New Nissan Leaf from €20,990

http://www.nissan.ie/vehicles/leaf/

Please no anti E.V Trolling !!!

The Basic XE model starts at €20,990

The SV € 23,990

The top of the range SV €26,390

EPA range tested as 75 miles compared to 73 for the old one but Note that the EPA this time tested with 80% charge ! range on 100% charge is around 84 miles.

The Basic has the older heater and not the much more and highly recommended efficient heat Pump. And has the fast charge as an option, you'd be mad not to have the quick charge.

Not mentioned on the Irish site is the B mode for extra strong regen which recaptures more energy going down hill. Driving in this mode is inefficient.

All models have the 6.6 kw charger as an option. Which means it will charge in 4 hrs compared to 8 hrs from 0% from your home 32 amp charger.

The 6.6kw charger would also mean charging twice as fast as the old model from an ESB public charger that is not a fast DC charger.

The Basic model afaik does (NOT) have the Nissan carwings which allows you to remote start the heater, A/C and even start or stop charging.

The basic model with QC is €21,490 which is just 1400 more than the Diesel Nissan Note but much, much cheaper to run and service.

A lot more fast chargers cropping up and hotels installing slow chargers enough for an overnight stay.

The Basic model with Quick charge and 6.6kw charger would imo be the basic you should ever go.

No reports of battery issues in Ireland or the U.K or in all of Europe, no reports of anyone missing capacity bars after 50,000+ miles.

You can get a 2011 Leaf in the U.K for 16,000 Euro's now that will be a much higher spec car than the lower 2 of the facelift Leaf.

Thinkingaboutit

Looks interesting.

TCP/IP

Why is it only 84 mile range why has battery tech not moved on to levels that can supply a range of 250/300 miles? EV are a great idea but the tech is holding back large scale adoption.

marketty

Are we still expecting the Renault Zoë later this year? The lower initial cost and the battery leasing arrangement seem like a better deal than the leaf

TCP/IP

TCP/IP wrote: »

Why is it only 84 mile range why has battery tech not moved on to levels that can supply a range of 250/300 miles? EV are a great idea but the tech is holding back large scale adoption.

Cost. The Tesla Model S has a range of 300 miles for the 84 kwh battery, the Leaf has 24 kwh and 21 usable.

The Model S costs a hell of a lot more especially when it gets to Ireland with all the taxes that you don't pay in the U.S.

In fact a Leaf is around 5,000 Euro cheaper in the U.S and they can Lease for around 200 Euro's a month, we really get shafted in Europe.

The toyota Rav 4 ev only sold in the U.S of course has a 140 mile real range. It uses a Tesla electrics and battery.

marketty

marketty wrote: »

Are we still expecting the Renault Zoë later this year? The lower initial cost and the battery leasing arrangement seem like a better deal than the leaf

Not necessarily, think about it, leasing over x amount of years would mean you'd pay for a replacement reconditioned battery anyway, renting means they will guarantee you 70% or above capacity not 100%.

Zoe is now supposed to be available in 2014 in Ireland, possibly late Autumn. They use LGchem batteries unlike the NEC ones in the Leaf.

Zoe is unique in that it has an on board 44kw charger and only needs 3 phase power. Homes or businesses with 3 phase power could charge in 1 hour from pushing it to your door empty.

lotusm

fromthe website it says ... "New LEAF is more agile than before thanks to a comprehensive raft of chassis changes while it will go further on a single charge. The NEDC range has increased from 175 km/h to 199 km/h thanks to a series of engineering improvements."

124 mile range .... what is the truth....

lotusm

lotusm wrote: »

fromthe website it says ... "New LEAF is more agile than before thanks to a comprehensive raft of chassis changes while it will go further on a single charge. The NEDC range has increased from 175 km/h to 199 km/h thanks to a series of engineering improvements."

124 mile range .... what is the truth....

The truth is just like any other manufacturer claims with their car and depending on how you drive it.

at 70 mph you could expect 60-65 miles range. But average is 70-120 miles.

Winter reduces range though as some users point out that if charging the battery it becomes warm, especially fast charging which can help in winter.

We really need work place chargers installed for those who need to use them.

