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New Nissan Leaf from €20,990
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Deleted User wrote: »It will be taken up very quickly if the E.U or Irish Government decide to change laws requiring 0 emissions in cities and requiring petrol and diesel to pay much more to do so. That's not unimaginable.
As I said earlier, many people spend 20 euro a week in Petrol or Diesel and the savings on going electric will not matter to them so the incentive isn't there.
If ICE cars become too expensive that people can't afford to run them then people will change.
That wont happen any time soon
Any government who did that would soon be out of office and lynched in the street. Too many people depend on ICE transport and don't have 25k to throw at a stopgap technology. Wait till the real replacement comes in and then maybe it is a possibility. You cant enforce a tax as an "incentive to change" without a viable option to change to.
I know you are the forum's mouthpiece for EVs and, while they have their uses, even you must surely accept that.
Nothing battery powered is ever going to be the ICE replacement.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »
Well you've swayed me to the EV fanboi brigade with that well thought out riposte!0 -
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Max Power1 wrote: »Maybe not, but I like to randomly go for a drive to somewhere just for the pleasure of driving.
Maybe it is 100-150-200km away. I have freedom to do so because I have an ICE which is refillable in a matter of <5 minutes and provides about 800-900km of range.
Give me an EV which can do that, otherwise it is a backwards step. Removal of the freedom to travel as I am currently afforded by my ICE vehicle.
If e.v's can charge faster I don't see the problem, we don't live in the outback of Australia. 0 -
Max Power1 wrote: »Well you've swayed me to the EV fanboi brigade with that well thought out riposte!
I was looking for a better one,
Such as these.
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Deleted User wrote: »When I created this thread I did so because anyone buying a new car should consider the leaf because its the cheapest car to fuel by far that is available. It's great to drive.
Buying any other new car on petrol and diesel will cost much more. To run.
By the way the polo will need much more natural resources to drive on such as petrol, or have you forgotten that ?
The Leaf can be charged at night or day by a mix of wind energy and more is being added and you have the option to install your own solar and wind and you can even sell the excess to the grid.
But drive the polo and pollute the air, it's the cheapest thing to do and if it makes you feel better that you think it's better for the environment. Then go for it.
Not everyone has the money for a new car and so the polo option may be unavoidable, different matter altogether.
Cost 'more to run' ? Well unless you have 20k under the bed, financing that is part of the cost 'to run' a car. Leaf's (Leaves ??) included. To remove the capital cost from TCO or running cost is disingenuous, to say the least. So add that back in, and then compare it to an ICE car at half the price, and the EV is no longer the cheapest.
The natural resources argument is just a straw argument. Unless EV's are made of paper maché (á la Trabant), and have batteries made from potatoes, then it's no shrinking violet when it comes to consuming rare-earth materials too: lithium, boron, alloys generally.....
The wind and solar argument is similary flawed. Neither of those will ever produce anything other than single-digit or low double-digit % of the grids requirements, and solar none at all at night.....
... to say that 'your' EV is charged by 'wind' and my tumble dryer on at the same time next door, on the same grid, isn't, is just playing with words & statistics. The fact of the matter is, say in winter, when we IMPORT energy from the UK grid, that both of our devices are using power generated by fission................
As for the air - well that too is manure, frankly. If Ireland banned cars tomorrow, it's international contribution to global CO2 production is so microscopic that it's effect would be impossible to measure, and the CO2 output of the globe would continue as-is. So why are we beating ourselves up about this ? Why can't we be honest and just admit that for this economy, for this topography and for this demographic, that fossil-fuel has a place ? Buy the best quality/most efficient car you can, use as little fuel as possible, by all means - but shoving it off a cliff in favour of another technology that isn't without it's own issues is just a form of denial. It's like say we MUST use solar and the Sahara must use Wave power, when neither of use patently have the ideal conditions for it.Deleted User wrote: »The Leaf is currently the best affordable E.V available atm that's why I talk about it because what's the point creating a thread telling people to buy an electric car that is not available ? so in that sense I can see why you think I think the Leaf is superior, in many ways it is superior to many cars on the road.
