New Nissan Leaf from €20,990

Sesshoumaru

unkel wrote: »

A very good price. If it suited my needs and if I had the budget to buy a new car, I would be tempted!

That said, they were 30k a year or so ago. Minus a 5k subsidy kindly provided by the tax payer. Where's the next 4k discount coming from? And then there's all the free infrastructure (kindly paid for by the tax payer) and free electricity (kindly paid for by the tax payer)

How cheap do leccy cars need to get before people actually start buying them?

About 1 in a thousand cars sold in the EU is electric at this time and it isn't really picking up.

P.S. The tax payer is sick of paying subsidies to well-off people and the tax payer doesn't believe electric cars contribute to a better / healthier world. He won't be kindly paying much longer!

Feel free to speak for yourself. You are not speaking for this tax payer

My Leaf was 30,500 when I bought it over 2 years ago. Not long after it dropped to 25,500. Now entry level is just under 21,000. All those figures are with the state subsidy. The way you said it didn't sound as clear to me.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

A very good price. If it suited my needs and if I had the budget to buy a new car, I would be tempted!

If I had the money right now I'd have a Leaf, no question.

unkel wrote: »

That said, they were 30k a year or so ago. Minus a 5k subsidy kindly provided by the tax payer. Where's the next 4k discount coming from? And then there's all the free infrastructure (kindly paid for by the tax payer) and free electricity (kindly paid for by the tax payer)

The reduction is the stripping of all the gadgets that were in the 1st Gen to tempt buyers.

unkel wrote: »

How cheap do leccy cars need to get before people actually start buying them?

I'd have a Leaf over a Golf any day. But that's me. I know the technology inside out and know the limitations and the benefits and to me the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages.

Having said that and funds permitting, I might just be tempted on the Golf E.V due in 2014. It's battery might be thermally managed and not be effected by heat or cold and would have full range all the year around. But nothing is final yet.

unkel wrote: »

About 1 in a thousand cars sold in the EU is electric at this time and it isn't really picking up.

True, but in Germany's case there are 0 incentives and 0 tax breaks for electric cars because the Germans do not produce electric cars just yet, that might change. And they won't subsidise another countries car manufacturing where we don't have any so it doesn't matter.

But again petrol and diesel to many is still affordable and to the low mileage driver they don't care about electric as long as the car gets them where they want to go they don't care what power train gets them there, to many all they might spend in a week is 20-30 euro's and that's still affordable. If people had to they would go electric, but the 2nd hand buyer currently has little choice and are waiting for the likes of the Leaf to get cheaper.

unkel wrote: »

P.S. The tax payer is sick of paying subsidies to well-off people and the tax payer doesn't believe electric cars contribute to a better / healthier world. He won't be kindly paying much longer!

The tax payer has to spend multiple billions for a bank bailout, I'd rather pay for electric cars to be on the road because of the health benefits by not having carcinogenic emissions being released by fossil fuel vehicles in our towns and cities, we pay tax on a gas that will not harm our health (C02) and yet it's acceptable that diesel exhaust be permitted in towns and cities that will harm our health ? crazy !!! We promote a tax system that rewards the most polluting of cars on our roads.

I'd rather pay for money to stay in Ireland by renewable/Nuclear being generated in Ireland creating Irish jobs. And there will be a marked for used E.V batteries in years to come for renewable storage, creating more jobs.

The tax payer has to spend many millions on street lighting that could be turned off when not needed like in Germany, if it works there it should work here. I see countless junctions lit up at all hours that are completely unnecessary here in the sticks, especially on what would have been old routes like the Moone Timolin bypass on the old N9.

I see the new M9 motorway junctions lit up for 2 kms either side of the junctions all night in winter when completely unnecessary costing the tax payer millions.

Electric cars can use the excess electricity generated at night by power stations that have to keep burning fuel to be ready to meet sudden demand greatly improving efficiency.

TrailerBob

Deleted User wrote: »

If I had the money right now I'd have a Leaf, no question.



The reduction is the stripping of all the gadgets that were in the 1st Gen to tempt buyers.



I'd have a Leaf over a Golf any day. But that's me. I know the technology inside out and know the limitations and the benefits and to me the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages.

