New Nissan Leaf from €20,990

creedp

Deleted User wrote: »

So now it's a 6k grant ?

No it isn't a priority at all for to subsidise unless we much reduce xxxx amount of emissions, or creating cleaner air, that is important. But i don't think we should worry about ev sales yet and the grant is only for the first 5000 cars or so, the free charger 1000 ? so it's nothing to get worked up over.

We subsidise wind energy companies who invest in wind farms and turn around and charge us a fortune for electricity and have the cheek to offer 18,500 a year to land owners in the Midlands per turbine they we have to subsidise ! that's costing far far more ! meanwhile you or I get nothing for the installation of wind or solar pv.

You can argue whether this is an appropriate policy or not .. the the reason wind turbines are grant aided is to reduce our dependance on fossil fuels and reduce our CO2 emissions .. this is one of the reason it is more acceptable for EV drivers to use duty free electricity to fuel their vehicles, i.e. electricity will be considered a clean(er)/renewable source of energy .. no need for further subsidisation of the end user especially when it comes to fueling cars.

As long as the ICE and fuel is affordable there are no incentives to change to electric for most people.

So you expect people who drive cars/vehicles that do not have a EV equivalent to pay up so you and people for whom EVs suit their needs can drive even cheaper cars. Fair enough .. you're entiteld to your opinion.

Max Power1

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody said the electricity should be free but there is no reason the charge can't go on to the users electricity bill and the company not get billed at all.

Couldnt they use the card system currently in use on the echargers in town?

So the EV driver swipes a card and it logs in and uses their electricity account info from home, even if it is at the employer's location?

If that was possible and incentivised I think ( on the proviso that EVs came down in price) that the EV uptake would be a lot better. There are few people that would need full range to drive to work.

peter_dublin

Max Power1 wrote: »

Couldnt they use the card system currently in use on the echargers in town?

So the EV driver swipes a card and it logs in and uses their electricity account info from home, even if it is at the employer's location?

If that was possible and incentivised I think ( on the proviso that EVs came down in price) that the EV uptake would be a lot better. There are few people that would need full range to drive to work.

Yes, that is possible but you are back to the ESB charging your car and not your employer which is not what MAD LAD is calling for, what you describe is the ESB chargers in a companies car park seperate to the companies own power systems, no issue there but the ESB is not likely to roll that out and a company is not likely to invest the in it either given the drive is towards the reduction of power usage in companies, even with ESB providing the charging if its liked into the companies supply rather than the ESB directly there is still overheads and other costs to them bar the cost of just the power used.

For example in our apartment complex if the ESB offered to come in and install 11 chargers in the 11 parking places directly off the grid free of charge using their billing system I would have no issue, we have sub station of site etc. The management company doesn't have an ESB Supply as the lighting etc is provided by the council as its an older development. Now if the ESB are not going to provide power then what are the options, the Management Company gets a large supply put in, the cost of works, 11 chargers and are charged for the power and then using the ESB tag try and recoup the costs from unit owners as it is the Management Companies supply after all or do ESB bill owers directly. Its very unclear. The alternative is a feed from each units supply to a parking spot and charger. Again no chance of this.

I find it laughable in this country if you heat your house with a Storage heater your can only get a BER of E due to the 30% power loss accross the grid but if your buy an EV you get grants etc.

September1

peter_dublin wrote: »

I find it laughable in this country if you heat your house with a Storage heater your can only get a BER of E due to the 30% power loss accross the grid but if your buy an EV you get grants etc.

That is one thing that makes sense, to create electricity you have to waste some thermal energy, while creating thermal energy by itself is extremely efficient. To get mechanical energy (to move car) you also need to waste thermal energy, hence free heating in all ICE. In general converting electricity to thermal is wasteful process.

As nearly comments are directed at me I'll try respond but not to all individually unless the post is short. I'll be here forever so I'm not deliberately ignoring comments.


There is no reason your ESB public charger swipe card can't be used for work or Apartment chargers.

There is no reason there can't be charged a monthly rental to cover the cost of installation and upkeep of these chargers also.

You would simply ring up your electric company and tell them you got an e.v and you want a work charger installed, they will then call up the contractor and your electric company charge you the rental and bill you for electricity used at peak rate, or maybe a discount ( jesus anti ev people at least give me a discount ) feck sake, I'm trying my best here. :-)

You change jobs another ev owner can use the charge point.

