New Nissan Leaf from €20,990

creedp

Deleted User wrote: »

So now it's a 6k grant ?

No it isn't a priority at all for to subsidise unless we much reduce xxxx amount of emissions, or creating cleaner air, that is important. But i don't think we should worry about ev sales yet and the grant is only for the first 5000 cars or so, the free charger 1000 ? so it's nothing to get worked up over.

We subsidise wind energy companies who invest in wind farms and turn around and charge us a fortune for electricity and have the cheek to offer 18,500 a year to land owners in the Midlands per turbine they we have to subsidise ! that's costing far far more ! meanwhile you or I get nothing for the installation of wind or solar pv.

You can argue whether this is an appropriate policy or not .. the the reason wind turbines are grant aided is to reduce our dependance on fossil fuels and reduce our CO2 emissions .. this is one of the reason it is more acceptable for EV drivers to use duty free electricity to fuel their vehicles, i.e. electricity will be considered a clean(er)/renewable source of energy .. no need for further subsidisation of the end user especially when it comes to fueling cars.

As long as the ICE and fuel is affordable there are no incentives to change to electric for most people.

So you expect people who drive cars/vehicles that do not have a EV equivalent to pay up so you and people for whom EVs suit their needs can drive even cheaper cars. Fair enough .. you're entiteld to your opinion.

Max Power1

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody said the electricity should be free but there is no reason the charge can't go on to the users electricity bill and the company not get billed at all.

Couldnt they use the card system currently in use on the echargers in town?

So the EV driver swipes a card and it logs in and uses their electricity account info from home, even if it is at the employer's location?

If that was possible and incentivised I think ( on the proviso that EVs came down in price) that the EV uptake would be a lot better. There are few people that would need full range to drive to work.

peter_dublin

Max Power1 wrote: »

Couldnt they use the card system currently in use on the echargers in town?

So the EV driver swipes a card and it logs in and uses their electricity account info from home, even if it is at the employer's location?

If that was possible and incentivised I think ( on the proviso that EVs came down in price) that the EV uptake would be a lot better. There are few people that would need full range to drive to work.

Yes, that is possible but you are back to the ESB charging your car and not your employer which is not what MAD LAD is calling for, what you describe is the ESB chargers in a companies car park seperate to the companies own power systems, no issue there but the ESB is not likely to roll that out and a company is not likely to invest the in it either given the drive is towards the reduction of power usage in companies, even with ESB providing the charging if its liked into the companies supply rather than the ESB directly there is still overheads and other costs to them bar the cost of just the power used.

For example in our apartment complex if the ESB offered to come in and install 11 chargers in the 11 parking places directly off the grid free of charge using their billing system I would have no issue, we have sub station of site etc. The management company doesn't have an ESB Supply as the lighting etc is provided by the council as its an older development. Now if the ESB are not going to provide power then what are the options, the Management Company gets a large supply put in, the cost of works, 11 chargers and are charged for the power and then using the ESB tag try and recoup the costs from unit owners as it is the Management Companies supply after all or do ESB bill owers directly. Its very unclear. The alternative is a feed from each units supply to a parking spot and charger. Again no chance of this.

I find it laughable in this country if you heat your house with a Storage heater your can only get a BER of E due to the 30% power loss accross the grid but if your buy an EV you get grants etc.

September1

peter_dublin wrote: »

I find it laughable in this country if you heat your house with a Storage heater your can only get a BER of E due to the 30% power loss accross the grid but if your buy an EV you get grants etc.

That is one thing that makes sense, to create electricity you have to waste some thermal energy, while creating thermal energy by itself is extremely efficient. To get mechanical energy (to move car) you also need to waste thermal energy, hence free heating in all ICE. In general converting electricity to thermal is wasteful process.

As nearly comments are directed at me I'll try respond but not to all individually unless the post is short. I'll be here forever so I'm not deliberately ignoring comments.


There is no reason your ESB public charger swipe card can't be used for work or Apartment chargers.

There is no reason there can't be charged a monthly rental to cover the cost of installation and upkeep of these chargers also.

You would simply ring up your electric company and tell them you got an e.v and you want a work charger installed, they will then call up the contractor and your electric company charge you the rental and bill you for electricity used at peak rate, or maybe a discount ( jesus anti ev people at least give me a discount ) feck sake, I'm trying my best here. :-)

You change jobs another ev owner can use the charge point.

You call up the management agency of your apartment you want a charge point, they give you written permission and you call up your electric company.

But there needs to be government legislation that prevents companies or management companies from not allowing chargers.

Chargers in apartments will be mainly in carparks and won't stick out like satellite dishes.

This isn't going to happen over night so it would be much easier to implement.