Having said that and funds permitting, I might just be tempted on the Golf E.V due in 2014. It's battery might be thermally managed and not be effected by heat or cold and would have full range all the year around. But nothing is final yet.



True, but in Germany's case there are 0 incentives and 0 tax breaks for electric cars because the Germans do not produce electric cars just yet, that might change. And they won't subsidise another countries car manufacturing where we don't have any so it doesn't matter.

But again petrol and diesel to many is still affordable and to the low mileage driver they don't care about electric as long as the car gets them where they want to go they don't care what power train gets them there, to many all they might spend in a week is 20-30 euro's and that's still affordable. If people had to they would go electric, but the 2nd hand buyer currently has little choice and are waiting for the likes of the Leaf to get cheaper.



The tax payer has to spend multiple billions for a bank bailout, I'd rather pay for electric cars to be on the road because of the health benefits by not having carcinogenic emissions being released by fossil fuel vehicles in our towns and cities, we pay tax on a gas that will not harm our health (C02) and yet it's acceptable that diesel exhaust be permitted in towns and cities that will harm our health ? crazy !!! We promote a tax system that rewards the most polluting of cars on our roads.

I'd rather pay for money to stay in Ireland by renewable/Nuclear being generated in Ireland creating Irish jobs. And there will be a marked for used E.V batteries in years to come for renewable storage, creating more jobs.

The tax payer has to spend many millions on street lighting that could be turned off when not needed like in Germany, if it works there it should work here. I see countless junctions lit up at all hours that are completely unnecessary here in the sticks, especially on what would have been old routes like the Moone Timolin bypass on the old N9.

I see the new M9 motorway junctions lit up for 2 kms either side of the junctions all night in winter when completely unnecessary costing the tax payer millions.

Electric cars can use the excess electricity generated at night by power stations that have to keep burning fuel to be ready to meet sudden demand greatly improving efficiency.

Well said. I drive the old N9 and M9 every day there is plenty of needless lighting. The Irish public is afraid of electric though, and it will take some time to change. The 1.6 diesel has ecome the Holy Grail of Irish motring... (God help us!)Electric is not an option for me due to needing a jeep for the bits and bobs, and galactic mies, but if I had a 20 mile commute and €25k to spend...Leaf all the way.

It has eventually become an option for those who senselessly spend €30k on a new feckin' Jetta or the like

TrailerBob

TrailerBob wrote: »

but if I had a 20 mile commute and €25k to spend...Leaf all the way.

The Leaf can travel 150+ miles a day with public/work charging + fast charging.

lomb

The cheapest/ least burdonsome motoring is undoubtadly a ....................2000 polo 1 liter. 45-50 Mpg, 200 quid tax, 300 insurance, 0 depreciation, 0 cost of finance, budget 1 tyre a year at average miles =50 quid, servicing=1 oil change a year 50 quid, fuel say 12000miles which is above average, hey lets not reduce our mobility which is the main value= 2000
Total=2600 a year with an UNLIMITED RANGE and no real money down.
This has the advantage of not stripping out resources to build something like a leaf which will do a lot of damage.
I doubt any leaf would beat those costs EVER. Apart from depreciation the future battery cost will render the leaf worthless at year 7-10.

Of course if you want the crappiest lowest power car with 0 gadgets then that's fine but not everyone wants to drive such a thing.

A 13 year old leaf would be no more worthless than 00 polo when the time comes, you could always install a new battery if Nissan agree or fit an aftermarket one and the car would be as good as new if its been well minded in the first place.

When I created this thread I did so because anyone buying a new car should consider the leaf because its the cheapest car to fuel by far that is available. It's great to drive.

Buying any other new car
on petrol and diesel will cost much more. To run.

By the way the polo will need much more natural resources to drive on such as petrol, or have you forgotten that ?

The Leaf can be charged at night or day by a mix of wind energy and more is being added and you have the option to install your own solar and wind and you can even sell the excess to the grid.

But drive the polo and pollute the air, it's the cheapest thing to do and if it makes you feel better that you think it's better for the environment. Then go for it.

