New Nissan Leaf from €20,990

creedp

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you talking about here of the U.S ? in the U.S the ICE industry has received many billions in subsidies over several decades.

The U.S car makers got huge government subsidies to make bigger SUVs

So at least over in the U.S it will be many many years before e.v's reach the level of subsidies car makers got for ice cars.

Ireland doesn't have a motor industry .. subsidising EVs at present is subsidising Nissan/Renault at a time when the domestic economy is being starved of funds.

In Ireland you have the choice, buy the leaf between 20,990 -27,500 or a Golf TDI or equivalent. You got the choice if you avail of the grant for the EV and EVSE install at your house.

Why do we have to subsidise diesel drivers by paying 710 Euro's a year to tax our 13 year old petrol CRV So diesel car owners can drive the filthiest of cars on our roads and benefit from paying much less road tax ?

Why should the Petrol owner who drives 5-10K miles a year Subsidise the Diesel owner who pollutes much more by driving 20-50K miles a year ? And also benefits from cheaper fuel ?

Why should the Farmer get huge subsidies and assistance when their business is doing poorly while another business owner gets nothing ?

EV's already benefit from low VRT/Tax/no fuel duty on electricity, i.e. they are already the best subsidised class of vehicles on the road. However, some people want to be able to buy them for nothing and insist that the Govt run around after them with a free charging unit. Some even want to the use bus lanes and have free parking. Where will it end. I'd have less of a problem with your suggestion to further crucify the diesel ICE if the EV can actually realistically replace it .. but it can't .. why then are you advocating additional cruxifiction of ice drivers when the alternative is not a reasonably alternative for many.

Once electric cars become cheap 2nd hand I'm talking 3-5 k then the people who struggle to keep petrol in their cars can benefit tremendously from the super cheap running costs of an electric car.

This is my point again .. if they are already so super cheap to run its a no brainer surely. This country has many competing interests for seriously dwindling resources ... I don't see further subsidisation of EVs [Nissan/Renault] high up the priority list.

Zubeneschamali

Deleted User wrote: »

In all fairness to Nissan and Renault, if they were to make a car costing the same as the Tesla they could also make a 250 mile range car.

Yeah, but 250 miles is still crap. I drive a 2.0 turbodiesel MPV with my foot to the floor, average less than 40 mpg and still get over twice that range.

creedp

creedp wrote: »

Ireland doesn't have a motor industry .. subsidising EVs at present is subsidising Nissan/Renault at a time when the domestic economy is being starved of funds.

It hardly matters considering ev sales numbers, and it's only for the first 5000, I would not like to see the grant offered on the likes of the Tesla model S or other Luxury brands. But you could say that the 5k grant would go towards helping us meet our emissions targets.

creedp wrote: »

EV's already benefit from low VRT/Tax/no fuel duty on electricity, i.e. they are already the best subsidised class of vehicles on the road. However, some people want to be able to buy them for nothing and insist that the Govt run around after them with a free charging unit. Some even want to the use bus lanes and have free parking. Where will it end. I'd have less of a problem with your suggestion to further crucify the diesel ICE if the EV can actually realistically replace it .. but it can't ..

I never asked for free charging, or free ev's.

But the ev can meet the needs of many people that otherwise don't need to drive diesels in towns and cities all for the sake of a few quid in road tax over the petrol.

creedp wrote: »

why then are you advocating additional cruxifiction of ice drivers when the alternative is not a reasonably alternative for many.

I'm not, I simply used that as an example of creating incentive for people to change to e.v. A new high tax on (NEW) diesel cars and leaving the old system as it is and then people can still choose to buy an older ice and use it until such time as the e.v range increased to the needs of some. I don't believe diesel drivers should have cheaper fuel than me in my prius a low emissions car, much lower than any diesel, why should I pay more to tax my cleaner car ? and to fuel it ?