Those who must park on street are in a difficult situation but perhaps a fast charge might do them 2-3 days use ? or the work charger.

It also shouldn't be difficult to do, but I believe there would be opposition just for the sake of it with reasons why it can't be done.

If you look for many ways something shouldn't be done then nothing will be done.

Zubeneschamali

Deleted User wrote: »

You would simply ring up your electric company and tell them you got an e.v and you want a work charger installed.

Who will pay the electric company to carry out this work?

Soarer

I hate the way every thread about EVs turn into the same arguments over and over again.

The thread was started to let people know the price of the new Leaf. Why does it have to descend into ICE Vs EV like every other thread?

MuppetCheck

Can Mad_Lad have his own forum?

Soarer

Fair play on the ciggies Muppet. Great going.

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Who will pay the electric company to carry out this work?

The Government can pay this but they get it back.

Other than that it could be incorporated into the cost of an ev or reduce the grant from 5k to 3k, but then what's the point of the rental ? Maybe for extra unforced civil works ? Upkeep ?

MuppetCheck

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Can Mad_Lad have his own forum?

Or just an ev section on boards would be nice and ban the ev haters

166man

Deleted User wrote: »

Or just an ev section on boards would be nice and ban the ev haters

Jesus that would be a fair wild bunch alright...

ba_barabus

166man wrote: »

Jesus that would be a fairly charged up bunch alright...

EFA

ba_barabus

ba_barabus wrote: »

EFA

EFA ?

ba_barabus

Deleted User wrote: »

EFA ?

Edited for accuracy

Re-read the quote

Oh yeah I see it now,

yoke

How far is your commute and would you ask your boss to install a charge point at least to entertain the idea ?

Hi Mad_Lad,

My commute is about 25km each way, and I wouldn't be driving more than 100km in total on most days.

Re boss installing a charge point... I wouldn't even bother asking to be honest, as it's so unlikely to happen right now.
Due to the ridiculous shortage of parking spaces in the business park we are based in, the company has had to rent space for an "overflow carpark" from another company located nearby, and I end up having to park there most days.

BTW, I saw on Autotrader.co.uk last week a 2012 for 16K Euro's if anyone was interested.

I'd be interested in this - do you know if there is any import duty/VAT/other fee that would need to be paid on a second-hand EV from the UK if you want to register it in ireland?

I had asked the nissan dealer how much a standard charge point costs - he said about €800 for one that fits a nissan leaf, and about €200 labour cost for an electrician to install it.

Cheers,
Sam

yoke

yoke wrote: »

Hi Mad_Lad,

My commute is about 25km each way, and I wouldn't be driving more than 100km in total on most days.

You're sorted so at that mileage, you would probably even get away with preheating in winter after work, so you'll get into a nice warm car.

yoke wrote: »

Re boss installing a charge point... I wouldn't even bother asking to be honest, as it's so unlikely to happen right now.
Due to the ridiculous shortage of parking spaces in the business park we are based in, the company has had to rent space for an "overflow carpark" from another company located nearby, and I end up having to park there most days.

At the mileage you'll be doing I wouldn't worry about it.

yoke wrote: »

I'd be interested in this - do you know if there is any import duty/VAT/other fee that would need to be paid on a second-hand EV from the UK if you want to register it in ireland?

There is nothing to pay bringing in an E.V from the U.K provided it's over 6 months and I think, (don't quote me on this ) 6,000 miles on the clock, I know you will find it on the revenue site somewhere.

yoke wrote: »

I had asked the nissan dealer how much a standard charge point costs - he said about €800 for one that fits a nissan leaf, and about €200 labour cost for an electrician to install it.

[/QUOTE]

Sounds about right to me, just make sure the cable itself is rated for 32 amps should you ever get an e.v that charges at 6kw. You would have to replace the rcd at the consumer unit and the charger on the wall, or just get one that will charge at 32 amps. Will cost more.

Just remember to charge to 80%, (there is an option for this in the timer setting,) and not let it run below 30% ish and you should get many years out of the leaf, and watch the fast charging, don't do it if the battery is very warm. If you need all the range then use it , but when you don't need it don't use all the battery.

You should be able to do a fair few long journeys using the qc points being installed for the occasional long trip.

I think that while the heat pump might be better, I have no data yet as to how efficient it is over the old heater. But it won't matter at your mileage.

Max Power1

Deleted User wrote: »

Or just an ev section on boards would be nice and ban the ev haters

Nooo!
Sure we'd lose the banter between the fossil fueled EV's and the Dinosaur powered ICEs!

I do think that these kind of threads are good for the forum, I know I have changed my attitude somewhat to EV's since reading some of Mad_Lad's posts. (I mean, once you filter out the fanboi-ism there are some interesting facts there :P )

Max Power1

Max Power1 wrote: »

Nooo!
Sure we'd lose the banter between the fossil fueled EV's and the Dinosaur powered ICEs!