Anyone driving from Carlow/Kilkenny etc to Luas Red Cow can charge there no problem and currently all public charging is free.

marketty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not necessarily, think about it, leasing over x amount of years would mean you'd pay for a replacement reconditioned battery anyway, renting means they will guarantee you 70% or above capacity not 100%.

Zoe is now supposed to be available in 2014 in Ireland, possibly late Autumn. They use LGchem batteries unlike the NEC ones in the Leaf.

Zoe is unique in that it has an on board 44kw charger and only needs 3 phase power. Homes or businesses with 3 phase power could charge in 1 hour from pushing it to your door empty.

Well in my situation with a 100km round trip each day the low mileage limit on the zoe lease would be a deal breaker anyway ( I've seen on other threads here, €80pm for 10,000km/year). But a leaf with a max range of 120km on a charge with a brand new 100% capacity battery isn't gonna hack it either. I'd love to go electric but I would need range to be about 150km minimum (ie 80% capacity, winter, heater on etc). I'd say that's a fairly reasonable expectation within the next 5 years or so.

marketty

marketty wrote: »

Well in my situation with a 100km round trip each day the low mileage limit on the zoe lease would be a deal breaker anyway ( I've seen on other threads here, €80pm for 10,000km/year). But a leaf with a max range of 120km on a charge with a brand new 100% capacity battery isn't gonna hack it either. I'd love to go electric but I would need range to be about 150km minimum (ie 80% capacity, winter, heater on etc). I'd say that's a fairly reasonable expectation within the next 5 years or so.

What is your route and can you not fast charge on route or plug in at work ?

Some commutes have slower driving than others which helps greatly, my previous commute got me to work the same average time at 80-100 kph than 120-130 kph and was less stressful.

I appreciate it won't work out for many people but it would for most of the population.

The rental thing means you still pay the same money you just don't have to borrow it and pay interest, however depending on how long you keep the car you may end up paying more in the long run. And if your battery reaches 70% capacity they will not put in a brand new one, renting battery or not.

TCP/IP

9.3 million has been spend on charging infrastructure and with only 259 ev cars on the road it seems like such a waste of money.

Zcott

TCP/IP wrote: »

9.3 million has been spend on charging infrastructure and with only 259 ev cars on the road it seems like such a waste of money.

Chicken and egg situation. No one would buy an EV without the infrastructure in place, but more people need to buy EVs to make it worthwhile.

marketty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What is your route and can you not fast charge on route or plug in at work ?

Some commutes have slower driving than others which helps greatly, my previous commute got me to work the same average time at 80-100 kph than 120-130 kph and was less stressful.

I could go one route 80km/h 100km round trip, or motorway 120km/h and 120km round trip. So in an electric I'd take the 80km/h route, same as I do now. Fast charging en route, no way, I spend enough time on the road and fannying around petrol stations as it is. Charging at work also not an option, my employer is so 'energy aware' they don't even like you charging your phone never mind your car!
If ESB could convince more employers to install chargers with a pay as you go system in their car parks that would be a step forward

marketty

marketty wrote: »

Charging at work also not an option, my employer is so 'energy aware' they don't even like you charging your phone never mind your car!
If ESB could convince more employers to install chargers with a pay as you go system in their car parks that would be a step forward

We need an E.U directive to install work chargers and only allow those who travel far enough to use them and that would greatly cut the cost of installing a lot more chargers than are needed.

Work chargers would effectively double your range.

As I did earlier those who drive to the Luas have a huge advantage and great potential to reduce their commuting costs.

My previous work route had an older national road and motorway and I took the older for as at 100 kph it was faster than the motorway as it was 7 km shorter so I was saving even more fuel by going the shorter route at 100 kph.

Atlantic Dawn

Great price for them. Read today that there's more charging points in Ireland than actrual electric cars to use them which should mean you pretty much have the pick of the bunch anywhere you go.

If they were to go mainstream to perhaps get say 10% of the cars on the road I can see there being issues at charge points at places of work, hotels etc, who decided who gets to use the chargepoint?

RedorDead

Deleted User wrote: »

Please no anti E.V Trolling !!!

This isnt trolling because it is fact. While the price drop is to be welcomed, the range is still far short of what it needs to be to make EVs work in Ireland. You need a range of at least 300km at 120km/h with air con on and 4 people with bags in car etc to make EVs work here. Until it gets there it will be a city dwellers car only. PHEV are a far more viable option in the short to medium term.