Not everyone has the money for a new car and so the polo option may be unavoidable, different matter altogether.

lomb

The problem with your argument is that you consider the leaf superior. Actually it is imho and most people inferior. The reason is that the range is restricted seriously and you have to change your lifestyle to fit the car or have a second car. There is of course great social badge value in owning something different and supposedly better so of course the leaf will win there. The toys are only needed because of the inferior power unit. Its an unnecessary problem that then needs a solution.

Part of the time I drive a car with 250+bhp, the rest of the time I drive a car with 75bhp. Quite honestly the 75bhp car has sufficient power for 99% of people and will quickly and reliably get you to ones destination. Of course the 'electric' giggling power of the 250bhp car is absent on full acceleration obviously on the 75bhp car but it is grand for commuting.

NIMAN

If the Leaf, or any other EV, was around the 15k mark, I'd seriously consider buying one.

I could live with one for sure, my daily commute is 45 miles total, so it would suit me fine.

Corkbah

I was considering the leaf or any other EV - but my commute is 70+ km each direction, so on a single charge I would be capable of making it into work and home (no charge points along the quays in Dublin near my work so I could possibly have to drive more than 70+km)

if there is any drop in power in the battery I wouldn't be capable of making my days journey without finding a charge point - which makes my commute longer than it already is.

and lets face it ...first couple of weeks it would be fine, but turn on AC or weather gets cold ... within a year, I doubt I would be able to make my commute, within 2 yrs I might be able to make it one way without having a charge (I read earlier that batteries are guaranteed min 70%) .... to be honest, at the moment the cars are not suitable for me and quite a lot of commuters, of course you add in the fact that charge points are very spread out - whats to stop some idiot from unplugging your car while its charging ? or plugging their own car in.....or heaven forbid, someone plugs their car in and leaves the car there while they spend their day in work (car could be charged in an hour or two - but they cant leave work) .... I just dont believe the infrastructure and incentives are there yet.

if I was in government, I would say EV should get 3-5yrs free parking from date of purchase - now thats an incentive to purchase a car..... for commuters !!

lomb

lomb wrote: »

The problem with your argument is that you consider the leaf superior. Actually it is imho and most people inferior. The reason is that the range is restricted seriously and you have to change your lifestyle to fit the car or have a second car. There is of course great social badge value in owning something different and supposedly better so of course the leaf will win there. The toys are only needed because of the inferior power unit. Its an unnecessary problem that then needs a solution.

Part of the time I drive a car with 250+bhp, the rest of the time I drive a car with 75bhp. Quite honestly the 75bhp car has sufficient power for 99% of people and will quickly and reliably get you to ones destination. Of course the 'electric' giggling power of the 250bhp car is absent on full acceleration obviously on the 75bhp car but it is grand for commuting.

The Leaf is currently the best affordable E.V available atm that's why I talk about it because what's the point creating a thread telling people to buy an electric car that is not available ? so in that sense I can see why you think I think the Leaf is superior, in many ways it is superior to many cars on the road.

The toys as you call them are great to have to be perfectly honest, and omitting them is not solving the real problem of battery costs. But it was necessary to bring costs down because a lot of people buy bog basic cars in Ireland so this won't matter anyway to many people only the cost to buy.

I don't know if the still high cost of the battery is down to contracts with NEC or if batteries have really not fallen in price.

I have no idea why you're even comparing the Leaf to a 250 hp ICE ? there is no comparing it power wise, you are nit picking just to find fault.

Why don't you compare your 250 hp car to the Tesla model S Sport ? the tesla would leave you standing, your 250 hp car might win in the top of the range speed wise, but the Tesla has the power where it's needed and well above legal limits, I see no reason to go further on a public road.

The Tesla range is 250-350 miles in real life conditions. (84 kwh battery) the Leaf has 24 with 21 usable.

There is no social benefit to me having a Leaf, I drove it and I really liked it, I love gadgets and technology so it would be a really good car for me, I also enjoy driving the CRV and the Prius.

I know the Leaf won't work for many but it will work for the majority, as I said there are not the incentives in going electric for Irish people as petrol and Diesel are still cheap for the low mileage driver.

The range would meet 95% of my driving within the 80 odd miles the Leaf is capable, there are more long journeys I can take with the new fast chargers and there are more coming soon meaning I can take even more journeys.