I do think that these kind of threads are good for the forum, I know I have changed my attitude somewhat to EV's since reading some of Mad_Lad's posts. (I mean, once you filter out the fanboi-ism there are some interesting facts there :P )

Ah I'll convert yez yet lads, don't worry !

Fossil fuelled ev's, haha I like that one !

galwaytt

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah I'll convert yez yet lads, don't worry !

Fossil fuelled ev's, haha I like that one !

...reminds me of a very, very old Hal Roche joke..........(from 30 years back, so forgive if not word-perfect.....)

".....engineers have perfected the electric car - it only cost £2 to travel from Galway to Dublin..............



........but it cost £6000 for the flex !!

Matt Simis

Max Power1 wrote: »

I do think that these kind of threads are good for the forum, I know I have changed my attitude somewhat to EV's since reading some of Mad_Lad's posts. (I mean, once you filter out the fanboi-ism there are some interesting facts there :P )

Here is a random fact to ponder, as far back as the turn of the century when the first Tanks were being made (aka "Landships" back then), many of them used Petro or Diesel-Electric powertrains. This continues to this day in various models (though not all by any means, the M1 Abrams until recently used a Turbine). Here is the spec on a Wehrmacht "Ferdinand", designed and built by that car company, Porsche AG.

The two Porsche air cooled engines in each vehicle were replaced by two 300 PS (296 hp; 221 kW) Maybach HL 120 TRM engines. The engines drove electric generators, which in turn powered electric motors connected to the rear sprockets. The electric motors also acted as the vehicle's steering unit. This "petrol-electrical" drive delivered 0.11 km/l off road and 0.15 km/l on road at a maximum speed of 10 km/h off road and 30 km/h on road. Besides the high fuel consumption and the poor performance the drive system was also maintenance-intensive; the sprockets needed to be changed every 500 km. Porsche had experience of this form of petrol-electric transmission extending back to 1901, when he designed a car that used it.

None of them used batteries for energy storage as the problems we face today (time to charge, infrastructure, degraded performance over time, weight of batteries, battery management system problems and sheer cost of batteries) were of course similar but worse in the 1940s. What's remained consistent over time is nothing has trumped "mineral" fuels as the most suitable fuel source.. and given so called mineral fuels are nature and solar power refined and concentrated over millennia, it shouldnt be surprising that man has failed to whip out something better in a mere 150years.

galwaytt

galwaytt wrote: »

".....engineers have perfected the electric car - it only cost £2 to travel from Galway to Dublin..............



........but it cost £6000 for the flex !!

Matt Simis

Matt Simis wrote: »

What's remained consistent over time is nothing has trumped "mineral" fuels as the most suitable fuel source.. and given so called mineral fuels are nature and solar power refined and concentrated over millennia, it shouldnt be surprising that man has failed to whip out something better in a mere 150years.

That's because oil has been dirt cheap for many years and fuel still is cheap today, except in Europe where we pay probably the highest taxes on fuel in the world.

The rest of the world has no incentive to use or search for another fuel source. Except for some renewable and Nuclear.

Thorium L.F.T.R could be the next source of energy that will power the next 100+ years. And some countries will have one in the next 2 years or so, India and maybe China. The U.K are also considering it. Ireland will be at the mercy of foreign energy companies for many years as the Government try fool us into thinking that wind will power us into the future, if that was so then why are the U.K planning 20 more Nuclear stations ? because they know that wind power will never meet their demand for electricity, into the future. But Ireland loves the seen to be green image.

So that's electricity, now imagine if you replaced transport with electricity and to make hydrogen ? imagine your total electricity needs then ? That's why we need to start the debate over Nuclear now, but people scared of Nuclear will try force down our throats that L.F.T.R is also dangerous and keep us in the dark ages, we have no leadership in Ireland who will do what needs to be done for the best interests of Ireland for the future.

In relation to batteries, who knows what would have happened electric cars if GM didn't sell the NiMh battery patents to Chevron Texaco an oil company ?

Texaco then turned around and told GM that you can't have the battery for your electric car and then told Toyota no, you can't use our battery for a full electric, but they did allow Toyota, Honda etc to use a tiny battery for Hybrids such as the Prius.

Who knows what what battery revolution would have been sparked off by competition ?

After GM scrapped the EV 1 who had a real range of around 100 odd miles the whole world thought that that was it and nobody bothered to invest or continue research into batteries or electric cars.

Today this has changed greatly and there is a race for better batteries and Lithium Air is the most promising of all the technologies so far, when we'll actually have it who knows ? but in the meantime current battery tech will improve.

