solicitors rob people! Period! And if you don''t pay they'll sue you! ( And charge you for it ! )

    D3PO, Get real !!!

    Many thanks for your positive and helpful contribution. A Solicitor's fees are very different from the outlay which a solicitor has paid on your behalf, in a conveyance the outlays are usually 3 or 4 times the fees.
    mr.dunkey wrote: »
    I was aware of land registry, But charges for bankruptcy checks, comm of oats etc is additional and was never at anytime explained. The extra charges is 400euro. Not a huge amount but when you have planned for a certain amount its very annoying.

    Its not possible to know ahead of time all the outlays that will be necessary, without the outlays the conveyance can't happen. The solicitor gains absolutely no benefit from additional outlays.

    Contrary to one poster's suggestion, Solicitors do not take "a cut", they charge professional fees. If a client is unhappy with the fees charged (as distinct from outlays) they can and should complain to the Law Society who will be more than happy to deal with the matter.


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