Driving in the Bus lane is a good incentive al right, I see why not. I'd hardly complain if I got to fly down the bus lane.

creedp wrote: »

This is my point again .. if they are already so super cheap to run its a no brainer surely. This country has many competing interests for seriously dwindling resources ... I don't see further subsidisation of EVs [Nissan/Renault] high up the priority list.

No it isn't a priority at all for to subsidise unless we much reduce xxxx amount of emissions, or creating cleaner air, that is important. But i don't think we should worry about ev sales yet and the grant is only for the first 5000 cars or so, the free charger 1000 ? so it's nothing to get worked up over.

The E.U subsidise farming in Ireland, why should the Germans/French etc subsidise our farmers and not all business ? so what goes around comes around, but we give very little to the Germans/French in subsidies.

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yeah, but 250 miles is still crap. I drive a 2.0 turbodiesel MPV with my foot to the floor, average less than 40 mpg and still get over twice that range.

Why should I care about that ? really. who cares ?

Max Power1

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yeah, but 250 miles is still crap. I drive a 2.0 turbodiesel MPV with my foot to the floor, average less than 40 mpg and still get over twice that range.

I drive a 3.0 twin turbo diesel and get nearly twice that range on average (450-500 miles/tank @ 30mpg)

Max Power1

Deleted User wrote: »

Why should I care about that ? really. who cares ?

Eh, everyone!

Ever been stuck needing to fill up cos your range is depleted? You'll care then!

Even more so when it takes 8-10 hours to fill up rather than 3 minutes!!

I like to think I can see both sides of this argument, indeed on thread I have said I would own an EV if they were cheaper. But get realistic Mad Lad, EV's cant compete on range yet. It is just not possible. You are having Muhammad Ali battling a toddler.
You need to at least wait till the toddler grows up into mike tyson before letting them fight :P

Max Power1

Max Power1 wrote: »

Eh, everyone!

Ever been stuck needing to fill up cos your range is depleted? You'll care then!

Even more so when it takes 8-10 hours to fill up rather than 3 minutes!!

I like to think I can see both sides of this argument, indeed on thread I have said I would own an EV if they were cheaper. But get realistic Mad Lad, EV's cant compete on range yet. It is just not possible. You are having Muhammad Ali battling a toddler.
You need to at least wait till the toddler grows up into mike tyson before letting them fight :P

Did I ever say they can compete, I don't think all through this thread people listen to me at all.

An ev will meet 95% of the mileage of a vast amount of people, a QC will do for the other 5% , for the rest it will not do.

Now have I ever said anything else all through this thread ?

Max Power1

Deleted User wrote: »

Did I ever say they can compete, I don't think all through this thread people listen to me at all.

An ev will meet 95% of the mileage of a vast amount of people, a QC will do for the other 5% , for the rest it will not do.

Now have I ever said anything else all through this thread ?

Posts from the past two pages only, showing some sort of comparison between range of EV and ICE vehicles.

Deleted User wrote: »

Why should I care about that ? really. who cares ?

wotswattage wrote: »

But the reason they won't get an ev is because of the (irrelevant) range issue. They think an ev cant do the job!




Don't get me wrong, I'm into all of the above, but those reasons are pushing ev's back into a niche...
I think car companies, governments, and consumers need to start thinking in terms of petrol, diesel, electric, rather than i.c. and electric as a separate entity.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes they think it's not up to the job and sure and they don't care if it is or not because they can still afford petrol and diesel so why would they bother to think about it ? sure they think about the range issue, but if they knew about the charging infrastructure already in place, or about fast charging. They might think it will take 10 hours to charge it up. They could probably say, maybe it would work ?

A lot of people have not got a clue about the charging or public chargers or fast charging and find it too complicated to think about it when I try explain.

Most people that know anything about the Nissan Leaf will tell you that it takes 8 hours to charge from empty , but many people were not even aware about it's fast charge capability because they listen to so much uneducated waffle about electric cars and they think all electric cars are the same. And you can be sure they are not aware of the facelift that can charge in half the time or the Zoe 1 hour form any ESB charge point.

