New Nissan Leaf from €20,990

stimpson

wotswattage wrote: »

Even if a comparable i.c. car cost less than a Leaf, the weekly costs of fueling a Leaf would be much less. IIRC from either an ESB or Nissan ad on television a woman compared spending €70 on petrol to €8 on electricity to cover the same ground.

I was reading an artice that calculated the break even time for a Leaf is 8 years at 15,000 miles per anum.

Now I'd still ideally keep a second car as a backup for the maybe once every 2 months I'd out-range the Leaf. I'm talking a €1200 10+ year old car for such use.

So you'd have to tax, insure and service another car. There goes your savings.

Max Power1

stimpson wrote: »

I was reading an artice that calculated the break even time for a Leaf is 8 years at 15,000 miles per anum.



So you'd have to tax, insure and service another car. There goes your savings.

To play devil's advocate, the majority of the irish motoring population prefers to pay as much of the running costs up front as possible.
Hence, for example, why people were willing to pay more for the 08+ cars to get the cheaper tax, and why there is such a gulf between 07 and 08 cars in price. I've seen up to 10k difference between 07 and 08 models of the same car (with similar spec + mileage)

If I were not a car person and just wanted an "a to b" car and I had 25k to spend, I can see not much wrong with buying a leaf (especially at 15k - if that is landed including VRT etc cost- for a used UK model). For town trips and so on it meets the needs of the average motorist most of the time. The only thing that would stop me splashing out on one is the thought that in 5 years perhaps the EVs of that time will have much improved range and I will be making loan repayments on a dinosaur.

I would also (as a car person though) have a classic or two in the yard :P

stimpson

Max Power1 wrote: »

If I were not a car person and just wanted an "a to b" car and I had 25k to spend, I can see not much wrong with buying a leaf (especially at 15k - if that is landed including VRT etc cost- for a used UK model). For town trips and so on it meets the needs of the average motorist most of the time. The only thing that would stop me splashing out on one is the thought that in 5 years perhaps the EVs of that time will have much improved range and I will be making loan repayments on a dinosaur.

I would also (as a car person though) have a classic or two in the yard :P

To be honest, I'd consider one for my current commute if I could pick one up for 10K. But when I do the sums, it would take about 6 years for me to get through 10K in fuel and servicing on my current commute car which has zero depreciation, owes me nothing, has plenty of go and has decent range.

mickman

how long does it take to charge ?

stimpson

stimpson wrote: »

I was reading an artice that calculated the break even time for a Leaf is 8 years at 15,000 miles per anum.

Show me the break even period for a petrol or diesel car ?

Ill say this again,

Compared to the equivalent ICE car at the save cost as e.v the e.v would save the most money in the long run.

The break even period much less than an equivalent ice car.

So If I were paying 15 k for a car and I chose the leaf over the Prius @60 mpg it would save me 2500 a year in just fuel alone where a diesel car would not, or petrol. In a 40 mpg car you save much more.

If I had work charging I could do 20k miles a year easily just work mileage, or Luas charging etc, maybe fast charge.

If people can't do this then don't buy a leaf if the 65-70 winter miles/75-85 summer do not meet your needs (Gen 1 Leaf, I don't have sufficient data on the facelift model) miles range does not meet your needs, it can't be more simple than this ?

To maximise range then a car with thermal management would be best for winter range, if you have a work charger or fast charge then this isn't quiet necessary.

Uncertainties remain over the longevity of E.V batteries and if the Leaf battery fails early then people will have the image that ev's are useless, but this is not the case because most cars will have some different battery to that in the leaf. The Zoe use LGChem cells compared to the NEC cells in the leaf compared to the Panasonic cells in the Tesla etc, compared to Bosch in probably most German cars.

Tesla will even give you the option of buying a brand new battery for your Model S after the 8 year warranty, on the 84 kwh battery they offer an unlimited warranty, covering defects not capacity loss. Nissan and Renault and other car makers need to follow this route, if a 2nd hand buyer wants to buy a new battery he should be allowed.

A leaf will still be good long after the battery wears out.

I doubt a low mileage Leafer would have issues for at least 10 years in our climate as heat is the biggest killer of batteries, one of the reasons you never should try fast charge a hot battery.

stimpson

It was break even vs a similarly sized petrol car.

mickman

mickman wrote: »

how long does it take to charge ?