RedorDead

RedorDead wrote: »

This isnt trolling because it is fact. While the price drop is to be welcomed, the range is still far short of what it needs to be to make EVs work in Ireland. You need a range of at least 300km at 120km/h with air con on and 4 people with bags in car etc to make EVs work here. Until it gets there it will be a city dwellers car only. PHEV are a far more viable option in the short to medium term.

Of course the range won't suit everyone so they won't buy one but they are suitable for far more than city driving.

If I was to drive to the luas every day they would be around 84 miles 134 Kms around 20,000 miles a year, I'd hardly call that impractical and 225-250 Kms a day could easily be got from Luas charging, or work charging.

Failing that 5-10 mins fast charging maybe all you need to get home.

Why carry a big heavy expensive battery that you'll rarely use ? Faster charging would be better.

Currently people see little incentive to go electric as petrol and diesel is still affordable for all but the longest distance driver or commuter and one can buy a cheap car and pay 20 a week in petrol and so paying much less in electricity costs doesn't matter to them.

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Great price for them. Read today that there's more charging points in Ireland than actrual electric cars to use them which should mean you pretty much have the pick of the bunch anywhere you go.

If they were to go mainstream to perhaps get say 10% of the cars on the road I can see there being issues at charge points at places of work, hotels etc, who decided who gets to use the chargepoint?

As demand grows the ESB have said they will install more chargers.

Afaik you can pre book a hotel charger.

Tesla are installing super chargers in the U.S which are twice as fast as the ones here would be capable of charging the leaf from 0-80% in 15 mins, if the Leaf were capable of charging that fast of course.

galwaytt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Of course the range won't suit everyone so they won't buy one but they are suitable for far more than city driving.

If I was to drive to the list every day they would be around 84 miles 134 Kms around 20,000 miles a year, I'd hardly call that impractical and 225-250 Kms a day could easily be got from Luas charging, or work charging.

Failing that 5-10 mins fast charging maybe all you need to get home.

Why carry a big heavy expensive battery that you'll rarely use ? Faster charging would be better.

Currently people see little incentive to go electric as petrol and diesel is still affordable for all but the longest distance driver or commuter and one can buy a cheap car and pay 20 a week in petrol and so paying much less in electricity costs doesn't matter to them.

Thats not enough. If a whole bunch of people buy EV's and turn up to a car park with only 1 or two chargers, some won't get home. Their popularity could work against their success.

Either that or a rumble in the car park !

colm_mcm

galwaytt wrote: »

Thats not enough. If a whole bunch of people buy EV's and turn up to a car park with only 1 or two chargers, some won't get home. Their popularity could work against their success.

Either that or a rumble in the car park !

Be grand...

Bigus

I think the real benefit of electric cars is unseen at the moment, and that's their Mechanical simplicity and potential longevity.

Modern petrol and diesel cars are becoming ridiculously complicated and maintenance intensive due to dpfs , dual mass flywheels , turbos, electronics, etc

In the near future tighter emissions controls may be impossible to get through future NCT tests.

So in the real world a leaf might make a very cheap proposition over 20 years ownership for most people , unless you live in Dublin and have a holiday home in Dingle. Other than that they would suit a lot of people.

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Be grand...

Haha Colm, that was funny ,

galwaytt

galwaytt wrote: »

Thats not enough. If a whole bunch of people buy EV's and turn up to a car park with only 1 or two chargers, some won't get home. Their popularity could work against their success.

Either that or a rumble in the car park !

I don't know because I think there are a lot of people who won't need to charge, at public chargers, it would mainly be people like me who to get to Dublin city might park at Luas and charge there. sometimes we would go to Jervis but they don't have the cop on to install chargers there and even if they did they might well be the ultra slow chargers like they have at the airport which are completely useless for me. So the Public chargers from the ESB as the ones at Luas would suit me best with the 6.5 kw charger in the facelift Leaf after 1-2 hours are plenty for a 50 mile return trip.

galwaytt

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know because I think there are a lot of people who won't need to charge, at public chargers, it would mainly be people like me who to get to Dublin city might park at Luas and charge there. sometimes we would go to Jervis but they don't have the cop on to install chargers there and even if they did they might well be the ultra slow chargers like they have at the airport which are completely useless for me. So the Public chargers from the ESB as the ones at Luas would suit me best with the 6.5 kw charger in the facelift Leaf after 1-2 hours are plenty for a 50 mile return trip.

