New Nissan Leaf from €20,990

celtic_oz

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are we talking about C02 ? what about other emissions. Why is C02 seen as a pollutant, it isn't.

I think Obama said it best

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB9--MF0tx0

I can't pay it now but I but it must be a powerful speech about "climate change"? even if anthropogenic climate change were real why should we ignore the harmful emissions ?

I suppose the research into clean technology will have a positive outcome to reduce harmful emissions and if stopping anthropogenic warming is a driver of that, then I suppose something good can come of it.

This thread has come a very long way off topic !

stimpson

Deleted User wrote: »

I was talking about L.F.T.R ? India are heavily involved in Research into L.F.T.R.

I wonder why I can't find any reliable sources to back that up. I'm sure you can provide some.

Again another very intelligent contribution to the Thread, thank you.

May I politely ask you to take your attitude and trolling to another forum ?

This is a discussion forum. Be prepared to back up your arguments with more than accusations of trolling.

stimpson

stimpson wrote: »

I wonder why I can't find any reliable sources to back that up. I'm sure you can provide some.

This is a discussion forum. Be prepared to back up your arguments with more than accusations of trolling.

You are a troll. And I don't like your attitude.

So go troll somewhere else.

If you can't find reliable sources then you are not looking in the right places.

stimpson

Deleted User wrote: »

You are a troll. And I don't like your attitude.

So go troll somewhere else.

If you can't find reliable sources then you are not looking in the right places.

You want me to find sources to back up your points?

Oafley Jones

Matt Simis wrote: »

Umm did you read the article? Its complete fluff and fails, fairly instantly due to a massive fudging of the numbers (and not even the mysterious omission of all other pollutants other than CO2) as it just takes the whole Gasoline Barrel usage and looks at the CO2 in the barrel and spits out a result, when it should be looking at the vehicle, miles travelled and CO2 produced per mile (as a V8 truck made in the 80s and a 1.0 Ford Mondeo EcoFlex are miles apart in consumption).

A more accurate "Gasoline" CO2 assessment, using EPA figures.
The EPA dont do it this way (obviously) and have produced this formula:


193million cars/light trucks at average 4.8metric tons CO2 per year is 926 million metric tons CO2 for all passenger vehicles using gasoline in the US, at a crappy 21mpg and 11.4k miles covered, per year.

However comparing brand new eco focused EVs to an aging and not eco focused at all US fleet is purposely misleading, as if the average MPG was 35 (US Gallons) then the figure is much lower, each of those 35mpg cars puts out 2.92 metric tons CO2 a year and if all vehicles achieved this, thats a total of 565million tons of CO2.

Logically if people were faced with EV level range restrictions, they would plan journeys better and take less frivolous trips, so if we apply a little of this frugality and slightly reduced that 11,493 miles down to 9000 miles, our total Gasoline CO2 output comes down to (2.29 * 193mil) 442million metric tons a year.. which, shock horror, is less CO2 than powering 193million Electric Cars using Coal/peat fossil fuel power plants.



The EV comparison:
Switching all 193 million vehicles to EVs (as impractical as that might be):

Average US Coal Power plant produces 1kg of CO2 per kWh produced
193million US cars replaced with "average" 25kWh EVs at 100 full charges a year = 482 billion kWh requirement.

Thats 482billion kg of CO2 or 482 million metric tons of CO2 per year on top of what the plants already produce, assuming they can infact increase production to this level and dont drop efficiency levels at this new demand.



TLDR: A brand new all EV fleet (193million cars and light trucks) in the US offers better CO2 emissions than their aged fleet of uneconomical trucks and large engined cars but unlikely to be better than even a "current" gen refresh (to more efficient ICE modesl) of their fleet. Nuclear on the other hand completely eradicates this problem, but thats an entirely different issue.

Curious as to how the manufacture of EV compare to ICE vehicles in terms of carbon footprint. Any ideas?