The Leaf Gen 1 takes 8 hrs from empty from your home charger, the Leaf facelift takes 4 hrs from empty.

The Zoe is limited by your house supply, 3 phase it can charge in 1 hour from empty. But from a 32 amp supply 4 hours.

The zoe makes the best use of the public charging infrastructure, but currently there are more fast chargers suitable for the Leaf/imev etc.

There are much more 20kw than fast chargers in total, so zoe will never charge in more than an hour, some new fast charge points also include fast ac.

Zoe's charger is built in capable of 44,000 watts no other EV in the world has a charger as advanced or as powerful on board as the one in Zoe, not even in the Tesla.

stimpson

stimpson wrote: »

It was break even vs a similarly sized petrol car.

Be that as it may, the pay back of the ev will take much less time at the same price because of the savings on tax, fuel, maintenance etc.

There isn't any pay back in a normal petrol or diesel car.

Sesshoumaru

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/motoring/nissan-drop-prices-in-push-for-leaf-sales-29390804.html

MAYBE there is life in the electric car yet. As something of an 'electric sceptic',I was surprised to get quite a few queries about Nissan's newly revised LEAF.

As we revealed last week, the LEAF has come way down in price – to €20,990 (including government incentive of €5,000). That puts it bang in the middle of Ford Focus/Toyota Corolla small-family car territory.

Nissan has made more than 100 changes and modifications ranging from major to minor – not to mention the price.

And the enquiries suggest there is an interest in electric cars if the price is right.

On the topic of the thread and as I mentioned about the US experience, I suspect the price is now near an attractive level for more people to adopt EV's.

Sesshoumaru

creedp wrote: »

I highlighted the NB word above. Bottom line is that in Ireland the majority of electricity is currently and for the foreseeable future will be generated from fossil fuels. I also find it strange that the Govt removed any grants available to install electric powered heating in houses and actually penalises people for installing heat pumps because electricity is considered a dirty source of fuel in terms of CO emissions. Why then should the Govt incentivise people to drive EVs? As I said before no problem with people driving EVs .. I would if it suited my needs which it currently doesn't (and if I could afford one!).

I wasn't trying to make the point that our electricity comes from some fuel source other than fossil. As I said, electricity can come from numerous sources. As we in Europe connect up our power grids, some of our electricity will come other sources like Nuclear. But again that doesn't really matter as I wasn't trying to make the point that our electricity is coming from renewables.

My point is that electricity can be generated from lot of different sources e.g. hydro, solar, coal, oil, gas, turf etc. That includes many different kinds of fossil fuels. Petrol/Diesel currently comes from one type of fossil fuel, oil.

stimpson

Deleted User wrote: »

Be that as it may, the pay back of the ev will take much less time at the same price because of the savings on tax, fuel, maintenance etc.

There isn't any pay back in a normal petrol or diesel car.

I don't think you understand the point, and I'm not sure I can be arsed trying to explain.

Max Power1

stimpson wrote: »

I don't think you understand the point, and I'm not sure I can be arsed trying to explain.

Tbh there is a point to what Mad Lad is saying.

I never said that EV was not a cost effective way of travelling. Indeed, if you have 25k already and are going to buy a new car for town trips, I think it would be the best idea to at least consider an EV.

You wouldnt *save* money, but you would save on the *opportunity cost* of purchasing a golf ICE (with fewer running costs). There is a trade off, which is the crappy range and lack of charging facilities. But for short trips with a home charger installed, I see that EVs have their uses. (even before the tech evolves to give better range, which is, for me, the one obstacle to buying an EV)

I think in 4-5 years time when I buy my next (main) car, perhaps instead of spending 15k on one car, I could spend 10k on a leaf and buy an e39 M5 for fun. Now there is the best of both worlds.

stimpson

Max Power1 wrote: »

Tbh there is a point to what Mad Lad is saying.

I never said that EV was not a cost effective way of travelling. Indeed, if you have 25k already and are going to buy a new car for town trips, I think it would be the best idea to at least consider an EV.

