Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

Nwm2

Triathlon Ireland wrote: »

Hi All,

You may have spotted them already but we have a few videos from the Hell of the West race on our Youtube and vimeo sites.
Highlights - https://vimeo.com/69426668
Gavin - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTVSPxBmcLE
Anna - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D33yKMS50J4

With regard to drafting we have a short post on www.triathlonireland.com about this and will be asking MO's to be a little firmer in applying the drafting rules. http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=1334

As always appreciate any feedback so grab us at a race, drop us an email or volunteer to be a technical official or motor bike marshal.

Thanks,
Triathlon Ireland

First off, thanks a lot for responding here, and for the post on the site.

You hint that at least some of the problem is awareness and part of the solution is more emphasis on this at race briefings etc. With respect, I think most of the people I saw cheating at Kilkee and Athy were pretty au fait with the rules and no amount of harping on about it would have made a difference.

I think MOs need to be a LOT firmer, not a little firmer.

I also think that if you are not out on the course competing you may not have any idea how bad it is out there.

One key question from me: can the default 2min time penalty be increased to a default 10min or something? Is it ITU rules or TI rules or RD rules that have jurisdiction?

At the bigger races (Athy and Kilkee for me this year) it is a huge problem. This is a far, far bigger issue in our sport than PEDs in my opinion.

A few races with lots of big penalties and DQs and this problem will go away quickly.

gilleek2

conradk wrote: »

Really to sort this out, pressure needs to be brought to bear on TI to take drafting/cheating more seriously.
- Emails to administrator@triathlonireland.com might be a good place to start?
- A motion at the TI AGM to increase penalties for drafting and focus more resources towards draft marshals might also be a medium term initiative.

We all know who the drafters are as they appear to do it race after race. Good to see penalties handed out at Kilkee. We need more of this.

Drafting is infuriating to the majority of people (of all abilities) who train hard and honestly and play by the rules.

I couldn't count the number of times I've had people openly tell me that they got a good draft in a race, they don't seem too put off when I tell them baldly to their faces that drafting is cheating.

What would be wrong with pulling people in at the side of the road at the next safe place. That would be a pretty powerful visual deterrant to others while not going as far as openly calling someone a cheat on the ould interweb. It would also effectively be more than a 2 minute penalty as it would disrupt the offenders rhythm.

kal7

+1 for gilleek2 last post

Stop the biggest peleton on the course and let them off one by one, as per the rules, would mean a huge penalty for being a the back of a group.

This would be a great visual.

I believe many of the groups formed because as you passed a group you hit the wind and dropped back to them again.

Therefore as athletes we need to make a bigger effort to stay separated properly.

Great race overall. Many trying to be good on busy course.

It is those plainly going, up and over, that annoy me most.

topper75

kal7 wrote: »

Stop the biggest peleton on the course and let them off one by one

Aye, but let them off in what order? Everyone will tell you they were at the front when it formed.

bryangiggsy

Blatant drafting is obvious ... Motorbikes can sit right back and see it a few hundred metres away ... No warnings ... No and penalty. Was disappointing to only see 6 penalties on the penalty board. It wud be a diff story if there was 30 no's on the penalty board. Have been thinking about it and narrow roads tough bike course with wind and hills with 350 people in each wave there is going to be issues with drafting and peletons ... Only solution in my opinion is more waves.

longshank

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Blatant drafting is obvious ... Motorbikes can sit right back and see it a few hundred metres away ... No warnings ... No and penalty. Was disappointing to only see 6 penalties on the penalty board. It wud be a diff story if there was 30 no's on the penalty board. Have been thinking about it and narrow roads tough bike course with wind and hills with 350 people in each wave there is going to be issues with drafting and peletons ... Only solution in my opinion is more waves.

The two races being mentioned are HOW and Athy and what they have in common is too many competitors on the bike course. 700 competitors x10m = 7km.
There should be a limit on numbers in a wave and a minimum time gap between waves. Organisers crowding people on the bike course is contributing to the problem.

gilleek2

longshank wrote: »

The two races being mentioned are HOW and Athy and what they have in common is too many competitors on the bike course. 700 competitors x10m = 7km.
There should be a limit on numbers in a wave and a minimum time gap between waves. Organisers crowding people on the bike course is contributing to the problem.

Defo should be smaller waves. 740 starting in 2 waves is crazy knowing that it was a draftfest last year. Motorbike officials could easily see if anyone was trying not to draft if they hung back before swooping for the kill. People seen sharing the work should be DQ'd immediately.