Deleted User wrote: »

Sad as it is to say but Americans always get far better deals with cars and electric cars are no different, you can get a new Toyota Rav 4 EV in the U.S 40kw battery good for a real 120-140 miles for around 27,500 a top of the spec facelift Leaf in Ireland.

The Leaf can be leased for less than 200 Euro's PM.

We really get it up the Ass in Europe !!!

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you know that Tesla is now worth more than Fiat ?

Max Power1

Max Power1 wrote: »

Posts from the past two pages only, showing some sort of comparison between range of EV and ICE vehicles.

No quote of comparing range to ice, ?

wotswattage

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yeah, but 250 miles is still crap. I drive a 2.0 turbodiesel MPV with my foot to the floor, average less than 40 mpg and still get over twice that range.

Crap in terms of driving 500 miles in one go, but we must be talking about a tiny percentage of daily usage cars which cover 500 miles between rest periods.

Crap is a relative term and shouldn't be used here...

People need to think more in terms of 'would I be caught out tomorrow if i had an ev??

Whatever about a Leaf lacking range, a 250 mile ev would cover nearly everyone.

wotswattage

wotswattage wrote: »

People need to think more in terms of 'would I be caught out tomorrow if i had an ev??

Soon there will be qc points covering 100% of the motorway netwers, so no you won't get stuck, but it will take you longer to get from Dublin to cork/Galway etc.

It means it's possible to do it for the the people that the 5% of their driving can otherwise not be met without qc.

thecomedian

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yeah, but 250 miles is still crap. I drive a 2.0 turbodiesel MPV with my foot to the floor, average less than 40 mpg and still get over twice that range.

250-300 would be fine, I only get that from my car anyway!

If they bring a car out that does 250-300 at speeds of 100-120kph, then that's a proper car, even if it does cost more

thecomedian

thecomedian wrote: »

250-300 would be fine, I only get that from my car anyway!

If they bring a car out that does 250-300 at speeds of 100-120kph, then that's a proper car, even if it does cost more

The 84 kwh Tesla Model S will do 250 miles average, and that's with mixture of motorway.

yoke

test drove a 2011/2012 nissan leaf today - it drives quite well, but a couple of things put me off actually buying this car - most of which were to do with the sales side of things, rather than the car itself.


1. Hidden costs - the car is advertised at €20,990 but the sales person said that the price to get the car "on the road" would be €22,500. After choosing white paint instead of metallic to knock off about €400, he said that he "wouldn't sell the car without a quick charge option" so including that it would be €22,500 anyway (he never really explained why they advertise it without QC then).

2. If you want this car you pretty much have to buy it new, because the second hand prices seem almost the same as new prices. The dealership had a couple of secondhand 2011/2012 models but the price being asked for was still about €21k. The sales person's logic was "but they were 27k last year". I didn't bother pointing out that "they were new last year".


backgound - primary car was e46 m3 for past 2 yrs, looking to relegate that to weekends as it's ageing and requires more maintenance. Mainly interested in Leaf as a suitable 'commuter car' to slash yearly costs.

BMJD

try another Nissan dealer, some places give you the impression that they don't want to sell you a car :pac:

monkeysnapper

BMJD wrote: »

try another Nissan dealer, some places give you the impression that they don't want to sell you a car :pac:

Yes indeed, I visited my local Nissan dealership and they pretty much knew nothing about car. I knew way more than they did and they told me so themselves. They said the charge to use their own quick charge was 5 euros. I know for a fact they are the only ones in Ireland charging for this process.

I very much got the impression they had no interest in selling me a leaf. Maybe they have no confidence in it and are scared ill be coming crying everyday with problems and questions that they can't answer?

wandatowell

monkeysnapper wrote: »

I very much got the impression they had no interest in selling me a leaf. Maybe they have no confidence in it and are scared ill be coming crying everyday with problems and questions that they can't answer?