You wouldnt *save* money, but you would save on the *opportunity cost* of purchasing a golf ICE (with fewer running costs). There is a trade off, which is the crappy range and lack of charging facilities. But for short trips with a home charger installed, I see that EVs have their uses. (even before the tech evolves to give better range, which is, for me, the one obstacle to buying an EV)

I think in 4-5 years time when I buy my next (main) car, perhaps instead of spending 15k on one car, I could spend 10k on a leaf and buy an e39 M5 for fun. Now there is the best of both worlds.

Who are you and what have you done with MaxPower1?

Max Power1

stimpson wrote: »

Who are you and what have you done with MaxPower1?

What? haha.... I never said I was against Evs and can see they have their uses. Just that the majority do not suit Ev usage does not mean that there are some that it will suit (even with the piss poor range currently offered)

wotswattage

creedp wrote: »

The Q here though is would you expect the Govt to subsidise the early adoptor of these new smartphone or just allow people to migrate to the new phone when they decide the benefits of that move outweight its extra costs?

I'm just looking at it in terms of whether an ev is practical for someone who covers less than (lets say) 80 miles a day.

creedp

wotswattage wrote: »

I'm just looking at it in terms of whether an ev is practical for someone who covers less than (lets say) 80 miles a day.

Absolutely no problem with that and if current spec EVs suit a persons requirements then I see no reason why they wouldn't they buy one? My only issue is why would these buyers expect to be subsidised for making this decision. As I said already 7 seater MPVs suit my requirements at present and maybe I should expect the Govt to compensate me for the additional cost of buying these hateful yokes over and above the cost of buying/running a 5 seater vehicle.

wotswattage

stimpson wrote: »

I was reading an artice that calculated the break even time for a Leaf is 8 years at 15,000 miles per anum.

stimpson wrote: »

It was break even vs a similarly sized petrol car.

stimpson wrote: »

I don't think you understand the point, and I'm not sure I can be arsed trying to explain.

I don't understand what you mean by break even either??

A €20k i.c. car vs a €20k Leaf. The Leaf costs less to run. Where does break even come into it??

stimpson wrote: »

There goes your savings.

What savings?
There go your possible savings on petrol. (See what I did there, I made an assumption on behalf of another poster to try re-enforce my point. The oldest form of wit online)

wotswattage

creedp wrote: »

Absolutely no problem with that and if current spec EVs suit a persons requirements then I see no reason why they wouldn't they buy one? My only issue is why would these buyers expect to be subsidised for making this decision. As I said already 7 seater MPVs suit my requirements at present and maybe I should expect the Govt to compensate me for the additional cost of buying these hateful yokes over and above the cost of buying/running a 5 seater vehicle.

To be honest I'm not so happy with the government subsidising the cost. Is it a tax break or a 'cheque to nissan' type thing? I don't know, I'm only asking...
But there is a reduction, and that's the reality we are debating at the moment.

I think the reason Irish people just have a thing in their head about range. Neighbors of mine who are very light car users, just bought a 131 Astra, and a few months ago and when I suggested looking at a Leaf they were horrified at the range issue. I asked 'when was the last time you drove 80+ miles??'.

The answer: 'But sure what if I needed to?!?'
'What if you needed to tonight after 10pm and you have your usual 1/4 full tank?'

wotswattage

wotswattage wrote: »

To be honest I'm not so happy with the government subsidising the cost. Is it a tax break or a 'cheque to nissan' type thing? I don't know, I'm only asking...
But there is a reduction, and that's the reality we are debating at the moment.

I think the reason Irish people just have a thing in their head about range. Neighbors of mine who are very light car users, just bought a 131 Astra, and a few months ago and when I suggested looking at a Leaf they were horrified at the range issue. I asked 'when was the last time you drove 80+ miles??'.

The answer: 'But sure what if I needed to?!?'
'What if you needed to tonight after 10pm and you have your usual 1/4 full tank?'

Then you call a taxi , still cheaper in the long run for the what if ?

The what if could include running out of petrol, battery flat, car won't start etc.

If I come home with 30% charge left it would take less than 3 hrs for a full charge with the facelift with 6kw charger (option)

Yes in a way the Grant subsidises Nissan, and all ev car makers which maybe help to artificially inflate the cost of the cars in the first place ? But it's not costing a fortune now anyway.

They can afford to buy a new car and pay for fuel because they don't do a lot of miles so there is no incentive to change to electric, there won't be unless there is some European policy or Government policy change.