Friend of mine was relaying the difficulty (ignoring cost) in rolling out charging stations throughout Cork city. Basically the up shot is that you can expect a huge amount of resistance to them, someone invariably has a claim on the spot and you can almost certainly expect legal action. This is coming from someone who's an engineer, works in renewal energy, develops policy and has driven (and appraised) EV for over 12 months.

Matt Simis

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Curious as to how the manufacture of EV compare to ICE vehicles in terms of carbon footprint. Any ideas?

You could say that 80% of the vehicle chassis is the same with the remainder being Motor, Charging system and Batteries. Of them, only the batteries pose a problem.. which incidentally has come to light in a few recent report, specifically the EPAs surprisingly "down on Li-Ion" investigation:
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/06/02/epa-looks-into-negative-environmental-health-effects-of-li-ion/

Among the many things that may alarm the smug, the report points out issues such as the use of nickel and cobalt in lithium-ion battery cathodes. Those exposed to the production of those materials have a higher risk for respiratory and pulmonary problems, while the production of such materials can hasten global warming.

Additionally, recharging plug-ins in the US Midwest and South is a lot less environmentally friendly than doing the same the West or New England because of the prevalence of coal-fired plants as an electricity source in the former two regions, according to the study, which also used information from the Department of Energy's Argonne National Lab, Arizona State University, and the Rochester Institute of Technology

Quite the U-Turn from the EV euphoria of 2009.

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are we talking about C02 ? what about other emissions. Why is C02 seen as a pollutant, it isn't.

"We" are talking about CO2 as its the basis of the VRT exemption and the colossal Motor tax break that EVs unfairly (in the realm of a free and open market, this is significant government meddling and therefore not free and open) enjoy.

While I agree CO2 is a BS emission to be worried about, the Green agenda successfully lobbied otherwise on a global level, the same agenda that pushes EVs among other things. Everytime you support the reduced cost of EVs and low running costs, you are supporting CO2 based taxation. Imagine if petrol was 80c a litre cheaper, VRT was EUR50 admin on all vehicles and motor tax was based 75% cheaper and based on weight (and therefore road wear)? Thats the world they lives behind our crippling taxation and EV tax-crutches.

Max Power1

Deleted User wrote: »

You are a troll. And I don't like your attitude.

So go troll somewhere else.

If you can't find reliable sources then you are not looking in the right places.

So he is a troll, because he asked you for sources and you dont provide any?

I think you are the one who should troll elsewhere. I think you are more of a fanboy for evs than even I am for bmw diesels.

Sesshoumaru

How's the discussion on the price of the new Nissan Leaf going? :pac:

Since this thread has almost immediately turned into a 'discuss anything you like about EV's' thread, I'll just talk about my week of driving pleasure last week. We got a good Groupon deal on 7 nights in a hotel in Wexford by the sea a few months ago. Lucky us we booked it months ago for last week. What a great week to holiday at home! Just to keep it EV related, this was the route:

http://goo.gl/maps/aZCZC

For the trip we had two adults and 3 kids (maximum age 6 years old, so boosters/seats for all). Our son is only 7 months old, so that meant pram and plenty of supplies for him and the other kids. The fuel gauge has 12 bars, it took 10 of those 12 to make that journey.



The place we stayed in was Gorey, but we had no trouble travelling around Wexford. Also paid a visit to Kilmore Quay one day, very nice spot and great beach for kids! There are 4 FCP's in Wexford now with 24 hour access, including one in Gorey where we were staying. One near Kilmore Quay as well was quite handy. Most days we charged for 10 minutes which in current temperatures was enough to get to 50%. If I needed more in a day I usually just called in for another 10 minute charge before heading back to the hotel. total distance covered was 726 kilometers.



While it wasn't exactly a trip around the continent, I did find the car completely up to this admittedly moderate task and just generally it was really nice to drive around the small roads in Wexford in sunny weather with the windows down

I wasn't the only Leaf owner enjoying the Irish sunshine in Wexford that week either. This was Gorey Maxol one of the days

monkeysnapper

Does anyone have Irish sales for the leaf since its launch?