Will the Leaf MK II have more range ? yes it sure will but it won't be 200 miles perhaps 100-110 miles max real range and not be effected in the cold and it will most likely be cheaper. The battery would probably be lighter. It should also have faster charging as Nissan have been testing 10 min charging the last 2 years or so.

100-110 real miles would really be a game changer, it would open up electric cars to a lot more people.

Even today the Leaf can do 110+ miles easily with a QC or Luas/public chargers etc it won't suit everyone but at least the option is there for those who it would be suitable for.

Zoe, a car ahead of it's time with the most advanced charger of any ev in the world will at most take less than an hour form all ESB non fast QC points, and less than 30 mins for an 80% charge at an a/c QC point. And limited at home by your mains supply !

BailMeOut

what happens if battery runs out of charge in mid journey? Is there a way to 'jump' an electric car from another normal car to charge batteries enough to get you to a charge point or do you need to call a tow truck?

BailMeOut

BailMeOut wrote: »

what happens if battery runs out of charge in mid journey? Is there a way to 'jump' an electric car from another normal car to charge batteries enough to get you to a charge point or do you need to call a tow truck?

You can't jump a 400 volt battery from a 12v car battery if that's what you mean ? :eek::eek:

You call the AA and they can transport or toe you.

BailMeOut

Deleted User wrote: »

You can't jump a 400 volt battery from a 12v car battery if that's what you mean ? :eek::eek:

You call the AA and they can transport or toe you.

So no way to invert from a 12v DC to 220 VAC and plug electric car in and charge normally at side of road?

BailMeOut

BailMeOut wrote: »

So no way to invert from a 12v DC to 220 VAC and plug electric car in and charge normally at side of road?

Even is you could you'd need a fair few car batteries.

Think about it.

12 V 40 amp hour car battery has 480 watt hrs of energy or much less because lead acid batteries really only give half their rated capacity.

The average consumption of the Leaf is 3.5 kwh per mile.

That = 300 amp hrs @12 volts or 7.5x 12 volt car batteries @40 amp hr.

Though you would probably need much more because lead acid batteries are dirt and only really give half or so of their usable capacity.

So that's 7.5 car batteries for 1 mile of range. That's excluding losses in the inverter.

The Leaf has 24 kwh battery with 21 usable, so 3.5 kwh average consumption x 21 = 73.5 miles on a new battery.

at 3.5 kw for the leaf MK 1 you'd pull 291.66 amps @ 12V -220 volts

the Leaf MK 1.5 6.5kw charger would pull 541.66 amps to convert to 220 volts.

So you'd need at least 600 amp hr worth of 12 v car batteries that's 7.2 kwh of battery or 15 car batteries.

The reason is lead acid batteries are good for cranking or a few hundred amps peak but for continuous use like charging you's need to pull no more than 1C that's capacity of the battery in ah x1 so 600 amp h batteries is 600 amp draw.

And that's 2 miles of range, so you see how bad lead acid batteries are ?

Max Power1

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah I'll convert yez yet lads, don't worry !

Fossil fuelled ev's, haha I like that one !

Sure where do you think electricity comes from!
Bar a minority from renewables the vast majority is from fossil fuels!

Max Power1

Max Power1 wrote: »

Sure where do you think electricity comes from!
Bar a minority from renewables the vast majority is from fossil fuels!

Yes but you have much less harmful emissions in town, money point will spew out the crap it does regardless.

Electric cars are also much more efficient than ice cars.

Power stations have to be kept burning fuel at off peak times to be ready to produce electricity on demand that wastes huge amounts of fuel and charging batteries can greatly increase the efficiency of the power stations.

Electric cars can also charge from excess wind energy that would otherwise have to be turned off.

Max Power1

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but you have much less harmful emissions in town, money point will spew out the crap it does regardless.

Electric cars are also much more efficient than ice cars.

Power stations have to be kept burning fuel at off peak times to be ready to produce electricity on demand that wastes huge amounts of fuel and charging batteries can greatly increase the efficiency of the power stations.

Electric cars can also charge from excess wind energy that would otherwise have to be turned off.

If we all switched to EVs tomorrow, it would be:

-More Pollutant?
-Less Pollutant?
-No Change?

Ill go for no change. All of the facts in your post would still happen (excess fuel wasted in stations etc). But we would require more electricity, so more fossil fuels burned.

Maybe there would be a slight decrease due to the minute amount of renewables used in electricity generation, but nothing major.

Plus we have to factor in the energy used to create all these new ev's which we will be changing to.

Max Power1

Max Power1 wrote: »

If we all switched to EVs tomorrow, it would be:

-More Pollutant?
-Less Pollutant?
-No Change?

Ill go for no change. All of the facts in your post would still happen (excess fuel wasted in stations etc). But we would require more electricity, so more fossil fuels burned.