Your neighbours want a car and the Astra does the job, that's all they know and are used to so why would they change unless they had to ?

That's the same story all over the world, why change, I can afford to put fuel in the car, it does what I want.

The EV enthusiasts, gadget lovers, environmentalist etc are into the technology and so the incentive is there and maybe the higher mileage user.

But really why incentive is there for someone who pays up to 30 a week in petrol or diesel ?

wotswattage

Deleted User wrote: »

Your neighbours want a car and the Astra does the job, that's all they know and are used to so why would they change unless they had to ?

But the reason they won't get an ev is because of the (irrelevant) range issue. They think an ev cant do the job!

Deleted User wrote: »

The EV enthusiasts, gadget lovers, environmentalist etc are into the technology and so the incentive is there and maybe the higher mileage user.

Don't get me wrong, I'm into all of the above, but those reasons are pushing ev's back into a niche...
I think car companies, governments, and consumers need to start thinking in terms of petrol, diesel, electric, rather than i.c. and electric as a separate entity.

wotswattage

wotswattage wrote: »

But the reason they won't get an ev is because of the (irrelevant) range issue. They think an ev cant do the job!

Yes they think it's not up to the job and sure and they don't care if it is or not because they can still afford petrol and diesel so why would they bother to think about it ? sure they think about the range issue, but if they knew about the charging infrastructure already in place, or about fast charging. They might think it will take 10 hours to charge it up. They could probably say, maybe it would work ?

A lot of people have not got a clue about the charging or public chargers or fast charging and find it too complicated to think about it when I try explain.

Most people that know anything about the Nissan Leaf will tell you that it takes 8 hours to charge from empty , but many people were not even aware about it's fast charge capability because they listen to so much uneducated waffle about electric cars and they think all electric cars are the same. And you can be sure they are not aware of the facelift that can charge in half the time or the Zoe 1 hour form any ESB charge point.

Sad as it is to say but Americans always get far better deals with cars and electric cars are no different, you can get a new Toyota Rav 4 EV in the U.S 40kw battery good for a real 120-140 miles for around 27,500 a top of the spec facelift Leaf in Ireland.

The Leaf can be leased for less than 200 Euro's PM.

We really get it up the Ass in Europe !!!

creedp

Deleted User wrote: »

Sad as it is to say but Americans always get far better deals with cars and electric cars are no different, you can get a new Toyota Rav 4 EV in the U.S 40kw battery good for a real 120-140 miles for around 27,500 a top of the spec facelift Leaf in Ireland.

The Leaf can be leased for less than 200 Euro's PM.

We really get it up the Ass in Europe !!!

But isn't this the point, if you think EV owners are getting it up the ass why do you think ICE owners begrudge further tax breaks going to EV owners when they are already massively subsidised by being able to use fuel that dosen't attract massive duties. If as you say people are ignorant of the advantages of EV then further cost subsidisation won't change their mind ... education will .. so spend money on educating people on the merits of EV and let them make up their own minds. Further subsidies will simply make it cheaper for people who already are aware of these benefits ... which in my opiniuon is a waste of scarce resources.

creedp

creedp wrote: »

But isn't this the point, if you think EV owners are getting it up the ass why do you think ICE owners begrudge further tax breaks going to EV owners when they are already massively subsidised by being able to use fuel that dosen't attract massive duties.

Are you talking about here of the U.S ? in the U.S the ICE industry has received many billions in subsidies over several decades.

The U.S car makers got huge government subsidies to make bigger SUVs

So at least over in the U.S it will be many many years before e.v's reach the level of subsidies car makers got for ice cars.

In Ireland you have the choice, buy the leaf between 20,990 -27,500 or a Golf TDI or equivalent. You got the choice if you avail of the grant for the EV and EVSE install at your house.

Why do we have to subsidise diesel drivers by paying 710 Euro's a year to tax our 13 year old petrol CRV So diesel car owners can drive the filthiest of cars on our roads and benefit from paying much less road tax ?

Why should the Petrol owner who drives 5-10K miles a year Subsidise the Diesel owner who pollutes much more by driving 20-50K miles a year ? And also benefits from cheaper fuel ?