Yes, but there are scenarios such as:

1. Too many people, needing a (fixed no & fixed location) of chargers at the same time.
2. Outside of a small minority on a short (sub 2 hr) shopping trip, no-one who works will be able to park their car in (say) a public car park and come back to free it up after a few hours - they'll just leave their car on charge all day. Now, one way of getting around this is to have your 'charging card' actually CHARGE you for parking once the charge level as measured by the station is above xx% of battery storage. This way you WILL come back and free up the charging bay for the next hopeful, to avoid the parking charges. In many respects the EV charger stations are seen as 'free parking' as well. That's ok so long as there's only a couple of hundred cars in the country. Make it 1000's - or 10's of 1000's - and that advantage will quickly disappear.
3. Chargers at home are grand for those with houses/driveways/garages. Those in urban centres with communcal parking, apartment blocks etc haven't a hope of getting a home charger installed.
4. Logically, and EXACTLY as we have seen with regard to the low CO2 tax regime, once a critical mass of EV's becomes evident, the loss of revenue to the State in terms of VRT and low motor tax means that they WILL ratchet up taxes to replace 'lost revenue' to existing motor tax levels. Maybe even higher, to claw back just some of the (lack of) revenue from fossil fuels they DON'T use............I wouldn't put it past them. So then what ? a flight back to petrol/diesel ?


In some respects, EV's will work for those best, as long as it remains the "best kept secret".

I'm a petrol head, and i'd buy one - but seeing as my last bangernomic car cost €150, then EV's capital costs have a long way to go !!

Ded_Zebra

I find peoples attitude towards electric cars, particularly "enthusiasts" a bit strange. To me they are the perfect thing for an enthusiast to have. You use your electric car for 90% of your driving. This driving is the kind that even enthusiasts don't enjoy, driving to work, doing shopping etc etc. By using your ev for this you save money for your classic Bentley, M5, whatever you want. You then use this car for when you need to go on longer trips than your ev range (not very often for most people) or because you need more space or just driving for fun:) I can definitely see myself doing this when I get a real job.

NIMAN

EV would suit most of us, but we are all afraid to commit to one, because every now and again we need to drive a long distance. mit be once a year or twice, but its enough to stop us buying one.

I heard some stat about 2 chargers in Derry city centre, been there for a year or more. think they have been used 4 times.

Sesshoumaru

For anyone wondering can they make their once or twice per year long trip, this will be the fast chargers along the main motorway network come September this year. They are being 50% funded by the EU, so they have to be in place by September. Many on the map already are.



It's a cross border project so naturally you can use fast chargers in NI.

galwaytt

galwaytt wrote: »

Yes, but there are scenarios such as:

1. Too many people, needing a (fixed no & fixed location) of chargers at the same time.

The ESB said they will bring on more chargers to meet demand.

galwaytt wrote: »

2. Outside of a small minority on a short (sub 2 hr) shopping trip, no-one who works will be able to park their car in (say) a public car park and come back to free it up after a few hours - they'll just leave their car on charge all day. Now, one way of getting around this is to have your 'charging card' actually CHARGE you for parking once the charge level as measured by the station is above xx% of battery storage. This way you WILL come back and free up the charging bay for the next hopeful, to avoid the parking charges. In many respects the EV charger stations are seen as 'free parking' as well. That's ok so long as there's only a couple of hundred cars in the country. Make it 1000's - or 10's of 1000's - and that advantage will quickly disappear.

If there are enough chargers it won't matter.

galwaytt wrote: »

3. Chargers at home are grand for those with houses/driveways/garages. Those in urban centres with communcal parking, apartment blocks etc haven't a hope of getting a home charger installed.

They will use public chargers, but there again there needs to be an E.U directive of some sort.

galwaytt wrote: »

4. Logically, and EXACTLY as we have seen with regard to the low CO2 tax regime, once a critical mass of EV's becomes evident, the loss of revenue to the State in terms of VRT and low motor tax means that they WILL ratchet up taxes to replace 'lost revenue' to existing motor tax levels. Maybe even higher, to claw back just some of the (lack of) revenue from fossil fuels they DON'T use............I wouldn't put it past them. So then what ? a flight back to petrol/diesel ?