Maybe there would be a slight decrease due to the minute amount of renewables used in electricity generation, but nothing major.

Plus we have to factor in the energy used to create all these new ev's which we will be changing to.

No everyone will change over night but as much energy will most likely be used to make electric cars as ice cars.

You're forgetting electric cars are much more efficient. And much cheaper to run.

Max Power1

Deleted User wrote: »

No everyone will change over night but as much energy will most likely be used to make electric cars as ice cars.

You're forgetting electric cars are much more efficient. And much cheaper to run.

More efficient but require more frequent charges.

Also, cheaper to run for now, until a larger number of people change, at which point they will be taxed like normal cars, and something like "road electricity" (similar to the road diesel/green diesel) will be brought in.

Matt Simis

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but you have much less harmful emissions in town, money point will spew out the crap it does regardless.

This statement doesnt change the fact that EVs are currently "powered by fossil fuels" though does it? Also moving from a dispersed emissions model to a massively localised one also doesnt "erase" those emissions. They still exist and if anything, increased Power Station demand would mean anyone within 100km of a (fossil) power station would suffer decreased air quality, however this tidbit is never discussed as the pro-EV lobby schizophrenically calls Power Plants rubbish and inefficient at night yet somehow clean and efficient when they want to charge 200,000 EVs at once, at some random time. They cant be both.

Electric cars are also much more efficient than ice cars.

Im still waiting on someone to explain why we should care about this much vaunted "efficiency" (which is of EV "motors", not EV "cars") difference as from a performance standpoint, statically Li-Ion is grossly inferior in energy density. Only from a "social conscience" angle does this card have any playtime and thats largely irrelevant.

Power stations have to be kept burning fuel at off peak times to be ready to produce electricity on demand that wastes huge amounts of fuel and charging batteries can greatly increase the efficiency of the power stations.

This is terribly over simplified and at best, not currently even a "solution" to a problem that shouldnt exist, as we dont have a fleet of EVs so they arent playing any role at all in this.
Power Plants should not (and in the modern world argually do not) "waste huge amounts of fuel" at night. This mostly also only applies to Coal and mineral power plants anyhow, but this problem is addressed via:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage
If you store energy, you arent wasting it whenever demand drops. Nothing to do with EVs and should be mandated (and likely is, didnt check) globally anyway.

As per that link, if we lived in a world with massive EV rollouts and the bulk of them where somehow always near fully charged, they could be used as a direct grid storage device. But compared to a problem specific solution, not a tier 1 option by any stretch. Also an EV driver that leaves their car on charge and comes back to find its sold 33% of its power charge for $1.24 "profit" will likely be opting out of such a system fairly prompt.

Electric cars can also charge from excess wind energy that would otherwise have to be turned off.

You dont "turn off" Wind Power generation!?
Anyone setting up Wind Turbines realises instantly its a highly irregular and unpredictable power generator.. so part and package of Wind Power is an Energy storage solution. There is no such thing as "excess Wind Power" in a correctly rolled out Wind Power package. Without storage, Wind Power is useless.

Also how were you proposing EV drivers harness spontanteous and random "excess wind power" anyhow!?

lomb

Mad Lad post a pic once you acquire your EV and let us know how your getting on with it. There is no way electric cars are more efficient. Do you heat you house with electricity or oil? Electricity is double the cost of oil per KWH due to transmission losses so even using a motor once taxed at the same rate there wouldnt be alot in it even on night rates.

lomb

lomb wrote: »

Mad Lad post a pic once you acquire your EV and let us know how your getting on with it. There is no way electric cars are more efficient. Do you heat you house with electricity or oil? Electricity is double the cost of oil per KWH due to transmission losses so even using a motor once taxed at the same rate there wouldnt be alot in it even on night rates.

LOL what ?

I heat my house with oil because of the cost of electricity, that in no way reflects the efficiency of the electricity network ?

Electric heating is 100% efficient !

If I had to pay the say price per kwh as they do in France then I'd probably be heating with electricity.

If I had an electric car It would cost me the least of anything to run on night rate leccy even day rate.

Matt Simis

Matt Simis wrote: »

This statement doesnt change the fact that EVs are currently "powered by fossil fuels" though does it? Also moving from a dispersed emissions model to a massively localised one also doesnt "erase" those emissions. They still exist and if anything, increased Power Station demand would mean anyone within 100km of a (fossil) power station would suffer decreased air quality, however this tidbit is never discussed as the pro-EV lobby schizophrenically calls Power Plants rubbish and inefficient at night yet somehow clean and efficient when they want to charge 200,000 EVs at once, at some random time. They cant be both.