The Leaf would also save me a lot of money for that 95% over a car that costs the same, I could buy a Leaf in the U.K for 16,000 and sell the Prius and have to pay back 10-11 k not a huge amount of money for a car with 5-10K miles.

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

If the Leaf, or any other EV, was around the 15k mark, I'd seriously consider buying one.

I could live with one for sure, my daily commute is 45 miles total, so it would suit me fine.

You can get a 2011 in the U.K for €16,000 - costs to get there, I believe most of the charge points are free there currently but you need a badge to swipe at the charger, I think the dealers gives you this ? don't quote me.

It would be an interesting experience for sure bringing one home, but you can check if there are dealers near the ports and Irish ferries have chargers on board, you may have to book the charger.

I think you'll find you can do a lot more than 45 miles in a day !

BMJD

I would buy one first thing in the morning if I had a driveway to charge it on

Corkbah

Corkbah wrote: »

I was considering the leaf or any other EV - but my commute is 70+ km each direction, so on a single charge I would be capable of making it into work and home (no charge points along the quays in Dublin near my work so I could possibly have to drive more than 70+km)

I'm not sure I understand if you're saying you will or won't make it ? that's 90 odd miles in total and that's too far, you'll have to charge somewhere, have a word with your boss, company or see if you can charge at a Luas stop if you work in Dublin. Tell your boss you don't expect to charge for free and all you need is a 3 pin socket and get what's called the granny cable it's 10 amps and will work in a 13 amp extension fully extended of course and will give you enough charge for 90-120 miles a day. Charging outside might be different, you'd need at least one of those rcd protectors on the socket that you use for lawnmowers etc. don't quote me on that. But a proper 32 amp charger or evse would be best.

Corkbah wrote: »

if there is any drop in power in the battery I wouldn't be capable of making my days journey without finding a charge point - which makes my commute longer than it already is.

Yes that's true but it's unknown yet when you'll notice a loss of capacity and it will vary.

Simple golden rules of any lithium battery, charge to 80% and not run down below 30%, never leave charged at 100% for more than a few hours and if you need the range then use it.

Charging at work will greatly extend the life of your battery as you will reduce cycling. Ireland's climate is fairly kind to batteries as it's never too hot or cold.

Corkbah wrote: »

and lets face it ...first couple of weeks it would be fine, but turn on AC or weather gets cold ... within a year, I doubt I would be able to make my commute, within 2 yrs I might be able to make it one way without having a charge (I read earlier that batteries are guaranteed min 70%) .... to be honest, at the moment the cars are not suitable for me and quite a lot of commuters, of course you add in the fact that charge points are very spread out - whats to stop some idiot from unplugging your car while its charging ? or plugging their own car in.....or heaven forbid, someone plugs their car in and leaves the car there while they spend their day in work (car could be charged in an hour or two - but they cant leave work) .... I just dont believe the infrastructure and incentives are there yet.

The new Leaf has a more efficient heater the A/C is very efficient as in the Prius and the compressor is not on all the time. The 1st gen Leaf would always have a/c on when you wanted the fan on and this has been eliminated in the updated Leaf, now you can have the fan with 0 heat and 0 a/c and that suits me fine.

If you can charge at work you can have a decent amount of heat and a/c as you will have plenty of range. Without charging the Leaf wouldn't work for you with 90 miles a day in winter.

Corkbah wrote: »

if I was in government, I would say EV should get 3-5yrs free parking from date of purchase - now thats an incentive to purchase a car..... for commuters !!

Yes and in Norway the Leaf is the 5th best selling car so far in 2013 because there are so many incentives such as free parking, no congestion charge and they can use the bus lane.

I believe the Government could do a lot more such as 0 V.A.T for the first 10,000 E.V's, they would make a lot of money back by importing less fossil fuels for the power stations, charging from the wind energy and gas helping more money stay in the country. And they can use E.V's for storing surplus wind energy.

We need the E.U to have much higher taxes on Diesel and Diesel cars, and at the same time reduce costs of E.V's to balance that out, there are a lot that can be done.

The J Stands for Jay

Apart from the Luas park and ride, every public charging point I have seen had an ICE vehicle parked in front of it.