You call up the management agency of your apartment you want a charge point, they give you written permission and you call up your electric company.

But there needs to be government legislation that prevents companies or management companies from not allowing chargers.

Chargers in apartments will be mainly in carparks and won't stick out like satellite dishes.

This isn't going to happen over night so it would be much easier to implement.

Those who must park on street are in a difficult situation but perhaps a fast charge might do them 2-3 days use ? or the work charger.

It also shouldn't be difficult to do, but I believe there would be opposition just for the sake of it with reasons why it can't be done.

If you look for many ways something shouldn't be done then nothing will be done.

Zubeneschamali

Deleted User wrote: »

You would simply ring up your electric company and tell them you got an e.v and you want a work charger installed.

Who will pay the electric company to carry out this work?

Soarer

I hate the way every thread about EVs turn into the same arguments over and over again.

The thread was started to let people know the price of the new Leaf. Why does it have to descend into ICE Vs EV like every other thread?

MuppetCheck

Can Mad_Lad have his own forum?

Soarer

Fair play on the ciggies Muppet. Great going.

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Who will pay the electric company to carry out this work?

The Government can pay this but they get it back.

Other than that it could be incorporated into the cost of an ev or reduce the grant from 5k to 3k, but then what's the point of the rental ? Maybe for extra unforced civil works ? Upkeep ?

MuppetCheck

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Can Mad_Lad have his own forum?

Or just an ev section on boards would be nice and ban the ev haters

166man

Deleted User wrote: »

Or just an ev section on boards would be nice and ban the ev haters

Jesus that would be a fair wild bunch alright...

ba_barabus

166man wrote: »

Jesus that would be a fairly charged up bunch alright...

EFA

ba_barabus

ba_barabus wrote: »

EFA

EFA ?

ba_barabus

Deleted User wrote: »

EFA ?

Edited for accuracy

Re-read the quote

Oh yeah I see it now,

yoke

How far is your commute and would you ask your boss to install a charge point at least to entertain the idea ?

Hi Mad_Lad,

My commute is about 25km each way, and I wouldn't be driving more than 100km in total on most days.

Re boss installing a charge point... I wouldn't even bother asking to be honest, as it's so unlikely to happen right now.
Due to the ridiculous shortage of parking spaces in the business park we are based in, the company has had to rent space for an "overflow carpark" from another company located nearby, and I end up having to park there most days.

BTW, I saw on Autotrader.co.uk last week a 2012 for 16K Euro's if anyone was interested.

I'd be interested in this - do you know if there is any import duty/VAT/other fee that would need to be paid on a second-hand EV from the UK if you want to register it in ireland?

I had asked the nissan dealer how much a standard charge point costs - he said about €800 for one that fits a nissan leaf, and about €200 labour cost for an electrician to install it.

Cheers,
Sam

yoke

yoke wrote: »

Hi Mad_Lad,

My commute is about 25km each way, and I wouldn't be driving more than 100km in total on most days.

You're sorted so at that mileage, you would probably even get away with preheating in winter after work, so you'll get into a nice warm car.

yoke wrote: »

Re boss installing a charge point... I wouldn't even bother asking to be honest, as it's so unlikely to happen right now.
Due to the ridiculous shortage of parking spaces in the business park we are based in, the company has had to rent space for an "overflow carpark" from another company located nearby, and I end up having to park there most days.

At the mileage you'll be doing I wouldn't worry about it.

yoke wrote: »

I'd be interested in this - do you know if there is any import duty/VAT/other fee that would need to be paid on a second-hand EV from the UK if you want to register it in ireland?

There is nothing to pay bringing in an E.V from the U.K provided it's over 6 months and I think, (don't quote me on this ) 6,000 miles on the clock, I know you will find it on the revenue site somewhere.

yoke wrote: »

I had asked the nissan dealer how much a standard charge point costs - he said about €800 for one that fits a nissan leaf, and about €200 labour cost for an electrician to install it.

[/QUOTE]

Sounds about right to me, just make sure the cable itself is rated for 32 amps should you ever get an e.v that charges at 6kw. You would have to replace the rcd at the consumer unit and the charger on the wall, or just get one that will charge at 32 amps. Will cost more.