The toys as you call them are great to have to be perfectly honest, and omitting them is not solving the real problem of battery costs. But it was necessary to bring costs down because a lot of people buy bog basic cars in Ireland so this won't matter anyway to many people only the cost to buy.
I don't know if the still high cost of the battery is down to contracts with NEC or if batteries have really not fallen in price.
I have no idea why you're even comparing the Leaf to a 250 hp ICE ? there is no comparing it power wise, you are nit picking just to find fault.
Why don't you compare your 250 hp car to the Tesla model S Sport ? the tesla would leave you standing, your 250 hp car might win in the top of the range speed wise, but the Tesla has the power where it's needed and well above legal limits, I see no reason to go further on a public road.
The Tesla range is 250-350 miles in real life conditions. (84 kwh battery) the Leaf has 24 with 21 usable.
There is no social benefit to me having a Leaf, I drove it and I really liked it, I love gadgets and technology so it would be a really good car for me, I also enjoy driving the CRV and the Prius.
I know the Leaf won't work for many but it will work for the majority, as I said there are not the incentives in going electric for Irish people as petrol and Diesel are still cheap for the low mileage driver.
The range would meet 95% of my driving within the 80 odd miles the Leaf is capable, there are more long journeys I can take with the new fast chargers and there are more coming soon meaning I can take even more journeys.
The Leaf would also save me a lot of money for that 95% over a car that costs the same, I could buy a Leaf in the U.K for 16,000 and sell the Prius and have to pay back 10-11 k not a huge amount of money for a car with 5-10K miles.
Employer-subsidised fuel and infrastructure for the few, is that what you're promoting now ?Deleted User wrote: »I'm not sure I understand if you're saying you will or won't make it ? that's 90 odd miles in total and that's too far, you'll have to charge somewhere, have a word with your boss, company or see if you can charge at a Luas stop if you work in Dublin. Tell your boss you don't expect to charge for free and all you need is a 3 pin socket and get what's called the granny cable it's 10 amps and will work in a 13 amp extension fully extended of course and will give you enough charge for 90-120 miles a day. Charging outside might be different, you'd need at least one of those rcd protectors on the socket that you use for lawnmowers etc. don't quote me on that. But a proper 32 amp charger or evse would be best.
Yes that's true but it's unknown yet when you'll notice a loss of capacity and it will vary.
Simple golden rules of any lithium battery, charge to 80% and not run down below 30%, never leave charged at 100% for more than a few hours and if you need the range then use it.
Charging at work will greatly extend the life of your battery as you will reduce cycling. Ireland's climate is fairly kind to batteries as it's never too hot or cold.
The new Leaf has a more efficient heater the A/C is very efficient as in the Prius and the compressor is not on all the time. The 1st gen Leaf would always have a/c on when you wanted the fan on and this has been eliminated in the updated Leaf, now you can have the fan with 0 heat and 0 a/c and that suits me fine.
If you can charge at work you can have a decent amount of heat and a/c as you will have plenty of range. Without charging the Leaf wouldn't work for you with 90 miles a day in winter.Yes and in Norway the Leaf is the 5th best selling car so far in 2013 because there are so many incentives such as free parking, no congestion charge and they can use the bus lane.
I believe the Government could do a lot more such as 0 V.A.T for the first 10,000 E.V's, they would make a lot of money back by importing less fossil fuels for the power stations, charging from the wind energy and gas helping more money stay in the country. And they can use E.V's for storing surplus wind energy.
We need the E.U to have much higher taxes on Diesel and Diesel cars, and at the same time reduce costs of E.V's to balance that out, there are a lot that can be done.
Norway ? Don't make me laugh. I have family there, and one of the reasons why it's such a fantastic place to live, and one of the reasons they ripped out their oil fired central heating and replaced it with electric, is the abundance and low price of electricity. But the real reason is that all those measures, including the encouragement for EV's are a subsidised by an economy that is completely awash with cash from...........OIL !! Ironic, huh ?
And if the only thing you can think of to promote EV usage, is to force more of the general populace into fuel poverty by excising their only accessible fuel source into oblivion, then frankly, you're failing. If EV's cannot stand and succeed completely on their own merits, then they have no place other than that as a peripheral motoring curiosity. And that most assuredly should NOT be subsidised by non-EV users.