BMJD

BMJD wrote: »

I would buy one first thing in the morning if I had a driveway to charge it on

You park on street ? there may or may not be a charger on street ?

How long is your commute ? electric bicycles offer huge benefits and are great for health by using the motor assistance only when needed or on low settings, it attracts people to cycling that would otherwise be turned off by hills I tried out the Bosch E-bike system and it was fantastic and you can charge the battery inside.

Electric bike are outselling cars in the E.U !

These are some of the bikes available these are made by Haibike in Germany.





You can even get the bikes with automatic transmission using the Nuvinci harmony hub.



This company in Dublin sells a 45 kmh version made by Kalkhof

http://www.greenaer.ie/product/kalkhoff-endeavour-bs10-electric-bike/





Expensive bikes but better than paying road tax, fuel and insurance and above all a lot more fun than a car in the City.

I wouldn't recommend fast charging as your main way of charging for the Leaf, the Spark E.V will take daily multiple fast charging.

This is one reason we need chargers in supermarkets, and more on street and in work places.

McGaggs

McGaggs wrote: »

Apart from the Luas park and ride, every public charging point I have seen had an ICE vehicle parked in front of it.

They will be changing that so it will be illegal to park an ice car in a charging bay.

Some county councils already slap fines on cars or can toe away.

Guy:Incognito

lomb wrote: »

The cheapest/ least burdonsome motoring is undoubtadly a ....................2000 polo 1 liter. 45-50 Mpg, 200 quid tax, 300 insurance, 0 depreciation, 0 cost of finance, budget 1 tyre a year at average miles =50 quid, servicing=1 oil change a year 50 quid, fuel say 12000miles which is above average, hey lets not reduce our mobility which is the main value= 2000
Total=2600 a year with an UNLIMITED RANGE and no real money down.
This has the advantage of not stripping out resources to build something like a leaf which will do a lot of damage.
I doubt any leaf would beat those costs EVER. Apart from depreciation the future battery cost will render the leaf worthless at year 7-10.

Yeah but youd be driving a poxy polo.

BMJD

Deleted User wrote: »

You park on street ? there may or may not be a charger on street ?

How long is your commute ? electric bicycles offer huge benefits and are great for health by using the motor assistance only when needed or on low settings, it attracts people to cycling that would otherwise be turned off by hills I tried out the Bosch E-bike system and it was fantastic and you can charge the battery inside.

I have a parking space type thing in front of the house, with a public footpath in between so I can't trail a charger across it, the space is technically not my property either so can't install a charger there either. I don't think I would anyway because the local muppets would probably interfere with it. We are planning to move in the next couple of years so hopefully that will overcome that problem.

My commute is 55km each way (which rules out a bicycle!), mostly motorway. I have a 3rd Gen Prius anyway so running costs are as low as practical for me. My wife does mostly short journeys so an EV would be ideal for her and for me to use occasionally.

BMJD

BMJD wrote: »

My commute is 55km each way (which rules out a bicycle!), mostly motorway. I have a 3rd Gen Prius anyway so running costs are as low as practical for me. My wife does mostly short journeys so an EV would be ideal for her and for me to use occasionally.

To be honest If you get a Leaf then take it for your 110 km journey and give your Wife the Prius, that way you save the most and make more practical use of the E.V.

Talk to your boss about charging.

Something needs to be done about work charging, it's a hard one though because if battery range improves in 5-10 years then will people need so many chargers ? hard to know at this stage.

stimpson

Deleted User wrote: »

you'd be surprised the ground you could cover at 80-100 kph. and if there are fast chargers along the way even better.

Deleted User wrote: »

The 1st gen Leaf would always have a/c on when you wanted the fan on and this has been eliminated in the updated Leaf, now you can have the fan with 0 heat and 0 a/c and that suits me fine.

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course if you want the crappiest lowest power car with 0 gadgets then that's fine but not everyone wants to drive such a thing.

I'm confused. You don't want to drive a low power car yet you want to drive everywhere at 80kph. And you want a car with gadgets so you can switch them off. Interesting logic.