Just remember to charge to 80%, (there is an option for this in the timer setting,) and not let it run below 30% ish and you should get many years out of the leaf, and watch the fast charging, don't do it if the battery is very warm. If you need all the range then use it , but when you don't need it don't use all the battery.

You should be able to do a fair few long journeys using the qc points being installed for the occasional long trip.

I think that while the heat pump might be better, I have no data yet as to how efficient it is over the old heater. But it won't matter at your mileage.

Max Power1

Deleted User wrote: »

Or just an ev section on boards would be nice and ban the ev haters

Nooo!
Sure we'd lose the banter between the fossil fueled EV's and the Dinosaur powered ICEs!

I do think that these kind of threads are good for the forum, I know I have changed my attitude somewhat to EV's since reading some of Mad_Lad's posts. (I mean, once you filter out the fanboi-ism there are some interesting facts there :P )

Max Power1

Max Power1 wrote: »

Nooo!
Sure we'd lose the banter between the fossil fueled EV's and the Dinosaur powered ICEs!

I do think that these kind of threads are good for the forum, I know I have changed my attitude somewhat to EV's since reading some of Mad_Lad's posts. (I mean, once you filter out the fanboi-ism there are some interesting facts there :P )

Ah I'll convert yez yet lads, don't worry !

Fossil fuelled ev's, haha I like that one !

galwaytt

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah I'll convert yez yet lads, don't worry !

Fossil fuelled ev's, haha I like that one !

...reminds me of a very, very old Hal Roche joke..........(from 30 years back, so forgive if not word-perfect.....)

".....engineers have perfected the electric car - it only cost £2 to travel from Galway to Dublin..............



........but it cost £6000 for the flex !!

Matt Simis

Max Power1 wrote: »

I do think that these kind of threads are good for the forum, I know I have changed my attitude somewhat to EV's since reading some of Mad_Lad's posts. (I mean, once you filter out the fanboi-ism there are some interesting facts there :P )

Here is a random fact to ponder, as far back as the turn of the century when the first Tanks were being made (aka "Landships" back then), many of them used Petro or Diesel-Electric powertrains. This continues to this day in various models (though not all by any means, the M1 Abrams until recently used a Turbine). Here is the spec on a Wehrmacht "Ferdinand", designed and built by that car company, Porsche AG.

The two Porsche air cooled engines in each vehicle were replaced by two 300 PS (296 hp; 221 kW) Maybach HL 120 TRM engines. The engines drove electric generators, which in turn powered electric motors connected to the rear sprockets. The electric motors also acted as the vehicle's steering unit. This "petrol-electrical" drive delivered 0.11 km/l off road and 0.15 km/l on road at a maximum speed of 10 km/h off road and 30 km/h on road. Besides the high fuel consumption and the poor performance the drive system was also maintenance-intensive; the sprockets needed to be changed every 500 km. Porsche had experience of this form of petrol-electric transmission extending back to 1901, when he designed a car that used it.

None of them used batteries for energy storage as the problems we face today (time to charge, infrastructure, degraded performance over time, weight of batteries, battery management system problems and sheer cost of batteries) were of course similar but worse in the 1940s. What's remained consistent over time is nothing has trumped "mineral" fuels as the most suitable fuel source.. and given so called mineral fuels are nature and solar power refined and concentrated over millennia, it shouldnt be surprising that man has failed to whip out something better in a mere 150years.

galwaytt

galwaytt wrote: »

".....engineers have perfected the electric car - it only cost £2 to travel from Galway to Dublin..............



........but it cost £6000 for the flex !!

Matt Simis

Matt Simis wrote: »

What's remained consistent over time is nothing has trumped "mineral" fuels as the most suitable fuel source.. and given so called mineral fuels are nature and solar power refined and concentrated over millennia, it shouldnt be surprising that man has failed to whip out something better in a mere 150years.

That's because oil has been dirt cheap for many years and fuel still is cheap today, except in Europe where we pay probably the highest taxes on fuel in the world.

The rest of the world has no incentive to use or search for another fuel source. Except for some renewable and Nuclear.

Thorium L.F.T.R could be the next source of energy that will power the next 100+ years. And some countries will have one in the next 2 years or so, India and maybe China. The U.K are also considering it. Ireland will be at the mercy of foreign energy companies for many years as the Government try fool us into thinking that wind will power us into the future, if that was so then why are the U.K planning 20 more Nuclear stations ? because they know that wind power will never meet their demand for electricity, into the future. But Ireland loves the seen to be green image.

