New Nissan Leaf from €20,990

September1

It is almost reasonable prediction, but some stuff is overly optimistic. Those other car makers delivering EV cars with 200 mi range in 2015 or 2016? I do not think there is much chance for that, EV roads is paved with overly optimistic predictions.

September1

September1 wrote: »

It is almost reasonable prediction, but some stuff is overly optimistic. Those other car makers delivering EV cars with 200 mi range in 2015 or 2016? I do not think there is much chance for that, EV roads is paved with overly optimistic predictions.

No not 200 miles, but Leaf II in 2016/17 will almost without doubt have more range, and have a clear lead over the Germans. (again) Though if the E-Golf really is 30% more efficient than a Leaf then that would be impressive. That would give it close to a real 100 miles range, though the proof has yet to come !

130 miles is the sweet spot, the leaf needs 29 kwh/100 miles (according to the EPA) . it would need 37.7 kwh for 130 miles. or roughly 40 kwh at an optimum battery temp of 20 deg C.

I can definitely see 40 kwh at least as an option on Leaf II at an extra charge of course.

So my best guess is that Leaf II will have 30 kwh as standard with the option of up to 40 kwh.

I'm betting all this talk about people not wanting electrics for not having 500 mile range will die off sooner rather than later as more electrics are sold and people talk about how good they are and how they meed most of their needs as it is. I know in a petrol head forum most people would have me committed for saying such a thing !

The Leaf having a real 100 miles range alone would be a good improvement, 130 would be even better, people will decide what best meets their needs and this is the way to go.

It's complete madness to carry around a much larger and expensive battery than you need for 98% of your journeys if the fast charger network can meet the rest.

I've no doubt Leaf II will have faster charging, though it's easier for Tesla because their batteries are a lot larger and can naturally take a higher rate of charge compared to a much smaller battery.

Elon Musk has said that the Model E will have a 200 mile range for about 35K USD or most likely 35K ) Euro's, still expensive. But comparable to a VW Golf GTD with a fraction of the running costs and most likely a lot more Kit. And most likely similar performance.

Model E is due around 2017.

It's not hard to imaging the leaf advancing a lot after 6 years after release.

I would like to see the Leaf offered with a better interior, like the new quashqai, I saw the interior and was impressed, the Leaf is not as nice inside.

I would like to see Nissan offer higher power option on the next leaf.

They should also make an electric Quashqai.

yoke

After my experience with a nissan dealer here in dublin last year I really don't think they want to sell the leaf at all - what you're saying here about the ICE manufacturers only making EVs to fulfil regulatory obligations sounds dead right! I don't know if you were joking or serious

You're also right in your post above - EV manufacturers need to widen the range on offer here in Ireland - I didn't buy an EV last year as a 2nd car (opted for a cheap petrol instead) purely because they didn't cater to my market yet. I'm sure I'm not alone...

k123456

excellent article

http://transportevolved.com/2014/04/22/staff-car-report-nissan-leaf-loses-first-capacity-3-years-52-8k-miles/

Quote from the article

"As a consequence, those in extremely hot parts of the U.S. — many of whom have seen their LEAFs’ battery capacities fall enough to turn off two, three, or even four capacity bars in short order — laugh when I tell them our UK LEAF has lost its first bar after a mammoth 52,800 miles. Some of them reached the same point after just 12,000 miles, their car battery packs baked by the blistering Arizonan sun"
End Quote.

Nikki has used fast charging to the point of roasting the Leaf battery on more than one occasion and due to the mass of the battery this will take a few days to cool off. This is downright abuse, the Leaf is a well engineered car, but fast charging to the point the battery gets too hot is stupidity.

She says this is fine at 50 odd thousand miles and doesn't understand what all the fuss is about. However Steve Marsh did not abuse his battery nearly as much and lost his first bar after 78,000 miles. He charged at his work place and only started using the fast charger just before the first bar loss.

Nikki seems to think her battery will last 10 years but as the battery ages further the internal resistance increases and fast charging will be even harder on the battery accelerating the degradation, and because it's more stressed fast charging as it looses more capacity, it will heat up faster and faster, accelerating degradation even quicker.

However, if the Leaf battery gets hot enough it will limit the current from the fast charger, and so this slows charging, and this could be a real pain if you loose 2-3 capacity bars.

5-10 mins wouldn't be too bad on the Fast charger but not if it's hot.

I'm pretty sure the battery in the leaf with normal use will last at least as much as Steve Marsh's before the first capacity loss.

Even with the first loss of the capacity bar I could still make my daily commute.

For most Leaf owners the battery should last a very long time.

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

For most Leaf owners the battery should last a very long time.