I think a lot of revenue will stay in the country because as we produce more of our own renewable energy we can charge ev's keeping money on this Island, importing less oil. I'm a believer in L.F.T.R !!!

galwaytt wrote: »

In some respects, EV's will work for those best, as long as it remains the "best kept secret".

For now many people don't see the benefit because they can afford to pay for petrol and diesel and so there are no incentives, I would like to see a ban of diesel cars in towns and cities, because people now mainly buy diesel to benefit from low road tax and Diesels are toxic and very bad for your health.

There could be parking incentives too like on other countries.

galwaytt wrote: »

I'm a petrol head, and i'd buy one - but seeing as my last bangernomic car cost €150, then EV's capital costs have a long way to go !!

Sure and I love the 2.0L 2000 CRV but I got to tell you I absolutely loved the spin in the Leaf and If I had the cash right now I'd without doubt have an E.V, you got to drive one.

Sesshoumaru

galwaytt wrote: »

Yes, but there are scenarios such as:

1. Too many people, needing a (fixed no & fixed location) of chargers at the same time.
2. Outside of a small minority on a short (sub 2 hr) shopping trip, no-one who works will be able to park their car in (say) a public car park and come back to free it up after a few hours - they'll just leave their car on charge all day. Now, one way of getting around this is to have your 'charging card' actually CHARGE you for parking once the charge level as measured by the station is above xx% of battery storage. This way you WILL come back and free up the charging bay for the next hopeful, to avoid the parking charges. In many respects the EV charger stations are seen as 'free parking' as well. That's ok so long as there's only a couple of hundred cars in the country. Make it 1000's - or 10's of 1000's - and that advantage will quickly disappear.
3. Chargers at home are grand for those with houses/driveways/garages. Those in urban centres with communcal parking, apartment blocks etc haven't a hope of getting a home charger installed.
4. Logically, and EXACTLY as we have seen with regard to the low CO2 tax regime, once a critical mass of EV's becomes evident, the loss of revenue to the State in terms of VRT and low motor tax means that they WILL ratchet up taxes to replace 'lost revenue' to existing motor tax levels. Maybe even higher, to claw back just some of the (lack of) revenue from fossil fuels they DON'T use............I wouldn't put it past them. So then what ? a flight back to petrol/diesel ?


In some respects, EV's will work for those best, as long as it remains the "best kept secret".

I'm a petrol head, and i'd buy one - but seeing as my last bangernomic car cost €150, then EV's capital costs have a long way to go !!

Just on your last point. EV's are more efficient. Revenue gained from petrol/diesel is just taxing an inefficiency. What's wrong with people having more free money for other stuff? How can you be certain the government won't make the money back when people spend their money on other enjoyable activities?

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

EV would suit most of us, but we are all afraid to commit to one, because every now and again we need to drive a long distance. mit be once a year or twice, but its enough to stop us buying one.

I heard some stat about 2 chargers in Derry city centre, been there for a year or more. think they have been used 4 times.

I'd feel the same and it currently a long trip would take planning and I'd be taking the older national routes for longer journeys anyway as where I live to go to the west most of the trip would be on older routes and I'd save a lot of energy anyway.

If I'm on a road trip or whatever then I'm not in a rush so I don't mind taking the older routes as I've not much choice anyway where I live unless I want to go to Dublin or Waterford on motorway, you'd be surprised the ground you could cover at 80-100 kph. and if there are fast chargers along the way even better.

unkel

A very good price. If it suited my needs and if I had the budget to buy a new car, I would be tempted!

That said, they were 30k a year or so ago. Minus a 5k subsidy kindly provided by the tax payer. Where's the next 4k discount coming from? And then there's all the free infrastructure (kindly paid for by the tax payer) and free electricity (kindly paid for by the tax payer)

How cheap do leccy cars need to get before people actually start buying them?

About 1 in a thousand cars sold in the EU is electric at this time and it isn't really picking up.

P.S. The tax payer is sick of paying subsidies to well-off people and the tax payer doesn't believe electric cars contribute to a better / healthier world. He won't be kindly paying much longer!