Matt Simis

monkeysnapper wrote: »

Does anyone have Irish sales for the leaf since its launch?

Measured in the hundreds when it was meant to be high thousands:
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/time-to-pull-the-plug-on-electric-cars-1.553827

It remains to be seen if the big price slashes will help, though pricing is only a contributory factor.


Related news, I was going to check the numbers on charging points vs EV's in Ireland, but someone already did it:
http://www.thejournal.ie/electric-cars-charge-points-970659-Jun2013/

THERE ARE CURRENTLY five publicly accessible charge points for every electric vehicle in Ireland, according to new figures released by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.
In response to a parliamentary question, Minister Pat Rabbitte said that there is a total of 259 electric vehicles in Ireland. Last year, there were 23 of these vehicles registered, up from just two back in 2010.

Well that was well planned..

Soarer

When did global warming become climate change?

Max Power1

Is this thread still going?

I swear some of us could argue our way out of a black hole!

Oafley Jones

Matt Simis wrote: »

Related news, I was going to check the numbers on charging points vs EV's in Ireland, but someone already did it:
http://www.thejournal.ie/electric-cars-charge-points-970659-Jun2013/


Well that was well planned..

I wonder how many are privately owned.

@60-64

Yes you read that right. And 1600 miles.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201308198375125/sort/default/usedcars/model/leaf/make/nissan/onesearchad/used/onesearchad/nearlynew/onesearchad/new/quicksearch/true/radius/1501/postcode/bs324nf/page/1/advert-type/standard-listing?logcode=ucnnp

That's some bargain. If I only had the cash now ! it's practically brand new !

If I was doing a Dublin commute again it would pay back in 3.5 years over the Prius @60-64 mpg and including the 5k for the sale of the Prius , not many cars can claim that. I'd have to have a charger or fast charger on route though.

You have to expect a minimum of 60-70 miles in very cold weather @ 60 mph 75-84 in summer. Still that's 120 miles a day if you can charge up at your destination, Luas, quick charger etc.

Still a seriously good car for that money !

The Chevy Spark EV has a battery heater so the cold won't effect it nearly as much.

colm_mcm

Wonder if they got tired of it after 1600 miles?

Can't you get them new in the uk for like £15 grand now?

E30i

That's some bargain. If I only had the cash now ! it's practically brand new !

If I was doing a Dublin commute again it would pay back in 3.5 years over the Prius @60-64 mpg and including the 5k for the sale of the Prius , not many cars can claim that. I'd have to have a charger or fast charger on route though.

You have to expect a minimum of 60-70 miles in very cold weather @ 60 mph 75-84 in summer. Still that's 120 miles a day if you can charge up at your destination, Luas, quick charger etc.

Still a seriously good car for that money !

The Chevy Spark EV has a battery heater so the cold won't effect it nearly as much.[/QUOTE]


However it looks like it has had some damage as it is on V Car register. Just in case anyone considers it without realising this.

E30i

E30i wrote: »

However it looks like it has had some damage as it is on V Car register. Just in case anyone considers it without realising this.

Damaged but repaired perhaps ?

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Wonder if they got tired of it after 1600 miles?

Can't you get them new in the uk for like £15 grand now?

That's what I was thinking, maybe the range didn't suit. Afaik the charge point installation is not nearly as good in the UK ? though it's very hard to get a proper charge point map for there with all the points. Different maps have different locations.

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Can't you get them new in the uk for like £15 grand now?

Yes but that's without the battery, you have the option of buying or renting it.

It's 20,990 Pounds with battery leading me to believe they charge 5,000 pounds for the battery ?

And those are the prices for the basic model which excludes a hell of a lot of kit.

So the 2011-13's are very well kitted cars.