In Ireland - probably yes.
But even on the Continent it might not be that good.

I recently read a long blog of Polish lad who was probably the first Leaf owner in Poland. He bought it in March 2013, before official Leaf distribution by Nissan began in Poland. He got 2012 model with 12k kms, after slight accident damage from Germany. He got parts sourced from UK (wing, bumper) and got it going.
He seemes a bit crazy, as there is very little charging network across Poland and he uses it even for longer trips with family. He charges it in Nissan dealers now, as well as anywhere possible. On petrol stations, restaurants, whereever he can plug in with extension lead.
He even said he once run out of power, and pushed the car to the next house and asked to borrow some electricity

Anyway - he checks his batter status with some android software few times a week, and his observations were quite interesting.

After he got it in March I think he had 98% of battery capacity.
In normal day circumstances he tries to charge up to 80%, to save battery's life.
Until summer he didn't loose any of battery capacity, but during really hot summer weeks (with temperatures above 35 deg) bettery capacity suffered. I think his readings went from 98% to 94% just after few weeks. And he didn't drive it that much during the summer anyway just to save the battery.
Then when it got colder in Autumn his capacity eventually returned down to 96%, but that's still 2% loss after just few weeks of hot weather.

In winter conditions there was another problem.
While normally fully charged battery allowed him for about 130km driving.
During cold winter days (say -15 deg) his range fell to less than 100km with the same driving style. And that's without using the heater.
When using the heater (and it's obvious that you need to use it at -15 deg on longer runs, battery would last for maybe 50-60km.
At really cold days like -25 to -30 deg, we are probably talking about 30-40km range on full charge with heating.

So summarising - in continental climate like in Poland, Leaf is great, but you might need to park it up for few weeks during the summer, preferebly in airconditioned garaged just to save battery capacity.
And during few weeks of cold spells at winter, you might again park it up, unless 40km range is enough for you.

Alternatively, installing aftermarket oil or petrol heater might be a solution for winter months, as heating consumes great part of battery power, but still range would be affeced anyway, even without heating, just due to low temperatures.

Luckily those problems are not really that relevant to Irish or UK climate.
But on the Continent, it doesn't sound that good. The more south, the more warm days so battery capacity will suffer, while the more north, the longer winters, and the more problems with greatly reduced range at those times.

Indeed very hot or cool climates can be tough on the battery and the lack of thermal management was a bit of a mistake.

But of course the Irish, U.K and many climates this isn't much of an issue apart form some range loss in winter which is less for the models with the heat pump.

The VW E-Golf has no thermal management and seemingly they tested it in Death Valley, and simply saw no need to cool the battery. I wonder if they heat it for winter ? anyway it will be a good while yet before we know about the E-Golf.

Nissan not allowing anyone to install a new battery is a bit crazy. There's money to be made from 2nd hand batteries for storage. Maybe they'll change their minds eventually as competition grows.

BMJD

Moreover, as far as we can tell, it’s the first LEAF in the UK to lose a bar.

well that's it for EVs then, back to the ever-reliable ICE :pac:

BMJD

BMJD wrote: »

well that's it for EVs then, back to the ever-reliable ICE :pac:

Well, just like a ice, it can be abused like Nikki's did to her battery.

People on the irishevowners group on Facebook were not happy that I mentioned this might happen, how dare I suggest the leaf was anything other than perfect and I'm deliberately trying to set out to ruin its reputation, I'm not a leaf owner therefore I should shut my mouth etc etc and on boards people tell me I see nothing wrong with the leaf and see it through rose tinted glasses.

I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't as far as I can tell, all I try to do is give meaningful accurate information and let people decide for themselves.

I know the leaf isn't perfect but it is a damned good first attempt of a mass produced electric car and fair play to Nissan for being the first to do it.

With proper care just like an ice car the leaf will last a long time and the battery will live on long after it's useless in an ev.

Fast charging a leaf to the point the battery roasts is stupidity of the highest kind.

There are leafs with similar mileage in the U.K with no loss of capacity.

I will have a leaf as soon as it's practical for me to do so I need a fixed permanent place of work and am contracting the last few years and can't find permanent work and I refuse to spend money on a car until such time as I know I can replace the funds in the bank. I most likely would not buy new because as a high mileage driver I'd loose too much.

Markcheese

Does this mean ev drivers will be bombing around with super sers under the bonnet in winter (or even on back seat)
Would better soft ware help solve battery abuse ? Turning off or slowing down a fast charger if it's overheating the battery, also could help with public chargers to allow 3 or 4 cars charge off one point...