To me that's just sheer laziness.

There's ZERO excuse for a salesman not knowing his product. For an ordinary punter walking in off the street and to know more than the sales rep is a farce.

If I was you I would be contacting Nissan Ireland, their head office or whatever and passing on your experience. They would be very interested to hear about it.


Also well done for researching your motor's too.

yoke

yoke wrote: »

test drove a 2011/2012 nissan leaf today - it drives quite well, but a couple of things put me off actually buying this car - most of which were to do with the sales side of things, rather than the car itself.


1. Hidden costs - the car is advertised at €20,990 but the sales person said that the price to get the car "on the road" would be €22,500. After choosing white paint instead of metallic to knock off about €400, he said that he "wouldn't sell the car without a quick charge option" so including that it would be €22,500 anyway (he never really explained why they advertise it without QC then).

2. If you want this car you pretty much have to buy it new, because the second hand prices seem almost the same as new prices. The dealership had a couple of secondhand 2011/2012 models but the price being asked for was still about €21k. The sales person's logic was "but they were 27k last year". I didn't bother pointing out that "they were new last year".


backgound - primary car was e46 m3 for past 2 yrs, looking to relegate that to weekends as it's ageing and requires more maintenance. Mainly interested in Leaf as a suitable 'commuter car' to slash yearly costs.

Dealers should be more with it if they intend to sell stock.

Typical Irish dealers would rather let the car rot than sell them on, a car is only worth 20k if people are willing to buy them at that price or even willing to buy them at all.

They were selling the 2012's in the U.K a few months ago for as little as 16K Euro's to get rid of stock for the facelift model, mostly dealer demos with 5-6k miles a pure steal.

But no in Ireland they would rather let them rot.

I'd go to the U.K and buy one as they are so highly speced cars compared to the 2013's.

I test drove the Leaf around last xmas and the sales man in Windsor Belgard hadn't a clue about the facelift coming out, and he didn't know much about the car at all.

How far is your commute and would you ask your boss to install a charge point at least to entertain the idea ?

When I asked the previous company I worked ( a major multinnational ) they said they will when more people get electric cars ??? they had not got a clue either.

They thought they had to install a fast charger and I was trying to explain that all I need is a 13 amp charger over the course of a 8 hr work day. And that's what everyone else would need too.

I tried to explain that they don't need a single fast charger for multiple cars.

I also tried to explain that there was a chap with a leaf but he didn't need to charge because he lived close enough, so they really only need to install the chargers for people like me who need to charge and not everyone .

Oh they knew best of course. I was completely amazed about how dumb they actually were.

wandatowell

wandatowell wrote: »

If I was you I would be contacting Nissan Ireland, their head office or whatever and passing on your experience. They would be very interested to hear about it.

I seriously doubt they care less.

wandatowell

Deleted User wrote: »

I seriously doubt they care less.

You are probably right but I'd like to find.

Typical Irish sales rep imo

wandatowell

wandatowell wrote: »

You are probably right but if I was in your shoes I'd like to find.

Yeah maybe, but all you get them is attitude and they get all defensive like you're personally attacking them, or the patronising tone.

If you told dealers or Nissan Ireland that the Leaf sells better in the U.K at the price they sell it there they would tell you to hop on a boat and go get it !

I mean who in their right mind would try sell a 2nd hand car at close to the price of a newer model ? yep you guessed it, Irish stealers.

Sure as a last resort I'd ring up a few dealers and say I got cast today 16 grand, they would say on your bike.

BTW, I saw on Autotrader.co.uk last week a 2012 for 16K Euro's if anyone was interested.

September1

I drive LEAF now for two years, so let me give my humble opinion on couple issues raised here.