No emissions are still there though not nearly as concentrated in towns and cities. I don't get my power from Money Point, Chances are I get my leccy from gas powered generators.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Im still waiting on someone to explain why we should care about this much vaunted "efficiency" (which is of EV "motors", not EV "cars") difference as from a performance standpoint, statically Li-Ion is grossly inferior in energy density. Only from a "social conscience" angle does this card have any playtime and thats largely irrelevant.

E.V's (cars) are much more efficient than your ice including charging and the battery, being grossly inferior in energy density has nothing to do with efficiency. Li-ion batteries are very efficient. 80-90%

Matt Simis wrote: »

This is terribly over simplified and at best, not currently even a "solution" to a problem that shouldnt exist, as we dont have a fleet of EVs so they arent playing any role at all in this.
Power Plants should not (and in the modern world argually do not) "waste huge amounts of fuel" at night. This mostly also only applies to Coal and mineral power plants anyhow, but this problem is addressed via:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage
If you store energy, you arent wasting it whenever demand drops. Nothing to do with EVs and should be mandated (and likely is, didnt check) globally anyway.

I can only go by what the ESb have told us about that, that ev's charging at night greatly improve efficiency of the generating stations.

This is a quote from the University of Chattatnooga and the only one I can find right now.

http://www.utc.edu/Research/CETE/electric.php

Quote
The primary focus of EV's is to reduce the amount of noxious gases that are released into the air due to the combustion process of an internal combustion engine. An electric vehicle produces zero emissions. Some critics of the EV industry will argue that a reduction of polluting gases has not taken place because of the emissions that are generated in the production of electricity at the power plants. Though it is true that power plants do produce some pollutants, the government has very strict regulations on power plant emissions. And since power plants produce an excess of power at night, when the demand is low, EV owners can use the excess power by recharging at night. This makes the power plants more efficient. End Quote.

Matt Simis wrote: »

As per that link, if we lived in a world with massive EV rollouts and the bulk of them where somehow always near fully charged, they could be used as a direct grid storage device. But compared to a problem specific solution, not a tier 1 option by any stretch. Also an EV driver that leaves their car on charge and comes back to find its sold 33% of its power charge for $1.24 "profit" will likely be opting out of such a system fairly prompt.

No Matt, you'll be fully in control of how much when and if you want to export any electricity in your car. For the likes of the tesla 84 kwh battery, you could afford to give away 20kwh of electricity for most days as you would probably use 20kwh max in a car like that on an 80 mile commute.

If the electricity company buy the electricity off you at the 18c per kwh day rate that you have to buy it off them means if you charge at night you pay 9 c per kwh and sell it at 18 c/kwh.

For the likes of the Leaf/Zoe/I3/Spark etc thair batteries are much smaller and people that still do 20-30 miles a day and less can easily give 5 kwh or more and more would be cycling the battery more than they aught to perhaps on such a small battery.

Spent ev batteries will also find uses for grid storage in the future, and the ESB are already looking into it.

Matt Simis wrote: »

You dont "turn off" Wind Power generation!?
Anyone setting up Wind Turbines realises instantly its a highly irregular and unpredictable power generator.. so part and package of Wind Power is an Energy storage solution. There is no such thing as "excess Wind Power" in a correctly rolled out Wind Power package. Without storage, Wind Power is useless.

Yes wind power is next to useless with the current system and yes it does have to be turned off at times of low demand, and there was controversy in the U.K over this as investors were still paid while not generating.

In Germany more and more coal is being used to back up these wind farms, believe it or not and why is this ? because they have to to compete with the cost of wind that all other fuels are too expensive.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Also how were you proposing EV drivers harness spontanteous and random "excess wind power" anyhow!?

That is up to the ESB, I don't know how the grid works, and how they control everything.

You can also install your own solar pv and wind to charge your e.v and some already do this in the U.K. it does work.

My plan eventually is if I ever move I will install wind and solar p.v as I will make the costs back over some years and of course charging an e.v would pay back in eve shorter time. Electric heating also and I'll have 3 phase power.

BailMeOut

Deleted User wrote: »

at 3.5 kw for the leaf MK 1 you'd pull 291.66 amps @ 12V -220 volts

the Leaf MK 1.5 6.5kw charger would pull 541.66 amps to convert to 220 volts.

So you'd need at least 600 amp hr worth of 12 v car batteries that's 7.2 kwh of battery or 15 car batteries.

The reason is lead acid batteries are good for cranking or a few hundred amps peak but for continuous use like charging you's need to pull no more than 1C that's capacity of the battery in ah x1 so 600 amp h batteries is 600 amp draw.

And that's 2 miles of range, so you see how bad lead acid batteries are ?

Thanks fore the clarification Mad Lad

So one more question, do these cars plug directly into a home power when at home or is there an additional charging device needed? The Nissan site talks about them installing something at your home. I always thought you can plug into any 220V outlet!