Why should the Farmer get huge subsidies and assistance when their business is doing poorly while another business owner gets nothing ?

creedp wrote: »

If as you say people are ignorant of the advantages of EV then further cost subsidisation won't change their mind ... education will .. so spend money on educating people on the merits of EV and let them make up their own minds. Further subsidies will simply make it cheaper for people who already are aware of these benefits ... which in my opiniuon is a waste of scarce resources.

You're right, to a point, further cost subsidising won't change peoples minds unless driving a ice car starts to hurt them financially, so unless taxes are raised on new diesel cars, the most polluting in favour of 0 emissions (while driving) I don't think people will change. Leave the tax the way it is but change it for new cars, a lot of people suddenly bought diesel cars to benefit from the cheap road tax and reduced vrt to drive to the shops and schools all for the sake of saving a few hundred after spending many thousands, if diesel is taxed a lot higher and road tax/vrt increased it might make people switch to electric.

Until such time as driving an ice car is unaffordable I can't see mass transition to electric as the ice car does what people want it to do.

Once electric cars become cheap 2nd hand I'm talking 3-5 k then the people who struggle to keep petrol in their cars can benefit tremendously from the super cheap running costs of an electric car.

Regarding education, the best education in the world will not make people buy cars they don't want to buy because there is no incentive.

Money is always the greatest driver of everything and when and if the costs of running an ice become too high then people will change to electric.

Matt Simis

Lets talk about an interesting EV for a change (:p ): Tesla Model S Euro launch?


http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/478900/20130614/tesla-model-s-dashboard-screen-computer-hands.htm
Near £40k mentioned as a potential price?
RHD later in year, around time of Asia orders?


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-23/next-on-tesla-s-to-do-list-conquer-europe-with-electric-cars.html

Since the month began, Tesla posted its first quarterly profit, upped its delivery target for the Model S, and won a rave review from Consumer Reports magazine. The enthusiasm from investors that drove Tesla stock up 174 percent this year allowed the carmaker to raise $1 billion in share and debt sales. That shrewd move enabled Tesla to pay off loans from the U.S. Energy Department nine years early.

Eliminating the loan "gives us some additional operating flexibility and agility," Musk told me on the phone yesterday. Free from its obligation to the U.S. government, Tesla is investing in designing a more affordable car, which should be especially attractive to international markets. That vehicle will be half the price of the $69,900 Model S and available in three to four years, Musk said in the interview on Bloomberg West.
"That's really the car I wanted to create from the beginning: A compelling, affordable car that has a range of at least 200 miles," Musk said.

Unlike the Leaf and Zoe, the Model S is an EV from an EV company and made to compete with predominately ICE competitors, its much, much better equipped to do so. What we call EVs today (from everyone else) are little more than skunkworks toys thrown out by behemoth corporations which fail to reach accepted minimum performance metrics established over the last 50years.

The wonderful extortionate taxes will mean a price tag in Ireland of at least 56,000 Euro's and I bet that's for the 60kwh battery without supercharging.

The middle of the range model 84 kwh battery inc supercharging = 56,000 Eure before import duty and VAT, so add 21.5% vat alone and it goes up to 68,000 -dealer cuts too by the way so say 75,000 Euro's ?

The top of the range 0-62 4.5 seconds = 87,000 USD = 67,330 Euro's + vat =82,668 Euro's that's before import duty, stealer fees etc,

The vat really is a disgrace!

Maybe you could pick up the 85 kwh mid range in 4 years for 35,000 ?

wotswattage

Matt Simis wrote: »

Unlike the Leaf and Zoe, the Model S is an EV from an EV company and made to compete with predominately ICE competitors, its much, much better equipped to do so. What we call EVs today (from everyone else) are little more than skunkworks toys thrown out by behemoth corporations which fail to reach accepted minimum performance metrics established over the last 50years.

Thats a very valid point about Tesla being a 100% ev producer so better positioned to take on the market, though I'll take the rest with a pinch of salt. I think skunkwork toys is maybe being a bit cynical there They are, but they are a lot more too!

Don't forget the Model X in 2014 !

Did you know that Tesla is now worth more than Fiat ?

In all fairness to Nissan and Renault, if they were to make a car costing the same as the Tesla they could also make a 250 mile range car.

Nissan and renault are about making affordable electric cars.