Nwm2

gilleek2 wrote: »

Defo should be smaller waves. 740 starting in 2 waves is crazy knowing that it was a draftfest last year. Motorbike officials could easily see if anyone was trying not to draft if they hung back before swooping for the kill. People seen sharing the work should be DQ'd immediately.

There is loads of waves in Athy, but it's still a problem. But less than Kilkee on Saturday sure.

One thing specific to Kilkee is that I believe the RDs are trying to prevent cyclists going both ways through the tight bridge in Doonbeg - risk of head on collision. This limits the amount of waves I believe.

ShineyShiney

Couldnt the race chip be used with gps to identify drafting

longshank

Nwm2 wrote: »

There is loads of waves in Athy, but it's still a problem. But less than Kilkee on Saturday sure.

One thing specific to Kilkee is that I believe the RDs are trying to prevent cyclists going both ways through the tight bridge in Doonbeg - risk of head on collision. This limits the amount of waves I believe.

Loads of waves is one thing but the time gap between also has to be considered.
Some mathematician could surely come up with a formula for size of a wave x no. of waves + time gap to give enough space on bike course to prevent overcrowding?

mossym

longshank wrote: »

Loads of waves is one thing but the time gap between also has to be considered.
Some mathematician could surely come up with a formula for size of a wave x no. of waves + time gap to give enough space on bike course to prevent overcrowding?

twas bad enough going off at 6pm at athy this year. any bigger gap between waves and people would have to remove tri bars to fit lights for the bike legs.

it's fine saying bigger gaps, but the longer race then has to be considered, longer road distruptions, marshalls having to stay on course for hours more.


tougher policing seems a better option. in athy, i went through lots of the ride without seeing anyone, then passed groups. there was lots of room for them to avoid drafting if they wanted

hardCopy

Nwm2 wrote: »

There is loads of waves in Athy, but it's still a problem. But less than Kilkee on Saturday sure.

One thing specific to Kilkee is that I believe the RDs are trying to prevent cyclists going both ways through the tight bridge in Doonbeg - risk of head on collision. This limits the amount of waves I believe.

I think part of the problem in Athy is down to the way the waves are broken up. Dividing waves by age group means you have some very fast cyclists working their way through the weaker members of the earlier wave. This surely contributes to the bunching.

tunney

longshank wrote: »

Loads of waves is one thing but the time gap between also has to be considered.
Some mathematician could surely come up with a formula for size of a wave x no. of waves + time gap to give enough space on bike course to prevent overcrowding?

John Cunniffe did it a few years ago for TI.

Wackoy2k

elvis jones wrote: »

Nuff said

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173232721/in/set-72157634404228921

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173092013/in/set-72157634404228921

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaniepower/9173088061/in/set-72157634404228921

I wasn't aware there was anyone drafting behind me and I sure as hell wasn't drafting at any point and I am in one of those pics.

But I did see a lot of it going on. Was passed by a number of TT Bikes at one stage and they were rolling.

Mr.Fred

Nwm2 wrote: »

There is loads of waves in Athy, but it's still a problem. But less than Kilkee on Saturday sure.

One thing specific to Kilkee is that I believe the RDs are trying to prevent cyclists going both ways through the tight bridge in Doonbeg - risk of head on collision. This limits the amount of waves I believe.

There were far to many entrants in Athy for a 1 day event. I think the $$$ skewed their perspective to be honest and they crammed in as many as they thought possible.

Hopefully it'll return to a 2 day event if the up take is similar next year.

Also as previously stated drafting was rampant but there was a continuous line with the number of competitors, some however used this to their advantage.

Nwm2

Wackoy2k wrote: »

I wasn't aware there was anyone drafting behind me and I sure as hell wasn't drafting at any point and I am in one of those pics.

But I did see a lot of it going on. Was passed by a number of TT Bikes at one stage and they were rolling.

I think those pics are at the top of the hill. Personally, I didn't have any problem with some bunching going up the hill. It was inevitable, and no benefit to be gained really.

I agree with pics don't give the context of what is going on in most cases, and particularly those pics don't prove anything (you have 15 secs to get out of a draft zone). Although a picture of a peleton on the flat would be clear cut.

Mr.Fred

Wackoy2k wrote: »

I wasn't aware there was anyone drafting behind me and I sure as hell wasn't drafting at any point and I am in one of those pics.

But I did see a lot of it going on. Was passed by a number of TT Bikes at one stage and they were rolling.

I think pictures like the ones posted don't really tell a true tale. The tail rider may well be dropping back it certainly looks like it in one pic with one guy looking to his left.

peter kern

My solution for drafting ;-)

https://www.extrawheelshop.com/en/bicycle-trailer-solo.html

All we have to do extend the distance of the wheel from the frame ;-)

its also a great solution for those that like bigger bento boxes when doing Ironman....