And this is what is annoying by the EV threads on here. Invariably it gets derailed by matters other than the subjective. Do they work ? Are they practical ? Are they affordable to buy ? Are they affordable to fuel/tax/insure ? Are they long-life durable ?
I'll be honest: I'm a petrol head. But i'd still like to try an EV. I can see some distinct advantages. But the balance is still skewed against them - for now.
Keeping the analogy of an actual balance, consider this: adding weight to the other side of the 'balance' - the fossil fuel side - is counterproductive. The answer is to remove weight from the EV side.
As Colin Chapman said: "add lightness" .......(or similar)Ode To The Motorist
“And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road”
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Cost 'more to run' ? Well unless you have 20k under the bed, financing that is part of the cost 'to run' a car. Leaf's (Leaves ??) included. To remove the capital cost from TCO or running cost is disingenuous, to say the least. So add that back in, and then compare it to an ICE car at half the price, and the EV is no longer the cheapest.
The natural resources argument is just a straw argument. Unless EV's are made of paper maché (á la Trabant), and have batteries made from potatoes, then it's no shrinking violet when it comes to consuming rare-earth materials too: lithium, boron, alloys generally.....
The wind and solar argument is similary flawed. Neither of those will ever produce anything other than single-digit or low double-digit % of the grids requirements, and solar none at all at night..... ... to say that 'your' EV is charged by 'wind' and my tumble dryer on at the same time next door, on the same grid, isn't, is just playing with words & statistics. The fact of the matter is, say in winter, when we IMPORT energy from the UK grid, that both of our devices are using power generated by fission................
As for the air - well that too is manure, frankly. If Ireland banned cars tomorrow, it's international contribution to global CO2 production is so microscopic that it's effect would be impossible to measure, and the CO2 output of the globe would continue as-is. So why are we beating ourselves up about this ? Why can't we be honest and just admit that for this economy, for this topography and for this demographic, that fossil-fuel has a place ? Buy the best quality/most efficient car you can, use as little fuel as possible, by all means - but shoving it off a cliff in favour of another technology that isn't without it's own issues is just a form of denial. It's like say we MUST use solar and the Sahara must use Wave power, when neither of use patently have the ideal conditions for it.
Employer-subsidised fuel and infrastructure for the few, is that what you're promoting now ?
Norway ? Don't make me laugh. I have family there, and one of the reasons why it's such a fantastic place to live, and one of the reasons they ripped out their oil fired central heating and replaced it with electric, is the abundance and low price of electricity. But the real reason is that all those measures, including the encouragement for EV's are a subsidised by an economy that is completely awash with cash from...........OIL !! Ironic, huh ?
And if the only thing you can think of to promote EV usage, is to force more of the general populace into fuel poverty by excising their only accessible fuel source into oblivion, then frankly, you're failing. If EV's cannot stand and succeed completely on their own merits, then they have no place other than that as a peripheral motoring curiosity. And that most assuredly should NOT be subsidised by non-EV users.
And this is what is annoying by the EV threads on here. Invariably it gets derailed by matters other than the subjective. Do they work ? Are they practical ? Are they affordable to buy ? Are they affordable to fuel/tax/insure ? Are they long-life durable ?
I'll be honest: I'm a petrol head. But i'd still like to try an EV. I can see some distinct advantages. But the balance is still skewed against them - for now.
Keeping the analogy of an actual balance, consider this: adding weight to the other side of the 'balance' - the fossil fuel side - is counterproductive. The answer is to remove weight from the EV side.
As Colin Chapman said: "add lightness" .......(or similar)
Of course you're absolutely right,
Everyone reading this is really going to have to sit back and think twice.
I see the light now.
E.V's are rubbish.
ICE cars win hands down.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »If e.v's can charge faster I don't see the problem, we don't live in the outback of Australia.
Still a backwards step. I can drive around the country from dublin to dublin via belfast donegal galway kerry and cork, without stopping to charge every 100 km or so.
I'd reckon even my 3.0d would surpass 1000km of range when driven at a constant 100-120 kph.
For something "new" to not match the existing product in terms of capability, it means it is not the answer.
It would be like me promoting a new type of VHS to compete with HD DVDs. Nonsensical.0 -
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