Also note that the new 2013 Leaf facelift ( easy spotted by the lack of the charger in the boot behind back seat) has no heatpump, no quick charge and no 6.6kw a/c charger, only 3.5 kw same as the 1st gen which also has no heat pump.

colm_mcm

If you're buying second hand, do you have to effectively take over the lease on the battery?
Are you restricted in who you can sell the car to then if Nissan own the battery?
how would you know if you were buying a used one who owned the battery?

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

If you're buying second hand, do you have to effectively take over the lease on the battery?
Are you restricted in who you can sell the car to then if Nissan own the battery?
how would you know if you were buying a used one who owned the battery?

Right, time to clear up the battery leasing issue.

For Nissan and Renault the battery stays with the car for the life of the vehicle, common misunderstanding.

as it stands now, the batteries will only be maintained never a new one installed so you'll never see 100% capacity again in any of the Nissan Renault electric cars. (this could change)

They guarantee 70% capacity or greater for something like 60 k miles and say 3 years but don't quote me on that.

However, that does not apply to wear and tear only defect.

So a battery in 3 years that has 70k miles and 70% remaining capacity rented or not does not matter, you don't get a new battery on a new lease.

Nissan and Renault will own the battery and the new owner simply leases the car with existing battery.

colm_mcm

I know the battery won't be removed, but for example, I take leave of my senses and buy that leaf, how do I know if I owe nissan a lease on a battery?
Can the owner actually sell a car where the batteries are leased without telling nissan?

Surely if I write a new Leaf off and the insurance company own it now, I wouldn't be paying Nissan for the battery anymore?

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

I know the battery won't be removed, but for example, I take leave of my senses and buy that leaf, how do I know if I owe nissan a lease on a battery?
Can the owner actually sell a car where the batteries are leased without telling nissan?

Surely if I write a new Leaf off and the insurance company own it now, I wouldn't be paying Nissan for the battery anymore?

I should have said Nissan Ireland will only sell the Leaf with the battery and there is no rental option. You will have paid for a new one over 4-5 years anyway or at least paid for repair if needed.

No word on Zoe yet if they will offer it with battery or not, I'd imgine a big part of the delay in releasing zoe in Ireland has to do with trying to convince Renault that any leasing does not work in Ireland.

But if you sell your car you have to notify Nissan to set up lease for the new owner.

If payment is not made Nissan/Renault can remote deactivate the charger so the car will not charge.

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Surely if I write a new Leaf off and the insurance company own it now, I wouldn't be paying Nissan for the battery anymore?

Correct, though Nissan will still own the battery the insurance will pay Nissan for damage to the battery.

colm_mcm

by write off, i mean i don't get the car back. say Cat D and it ends up in Ireland?

Would there be a settlement figure that'd have to be paid before the car can go out of your name and you can get the value of the car?

Max Power1

These are fast (pardon the pun) becoming a viable option tbh.

I would consider getting one if it were a little bit cheaper. I dont need the range most of the time, so for the boring week commuting I could sacrifice Olga and go to the dark side :P

(The even darker side that is EVs. Having seen the abuse I get for driving a diesel, imagine the treatment an EV driver would get :P)

thecomedian

Max Power1 wrote: »

These are fast (pardon the pun) becoming a viable option tbh.

I would consider getting one if it were a little bit cheaper. I dont need the range most of the time, so for the boring week commuting I could sacrifice Olga and go to the dark side :P

(The even darker side that is EVs. Having seen the abuse I get for driving a diesel, imagine the treatment an EV driver would get :P)

You're already on the dark side

But I would consider it for my wife if I could get one for the price in the title

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

by write off, i mean i don't get the car back. say Cat D and it ends up in Ireland?

Would there be a settlement figure that'd have to be paid before the car can go out of your name and you can get the value of the car?

If it ends up in Ireland Nissan (Will) still disable charging, until the battery is returned or new lease taken up, the previous customer would then have to pay any out standing money due.

I'm not sure about the settlement, if any would be an option.

I'm sure the HPI would show up if the battery is leased or not, certainly giving Nissan U.K the reg number would easily tell if the battery is leased or not.