We could probably use an electric car as daily driving in and out of town, to and from kids school and activities which would easily fit into a daily charge. I do need to change a car right now so this could be a serious option and our town does have an esb charging point in a very convenient location.

BailMeOut

BailMeOut wrote: »

Thanks fore the clarification Mad Lad

So one more question, do these cars plug directly into a home power when at home or is there an additional charging device needed? The Nissan site talks about them installing something at your home. I always thought you can plug into any 220V outlet!

Usually charging at home means installation of an EVSE or charge station, it's a wall box installed outside or in the shed etc and I recommend getting one for the max your car is rated for, so that would be 3.5 kw for the Leaf MK I and 6.5kw for the MK 1.5

In theory you can plug into any plug, now this gets complicated and I'm not an Electrician so always consult your electrician !!!

In the U.K and probably everywhere except Ireland the leaf comes with what's called a portable EVSE, it consumes around 2kw or 8.3 amps good for charging at a friends house or staying in a B&B if they allow you plug into the shed. You can give them the €1.50 for the charge ! :-) the ESB thought that was too much for normal sockets in Ireland so Nissan would not allow this 300 Euro device be shipped with the car.

You can find them on ebay from time to time, but make sure you get one suitable for 240 volts.

This company http://www.jtmpower.ie/

make a portable evse i think it's rated at 1800 watts, which should still provide more than enough juice for a return trip home from work.

You can use it on a (fully extended) extension lead connected to any power socket your boss will allow you plug in.

The renault Zoe supports 3 phase mains charging and it's portable evse will allow you to plug into any 3 phase electric socket you see in most industrial businesses allowing a 0-80% charge in 30 mins. But you wouldn't need to do that unless you were in a hurry.

BailMeOut wrote: »

We could probably use an electric car as daily driving in and out of town, to and from kids school and activities which would easily fit into a daily charge. I do need to change a car right now so this could be a serious option and our town does have an esb charging point in a very convenient location.

Remember the 2011-2013 MK I leaf has an onboard 3.5 kw charger and the 2013 mk 1.5 6.6 kw charger.

So the MK 1 will recharge roughly 3 kwh per hour of energy or 34 miles. The mk 1.5 will replace 6 kwh per hour or 12 kwh every 2 hours, roughly 20 miles per hour for the MK 1.5. A 2 hr charge will replace roughly 41 miles for the MK 1.5

or you can get a 0-80 % fast charge in 30 mins on a fast charger.

The Renault Zoe can charge in less than an hour 0-100% from all public ESB non fast chargers and makes the best use of the charging infrastructure, but imo the leaf is a better e.v.

Pkiernan

This thread is an example of why we could do with a dedicated forum for EVs.

It started out as a question about the new Leaf but it wasn't long before the trolls got in with other BS.

A lot of muppets just can't get over the fact that the Leaf is an ideal commuter tool with a cost of ownership running at about 10% of traditional cars.

I just edited my last post, it got mixed up a bit ! :rolleyes:

Cienciano

The idea that wind energy somehow travels directly from the wind turbines through the national grid and directly into EV's is funny. Don't pretend they're powered by wind energy, they're not. On a given day a certain small percentage of energy is put into the national grid from wind turbines, that percentage is all you can claim. Back when we had snow a couple of years ago the wind generation was going at about .3% of capacity. So an even tinier percentage of total electricity production.
I think most people know this and couldn't really give a rats ass about emissions, the main reason to buy an EV is cheap running costs.

I and I don't know if you do know how the grid works and how they can transport the wind throughout the grid ?

But I never said wind power was the solution, I don't believe it is as even if it can meet 90% of our electricity means what about converting transport to electricity ? that's an awful amount of extra demand that will never be met with wind.

This is why If Thorium in L.F.T.R is successful that we build our own reactors and become energy independent or at least as much as we can be. It's the only nuclear I would consider.

Ireland needs to wake up and have a proper debate with professionals and not idiots in politics, we need to inform people of the benefits and that wind will not work to supply all our energy needs.

You need to accurately calculate our total electricity consumption and factor in future demand including the electrification of our transport.

Then you need to calculate how many wind turbines that will need and then see if it's rational to expect the entire island of Ireland to be just one big wind farm.

Corkbah

Deleted User wrote: »

I and I don't know if you do know how the grid works and how they can transport the wind throughout the grid ?

But I never said wind power was the solution, I don't believe it is as even if it can meet 90% of our electricity means what about converting transport to electricity ? that's an awful amount of extra demand that will never be met with wind.

This is why If Thorium in L.F.T.R is successful that we build our own reactors and become energy independent or at least as much as we can be. It's the only nuclear I would consider.