So that's electricity, now imagine if you replaced transport with electricity and to make hydrogen ? imagine your total electricity needs then ? That's why we need to start the debate over Nuclear now, but people scared of Nuclear will try force down our throats that L.F.T.R is also dangerous and keep us in the dark ages, we have no leadership in Ireland who will do what needs to be done for the best interests of Ireland for the future.

In relation to batteries, who knows what would have happened electric cars if GM didn't sell the NiMh battery patents to Chevron Texaco an oil company ?

Texaco then turned around and told GM that you can't have the battery for your electric car and then told Toyota no, you can't use our battery for a full electric, but they did allow Toyota, Honda etc to use a tiny battery for Hybrids such as the Prius.

Who knows what what battery revolution would have been sparked off by competition ?

After GM scrapped the EV 1 who had a real range of around 100 odd miles the whole world thought that that was it and nobody bothered to invest or continue research into batteries or electric cars.

Today this has changed greatly and there is a race for better batteries and Lithium Air is the most promising of all the technologies so far, when we'll actually have it who knows ? but in the meantime current battery tech will improve.

Will the Leaf MK II have more range ? yes it sure will but it won't be 200 miles perhaps 100-110 miles max real range and not be effected in the cold and it will most likely be cheaper. The battery would probably be lighter. It should also have faster charging as Nissan have been testing 10 min charging the last 2 years or so.

100-110 real miles would really be a game changer, it would open up electric cars to a lot more people.

Even today the Leaf can do 110+ miles easily with a QC or Luas/public chargers etc it won't suit everyone but at least the option is there for those who it would be suitable for.

Zoe, a car ahead of it's time with the most advanced charger of any ev in the world will at most take less than an hour form all ESB non fast QC points, and less than 30 mins for an 80% charge at an a/c QC point. And limited at home by your mains supply !

BailMeOut

what happens if battery runs out of charge in mid journey? Is there a way to 'jump' an electric car from another normal car to charge batteries enough to get you to a charge point or do you need to call a tow truck?

BailMeOut

BailMeOut wrote: »

what happens if battery runs out of charge in mid journey? Is there a way to 'jump' an electric car from another normal car to charge batteries enough to get you to a charge point or do you need to call a tow truck?

You can't jump a 400 volt battery from a 12v car battery if that's what you mean ? :eek::eek:

You call the AA and they can transport or toe you.

BailMeOut

Deleted User wrote: »

You can't jump a 400 volt battery from a 12v car battery if that's what you mean ? :eek::eek:

You call the AA and they can transport or toe you.

So no way to invert from a 12v DC to 220 VAC and plug electric car in and charge normally at side of road?

BailMeOut

BailMeOut wrote: »

So no way to invert from a 12v DC to 220 VAC and plug electric car in and charge normally at side of road?

Even is you could you'd need a fair few car batteries.

Think about it.

12 V 40 amp hour car battery has 480 watt hrs of energy or much less because lead acid batteries really only give half their rated capacity.

The average consumption of the Leaf is 3.5 kwh per mile.

That = 300 amp hrs @12 volts or 7.5x 12 volt car batteries @40 amp hr.

Though you would probably need much more because lead acid batteries are dirt and only really give half or so of their usable capacity.

So that's 7.5 car batteries for 1 mile of range. That's excluding losses in the inverter.

The Leaf has 24 kwh battery with 21 usable, so 3.5 kwh average consumption x 21 = 73.5 miles on a new battery.

at 3.5 kw for the leaf MK 1 you'd pull 291.66 amps @ 12V -220 volts

the Leaf MK 1.5 6.5kw charger would pull 541.66 amps to convert to 220 volts.

So you'd need at least 600 amp hr worth of 12 v car batteries that's 7.2 kwh of battery or 15 car batteries.

The reason is lead acid batteries are good for cranking or a few hundred amps peak but for continuous use like charging you's need to pull no more than 1C that's capacity of the battery in ah x1 so 600 amp h batteries is 600 amp draw.

And that's 2 miles of range, so you see how bad lead acid batteries are ?

Max Power1

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah I'll convert yez yet lads, don't worry !

Fossil fuelled ev's, haha I like that one !

Sure where do you think electricity comes from!
Bar a minority from renewables the vast majority is from fossil fuels!