Markcheese

How feasible would it be to have a small removable(suitcase style) generator fitted in an ev as a range extender , (know there'd be issues with exhaust fumes ect but they're not insurmountable) .
If you use a ev as normal most of the time and add a range extender just for long trips it could be a game changer...
(don't really know how much extra range you'd get from a 3 or 4 kw generator though , assume anything else would be a bit too heavy to be lugging in and out)

keithclancy

Markcheese wrote: »

How feasible would it be to have a small removable(suitcase style) generator fitted in an ev as a range extender , (know there'd be issues with exhaust fumes ect but they're not insurmountable) .
If you use a ev as normal most of the time and add a range extender just for long trips it could be a game changer...
(don't really know how much extra range you'd get from a 3 or 4 kw generator though , assume anything else would be a bit too heavy to be lugging in and out)

Thats an Opel Ampera.

Markcheese

Markcheese wrote: »

Does this mean ev drivers will be bombing around with super sers under the bonnet in winter (or even on back seat)
Would better soft ware help solve battery abuse ? Turning off or slowing down a fast charger if it's overheating the battery, also could help with public chargers to allow 3 or 4 cars charge off one point...

A LPG heater would have been a great idea and it would avoid VRT and still benefit from the grant.

A battery heater also would have been good.

The leaf does slow down charging to avoid heating but it has to get hot first, if it's too hot charging will be very slow.

Running through a few pools of water or a car wass that washes underneath helps.

Markcheese

Markcheese wrote: »

How feasible would it be to have a small removable(suitcase style) generator fitted in an ev as a range extender , (know there'd be issues with exhaust fumes ect but they're not insurmountable) .
If you use a ev as normal most of the time and add a range extender just for long trips it could be a game changer...
(don't really know how much extra range you'd get from a 3 or 4 kw generator though , assume anything else would be a bit too heavy to be lugging in and out)

The BMW I3 has the option called Rex. But it's 40K and I think thats for the absic one, not sure, not interested, too expensive Rex or not for it's size. And their PCP rates are a joke.

The problem with fitting a generator is it means it attracts VRT and you get 0 grant as it's not 0 emissions.

k123456

Is is possible to configure the leaf to stop at 80% charging

September1

k123456 wrote: »

Is is possible to configure the leaf to stop at 80% charging

Yes.

Markcheese

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The BMW I3 has the option called Rex. But it's 40K and I think thats for the absic one, not sure, not interested, too expensive Rex or not for it's size. And their PCP rates are a joke.

The problem with fitting a generator is it means it attracts VRT and you get 0 grant as it's not 0 emissions.

The BMW booster engine isn't removable and seriously reduces the electric range,
Was thinking more something you could install or remove in a couple of mins ..
range

Markcheese

Markcheese wrote: »

The BMW booster engine isn't removable and seriously reduces the electric range,
Was thinking more something you could install or remove in a couple of mins ..
range

You mean something diy ? would be too difficult and it would have to be pretty powerful to charge the battery in any meaningful time, so that means you got to have an engine with a generator attached.

The power in Rex mode on the I3 when the battery is near depleted is considerably reduced.

Morak Thun

Like others I am considering a Leaf. I have read back through this thread and thanks to those that are providing answers.

I have a few questions that I could not find the answer to.

1. Are public charge points expensive? Is there much difference price wise between a standard public charge point and a rapid charger?

2. Is the solar panel of any use? Is it worth the €300 extra?

3. Do all new models come with the ability to lock the charge cable to the charge socket? Is this lock any good? I can only imagine how uneconomical an EV would soon become if you had to replace stolen cables every few weeks.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

air

Morak Thun wrote: »

1. Are public charge points expensive? Is there much difference price wise between a standard public charge point and a rapid charger?

All still free for now

Morak Thun wrote: »

2. Is the solar panel of any use? Is it worth the €300 extra?

Bit of a gimmick to be honest, personally I wouldn't bother with it

Morak Thun wrote: »

3. Do all new models come with the ability to lock the charge cable to the charge socket? Is this lock any good?

No idea on this one, is there a big problem with stolen cables?
I would have thought the resale market would be pretty limited!

September1

I agree with air, I would even say that solar panel is useless.

Public chargers do lock cable already, so one cannot steal it from such locations.

kdouglas

Agree with the others on 1 and 2.

Morak Thun wrote: »

3. Do all new models come with the ability to lock the charge cable to the charge socket? Is this lock any good? I can only imagine how uneconomical an EV would soon become if you had to replace stolen cables every few weeks.