Ireland needs to wake up and have a proper debate with professionals and not idiots in politics, we need to inform people of the benefits and that wind will not work to supply all our energy needs.

You need to accurately calculate our total electricity consumption and factor in future demand including the electrification of our transport.

Then you need to calculate how many wind turbines that will need and then see if it's rational to expect the entire island of Ireland to be just one big wind farm.

Cant see that working ... not with the multiple NIMBY's in this country !!

NIMBY - not in my back yard, the people that protest and lobby against ANYTHING which may damage the environment to be put in their area, for example the many proposed "super dumps" ...they have to go somewhere but anywhere proposed has some group up in arms complaining.

Corkbah

Corkbah wrote: »

Cant see that working ... not with the multiple NIMBY's in this country !!

NIMBY - not in my back yard, the people that protest and lobby against ANYTHING which may damage the environment to be put in their area, for example the many proposed "super dumps" ...they have to go somewhere but anywhere proposed has some group up in arms complaining.

Well you see if people were properly educated to the facts, this is in part the responsibility of the Government but also on the individual to educate themselves.

I wonder how many people realise that they get more radiation form coal burning than from being inside a Nuclear power station ?

Yes there are genuine safety concerns about nuclear waste which shouldn't go ignored but l.F.T.R uses 99% of it's fuel and has less than 1% waste of current reactors, that also shouldn't go ignored.

1 Tonne of Thorium = 3.5 million tonnes of Coal and the emissions from coal are really bad.

Also people should know of the safety benefits of l.F.T.R such as it's low pressure and the fuel being in a liquid form and there is no possibility of a melt down.

It should go to public vote and let the people decide their energy faith, do they want a cheap stable plentiful source of electricity or do they want increased taxes to install wind turbines to make wind investors rich while we pay ever increasing costs for electricity ?

I don't believe we should tolerate the idiots in Government making our energy policies who think wind is the answer and giving the image that Ireland is Green and to hell with what's best for the country, it's only the image that matters.

creedp

Pkiernan wrote: »

This thread is an example of why we could do with a dedicated forum for EVs.

It started out as a question about the new Leaf but it wasn't long before the trolls got in with other BS.

A lot of muppets just can't get over the fact that the Leaf is an ideal commuter tool with a cost of ownership running at about 10% of traditional cars.

While I'm very sensitive at being called a muppet(!) I glanced at the new BMW EV article in yesterday's Sunday Times Motoring supplement and a BMW spokesperson responding to the comment about fossil fueled electricity said that presently the EV would have the equivalent of approx 80g CO2 emissions which puts it ballpark with efficient ice or hybrid cars.

By the way this muppet considers it appropriate to comment on calls for increased levies on one class of vehicles in order to further subsidise another class of vehicles which is already massively subsisdised compared to the former. If someone wants to buy one and benefit from the already subsidised cost of running an EV then go ahead and do so. That's not at issue here.

Creedp, that figure is meaningless, who's to say I wouldn't charge from my solar pv or wind system ?

What was that 80 g figure guesstimated from ?

I presume he gave that figure based on the German electric system.

It could be more in Ireland or less.

But again that is co2 as the Germans still do grasp the fact that there are far worse emissions than C02 the emissions not quoted are the emissions that will kill us and are actual pollutants in our atmosphere.

stimpson

Deleted User wrote: »

This is why If Thorium in L.F.T.R is successful that we build our own reactors and become energy independent or at least as much as we can be. It's the only nuclear I would consider.

Can we cut the crap about Thorium being the solution to all energy problems? LFTR is currently a pipe dream and is 40-70 years from production if they can solve all of the technical issues. You're never going to see it in your lifetime.

creedp

Deleted User wrote: »

Creedp, that figure is meaningless, who's to say I wouldn't charge from my solar pv or wind system ?

Its about as meanginless as claiming EV's are emission free in a country in which the majority of electricity is generated from fossil fuels and when combined with the losses associated with distribution via the grid is the reason why electricity is classed as a dirty fuel for the purposes of heating your home. It can't be dirty for one purpsoe and completely virtuous for the other.

Who is to say you would use pv or mind to charge your car? By the way why would you invest in PV/wind technology when you have a plug in your house which as you say yourself charges your car for peanuts. The only way you would consider this is if auto electricity was hit with huge fule duties - in the same fashion as you are advocating for ice users.

But again that is co2 as the Germans still do grasp the fact that there are far worse emissions than C02 the emissions not quoted are the emissions that will kill us and are actual pollutants in our atmosphere.

It doesn't stop them from using more and more dirty coal to produce electricity -

In Germany more and more coal is being used to back up these wind farms, believe it or not and why is this ? because they have to to compete with the cost of wind that all other fuels are too expensive.