You can go beyond advertised NEDC range, so it should be possible to drive Galway Dublin without charging, but not practical. It is faster to travel with frequent charging.

I never got out of electricity in middle of nowhere with no charger next to me. Somehow it does not happen.

1gen LEAF is not so good in cold weather, if you want to take no compromise in heating then range is near half. Maybe 2nd gen fixes it...

September1

September1 wrote: »

1gen LEAF is not so good in cold weather, if you want to take no compromise in heating then range is near half. Maybe 2nd gen fixes it...

The heater is part of it but the unheated battery is another.

For people unaware, lithium batteries should be charged at 15-20 degrees C for optimum range. Because the internal resistance gets higher the colder the battery gets.

But did you tell me September1 that fast charging can solve that problem to some degree because fast charging warms the battery ?

Fast charging a cold battery shouldn't be a problem but daily ?

September1

Any charging warms batteries, also driving warms them to lesser extent. However heating can draw easily power at 3kW

So if you were to preheat and set the temp to a reasonable 20 deg C, how much of the time might it pull 3kw ? that's a lot of juice.

If it was to pull 3kw continuously that would be at least 9 miles off the range in an hours driving.

But I do still think with work charging it's still plenty for most commutes, or those who drive to the Luas.

creedp

[QUOTE=Deleted User;85386029It hardly matters considering ev sales numbers, and it's only for the first 5000, I would not like to see the grant offered on the likes of the Tesla model S or other Luxury brands. But you could say that the 5k grant would go towards helping us meet our emissions targets.

It doesn't matter that the grant is only for the 1st 5,000 - that argument is also used by politicians as an excuse for not cutting their pay/allowances/expenses regime .. sure there's only a few of us and cutting us won't impact on the deficit ... instead lets crucify the majority ..

As for it helping out emissions targets? How much will our emissions be reduced by having 5,000 ev's of the road?

I'm not, I simply used that as an example of creating incentive for people to change to e.v. A new high tax on (NEW) diesel cars and leaving the old system as it is and then people can still choose to buy an older ice and use it until such time as the e.v range increased to the needs of some. I don't believe diesel drivers should have cheaper fuel than me in my prius a low emissions car, much lower than any diesel, why should I pay more to tax my cleaner car ? and to fuel it ?

So you're going to sacrifice the high mileage diesel driver who is already paying full price plus VRT, road tax and extortinalte fuel duty so you can encourage a few people to buy EV's that don't suit many drivers yet? I know you think that a €6k grant to buy a new car is pocket change but at what point would you consider that EVs are appropriately subsidised?

creedp

creedp wrote: »

So you're going to sacrifice the high mileage diesel driver who is already paying full price plus VRT, road tax and extortinalte fuel duty so you can encourage a few people to buy EV's that don't suit many drivers yet? I know you think that a €6k grant to buy a new car is pocket change but at what point would you consider that EVs are appropriately subsidised?

So now it's a 6k grant ?

We subsidise wind energy companies who invest in wind farms and turn around and charge us a fortune for electricity and have the cheek to offer 18,500 a year to land owners in the Midlands per turbine they we have to subsidise ! that's costing far far more ! meanwhile you or I get nothing for the installation of wind or solar pv.

I would prefer to see all new diesel cars banned, so leave the fuel alone, fine.
I would rather see LPG cars that are far cleaner than Diesel. And in most cases they would be cheaper to run.

Most of the electricity I think at this stage is generated by gas, ? mixture of wind. I think my leccy is more gas so it's not coming form moneypoint that's for sure.

EV's will also make use of the fuel wasted at night to keep at operating temperature when demand is low greatly improving efficiency and in town there are 0 emissions.

If the Government want x amount of electric cars on the roads by xxxx then they need to create incentives for to buy them as currently to most people the ice cars is affordable or within their budget and while range is a part of it I still don't think it would matter to people who think the ice does the job just fine.