Max Power1

stimpson wrote: »

I'm confused. You don't want to drive a low power car yet you want to drive everywhere at 80kph. And you want a car with gadgets so you can switch them off. Interesting logic.

Not to mention he doesnt want a crappy Polo but is perfectly happy with a crappy EV!

stimpson

stimpson wrote: »

I'm confused. You don't want to drive a low power car yet you want to drive everywhere at 80kph. And you want a car with gadgets so you can switch them off. Interesting logic.

If you bothered to read this full thread you would have read that I said my previous commute got me there as fast between 80-100 kph as did the 120 kph + on the motorway because the motorway is longer and I have to travel faster to make up the same time. And I ran into traffic making the 120 -130 kph work out much the same time.

It's not nice having to reply to trolling anti e.v remarks by people who cherry pick pieces of my posts and turn them out of context to support their own anti e.v views or just for kicks.

But I'll let people that are interested and have read the full thread make up their own minds.

Regarding the Heat and A/C I did not mean that you have to drive around with 0 heat or a/c but the first gen Leaf only allowed heat or a/c with the fan on and there are plenty of times you can drive around in Ireland without needing the heat and a/c. The facelift leaf allows the fan blowing without forcing you to have either a/c or heat if you so choose.

Max Power1

Max Power1 wrote: »

Not to mention he doesnt want a crappy Polo but is perfectly happy with a crappy EV!

If you or others have nothing worth contributing to this thread than why bother posting at all ?

BMJD

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest If you get a Leaf then take it for your 110 km journey and give your Wife the Prius, that way you save the most and make more practical use of the E.V.

Talk to your boss about charging.

Something needs to be done about work charging, it's a hard one though because if battery range improves in 5-10 years then will people need so many chargers ? hard to know at this stage.

Once I overcome the home charging issue then I'll seriously be looking into whatever EVs are available at that time. I wouldn't want to be relying on charging at work.

BMJD

BMJD wrote: »

Once I overcome the home charging issue then I'll seriously be looking into whatever EVs are available at that time. I wouldn't want to be relying on charging at work.

That's a pain alright .

Though one possibility is to put the charger on the wall and run the cable under one of those cable things that go across the floor ?

This is where induction charging works best.

But talk to the ESB as they would be far more aware of what you can or can't do in these circumstances.

stimpson

Deleted User wrote: »

If you bothered to read this full thread you would have read that I said my previous commute got me there as fast between 80-100 kph as did the 120 kph + on the motorway because the motorway is longer and I have to travel faster to make up the same time. And I ran into traffic making the 120 -130 kph work out much the same time.

It's not nice having to reply to trolling anti e.v remarks by people who cherry pick pieces of my posts and turn them out of context to support their own anti e.v views or just for kicks.

But I'll let people that are interested and have read the full thread make up their own minds.

Regarding the Heat and A/C I did not mean that you have to drive around with 0 heat or a/c but the first gen Leaf only allowed heat or a/c with the fan on and there are plenty of times you can drive around in Ireland without needing the heat and a/c. The facelift leaf allows the fan blowing without forcing you to have either a/c or heat if you so choose.

I did read the thread. That's how I saw those contradicting posts. Everyone knows that to preserve range on an EV you need to keep your speed down. So you may as well be driving the polo you were looking down on.

Ditto with the aircon. You wouldn't have to factor in your range when you want aircon on the polo.

Oh, and disagreeing with you is not trolling.

Max Power1

Deleted User wrote: »

If you or others have nothing worth contributing to this thread than why bother posting at all ?

Just because I disagree with you doesnt mean I have nothing worthy of contributing. This is not a dictatorship, and it most certainly is not "EV or the highway."

You were on one hand dismissing the polo but yet you seem to see a bog standard EV with all extras either not supplied or switched off with a range of less than 100 miles as a positive improvement?

Now, I hate small cars as much as the next motors user, but give me one any day of the week over the likes of the leaf

ei9go

Can you charge an EV in the North or in Britain with your Irish smartcard?

Darius.Tr

I think EV`s won't be suitable for most of the people till the likes of Tesla Model S drop down in price and those superchargers appear all over the world.

Max Power1

Not to mention, the only EV I would ever consider is the Tesla S, and that is only because it has comparable range to an ICE.