I've a Mk1 Leaf, which doesn't have the ability to lock the charge cable, I've never been particularly concerned about the charge cable getting stolen. It locks into the charge point side anyway.
The one or two times I've been at all concerned (i.e. charging in Dublin city centre), I've used a small padlock on the charge handle (there is a hole you can put a lock through on most of them).

Morak Thun

Okay, I am pretty much decided to buy a Nissan Leaf.

A couple of final questions if anyone could oblige.

Is the only difference between the 3.6kw and 6.6kw charger the amount of time it takes to charge the vehicle (the 6.6kw charger being approx twice as fast) or does the 6.6kw charger have any other advantages?

Do both types allow access to all public charge points?

Is there any difference with the home charging unit for the 3.6kw or 6.6kw model? I think I read somewhere that someone was going to try and talk the installer into installing a 32A home charger? Would that be some sort of upgrade or how does it all work?

Is there anything to consider if/when buying a granny cable? They do not seem to be advertised much in Ireland. I see them for sale at evconnectors for a large whack of money. Are they worth it? Are they safe?

As always thanks in advance.

willynt

Morak Thun wrote: »

Is the only difference between the 3.6kw and 6.6kw charger the amount of time it takes to charge the vehicle (the 6.6kw charger being approx twice as fast) or does the 6.6kw charger have any other advantages?

Do both types allow access to all public charge points?

No other advantages but reduce the charge time by x2 on charge point able to provide 32amp (6.6kWh).
Note that most of public charge points can deliver 22kWh, so no problem for the Leaf.

Morak Thun wrote: »

Is there any difference with the home charging unit for the 3.6kw or 6.6kw model? I think I read somewhere that someone was going to try and talk the installer into installing a 32A home charger? Would that be some sort of upgrade or how does it all work?

It's basically a different model of charger, and also the fitting has to support the 32amp of course.

Morak Thun wrote: »

Is there anything to consider if/when buying a granny cable? They do not seem to be advertised much in Ireland. I see them for sale at evconnectors for a large whack of money. Are they worth it? Are they safe?

Granny cable are limited to 10amp (~2.2kWh), so safe enough for any 13amp socket (and good quality wiring). I'm using granny cable as my only charger at home, as I do not qualify for free home charge point (2nd hand imported Leaf). I'm tempted to say that granny cable is a must if you travel around the island. Much convenient when staying at b&b or hostel with no charge point!

You can of course charge at 16 amps with the 32 amp 6.6 Kw charger also. The Home charging unit called EVSE will tell the Leaf what rate it can charge at.

The ESB afaik will only install a 16 amp and will install the 32 amp evse if you pay extra, imo very well worth while getting the 32 amp evse.

The 6.6 kw charger is a must imho, say you go to a fast charger and it's down you'll need to find a normal street charger and it will be a blessing when you can charge twice as fast, it could actually mean the difference between getting home and not.

Morak Thun

Thanks guys. Looks like I am buying a new leaf. Windsor is doing a good deal with €3,500 off. I will try and return and post how I am getting on.

Morak Thun

Morak Thun wrote: »

Thanks guys. Looks like I am buying a new leaf. Windsor is doing a good deal with €3,500 off. I will try and return and post how I am getting on.

Super, best of luck !

Lets us know how it goes.

homer911

Deleted User wrote: »

The 6.6 kw charger is a must imho, say you go to a fast charger and it's down you'll need to find a normal street charger and it will be a blessing when you can charge twice as fast, it could actually mean the difference between getting home and not.

Dont forget that its an extra €900 for the fast charger and you are generally at the mercy of whatever units are available or coming into stock from Nissan - be it spec, model or colour

Morak Thun

homer911 wrote: »

Dont forget that its an extra €900 for the fast charger and you are generally at the mercy of whatever units are available or coming into stock from Nissan - be it spec, model or colour

Looks like I will be getting the 3.6kw SV model in my preferred colour. I am confident given that I have a short commute, access to four nearby fast chargers, and rarely if ever travel too far outside Dublin, that the benefits of 6.6kw will be minimal.

Can anyone suggest a good place to pick up a granny charger?

Morak Thun

Morak Thun wrote: »

Looks like I will be getting the 3.6kw SV model in my preferred colour. I am confident given that I have a short commute, access to four nearby fast chargers, and rarely if ever travel too far outside Dublin, that the benefits of 6.6kw will be minimal.

Can anyone suggest a good place to pick up a granny charger?

Is the car in stock on the Island or will you have to order it ?

I'm waiting on PCP approval which is a intense process as a contractor, hoping to get white SVE with the 6.6Kw charger.

I'm sure you thought it through and the money you save on the faster charger you can put towards the granny charger. Though will you really need it ?

The first place I would start is

http://www.leaftalk.co.uk/forum.php