As long as the ICE and fuel is affordable there are no incentives to change to electric for most people.

peter_dublin

Why do people here seem to think companies are going to be willing to allow everyone to charge their cars at work. I work for a large multinational and we forcefullly shutdown users laptops at a certain time of night to save power, this is globaly and it saves tens of millions doing so the work force is so large, security unplug phone chargers on their rounds and only certified electrical devices are allowed for insurance and safety reasons.

Those who do get fuel cards which is only a few have to pay the BIK, I seriously doubt that they are going to install 600+ chargers and hand out free electricity to all, that sort of draw would need an infrastrucutre upgrade alone I would imagine.

No matter how much some would like it if I owned a company I would not be handing out say 20kw of power to each employee a day just because thay choose to buy and EV and they choose to live so far from work that they can't make it on a return trip just as I decided to live in apartment close to work when I could have bought a house 50km further away.

peter_dublin

peter_dublin wrote: »

Why do people here seem to think companies are going to be willing to allow everyone to charge their cars at work.

Who said for everyone ? If you had actually read the thread from the beginning you would have heard me say many times that if chargers were installed for those who need to charge, i.e the longer distance commuter or the apartment owner etc,, that would greatly cut down on the installation cost of chargers.

It needs to be sorted that Apartment owners etc can install chargers.

This needs Government/E.U support and intervention because without it it won't happen.

peter_dublin wrote: »

I seriously doubt that they are going to install 600+ chargers and hand out free electricity to all, that sort of draw would need an infrastrucutre upgrade alone I would imagine.

Nobody said the electricity should be free but there is no reason the charge can't go on to the users electricity bill and the company not get billed at all.

peter_dublin wrote: »

No matter how much some would like it if I owned a company I would not be handing out say 20kw of power to each employee a day just because thay choose to buy and EV and they choose to live so far from work that they can't make it on a return trip just as I decided to live in apartment close to work when I could have bought a house 50km further away.

I'm delighted you were in the position to be able to buy an apartment that's worth half it is now to live close to work ! I could go on a rant on that one, but I won't.

And no one is asking any company to hand out any kw !

peter_dublin

Deleted User wrote: »

Who said for everyone ? If you had actually read the thread from the beginning you would have heard me say many times that if chargers were installed for those who need to charge, i.e the longer distance commuter or the apartment owner etc,, that would greatly cut down on the installation cost of chargers.

It needs to be sorted that Apartment owners etc can install chargers.

This needs Government/E.U support and intervention because without it it won't happen.



Nobody said the electricity should be free but there is no reason the charge can't go on to the users electricity bill and the company not get billed at all.


I'm delighted you were in the position to be able to buy an apartment that's worth half it is now to live close to work ! I could go on a rant on that one, but I won't.

And no one is asking any company to hand out any kw !

Firstly I don't that what your point about my purchasing of an apartment and its current value is, it is qiuite frankly none of your business and I don't see how your point even applies bar a sad attempt to make it personal. You skipped over how I purchased it based on its distance to work and other factors such as the time, distance and cost of getting to work versus the house I could have purchased a further 50km away.

Why should apartment owners have chargers, just as they can't have satellite dishes they knew of the limitations before they purchased the units just as I was.

So your not asking them to make available free electricity just the entire infrastructure to charge and bill hundreds of cars for employees on an ongoing basis who "need" them again due to their "own" personal choices which they made on where to live in relation to employment and the car they drive.

I converted my Honda CRV to LPG, there is only one station to fuel up near me, should I ask my employer to invest in an infrastruture to fuel it, no because that would be stupid as it was my choice to choose car which limited fuel availability just as its stupid to purchase a car with limited range based on your needs and then expect your employer to provide an additional infrastructure because you choose a car with a fuel type that doesn't suit your needs.

100 or 600 cars it doesn't matter, the cost of the infrastruture goes beyond just the physical cables and chargers required, there is administrative costs to the organisation in the form of additional workloads for several departments etc.