Ps i realise we might have to reorganice transition aereas a bit

rowr

Carry a small bottle of piss and squirt it at anyone that hugs your wheel. Problem solved. Culprits can then be identified at finish line .

No need to get high tec about things

longshank

mossym wrote: »

twas bad enough going off at 6pm at athy this year. any bigger gap between waves and people would have to remove tri bars to fit lights for the bike legs.

it's fine saying bigger gaps, but the longer race then has to be considered, longer road distruptions, marshalls having to stay on course for hours more.


tougher policing seems a better option. in athy, i went through lots of the ride without seeing anyone, then passed groups. there was lots of room for them to avoid drafting if they wanted

maybe the numbers in the race should be limited if that's the case.
prevention is always better than cure. don't give cheats the opportunity to draft and if they do it's obvious and the officials can pick it up as they have less cyclists to watch.
Actually it probably requires all of the measures mentioned -more space on course/ harsher punishment/ name and shame/ clear anti-drafting campaign/ more marshals etc etc.

Oryx

longshank wrote: »

maybe the numbers in the race should be limited if that's the case.
prevention is always better than cure. don't give cheats the opportunity to draft and if they do it's obvious and the officials can pick it up as they have less cyclists to watch.
Actually it probably requires all of the measures mentioned -more space on course/harsher punishment/ name and shame/ clear anti-drafting campaign/ more marshals etc etc.

If its the top guys and gals that are doing it, and benefiting from it, reducing numbers overall won't fix a thing. You can only draft with people of similar ability so its not numbers as such, its knowing you won't get caught that lets it happen.

Two strikes = dq, actively enforced, might make cheaters think.

Shedite27

longshank wrote: »

maybe the numbers in the race should be limited if that's the case.

Would you pay a higher entrance fee to know people have less opportunity to draft?

Oryx wrote: »

If its the top guys and gals that are doing it, and benefiting from it, reducing numbers overall won't fix a thing. You can only draft with people of similar ability so its not numbers as such, its knowing you won't get caught that lets it happen.

Exactly, the top guys are still going to draft.

IMO, as someone who is in the top 20% finishing time in most races I enter, but never competing for prizes, I think it's foolish to draft, you're only fooling yourself. I'm only competing against myself, trying to beat PB's etc. Are my friends really going to be impressed if I come home on a Sunday and tell them I got finished in 2hr22 rather than 2hr28? What on earth is the point?

Mr.Fred

Shedite27 wrote: »

Would you pay a higher entrance fee to know people have less opportunity to draft?

Ah C'mon I'm not sure if you were at Athy it was bordering on the ridiculous. Waves were still starting at 17.30 and there entry wasn't cheap.

I find myself looking for the smaller and better run events these days instead of the money spinners.

I should add I'm no where near the front runners and compete against myself so I'd only be cheating myself drafting.

tunney

Ten years ago the fields were tiny in comparison, my first Kilkee had just over 200 in it. Guess what - there was drafting there too. There is always drafting when the rules are not enforced and when everyone knows that they are not.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

rowr wrote: »

Carry a small bottle of piss and squirt it at anyone that hugs your wheel. Problem solved. Culprits can then be identified at finish line .

No need to get high tec about things

I found this worked well in my first HIM, not that i used a bottle!! He soon backed off my wheel with a mouthful of custom made iso

elvis jones

Mr.Fred wrote: »

There were far to many entrants in Athy for a 1 day event. I think the $$$ skewed their perspective to be honest and they crammed in as many as they thought possible.

Hopefully it'll return to a 2 day event if the up take is similar next year.

Also as previously stated drafting was rampant but there was a continuous line with the number of competitors, some however used this to their advantage.

No it will be one day event again.

elvis jones

tunney wrote: »

Ten years ago the fields were tiny in comparison, my first Kilkee had just over 200 in it. Guess what - there was drafting there too. There is always drafting when the rules are not enforced and when everyone knows that they are not.

It boils down to the above, its the same in every sport. People will always try to get away with rules football, hurling, rugby they are all the same.

Shedite27

elvis jones wrote: »

It boils down to the above, its the same in every sport. People will always try to get away with rules football, hurling, rugby they are all the same.

True.

A coach of mine once told me (not mentioning which sport), not to worry about giving away frees, if you're not commiting fouls you're not getting close enough to the letter of the law.

Of course the top guys are going to keep drafting until they're pulled up on it (and will continue to do so unless the penalties are increased to make it not worth their while).

Also, the idea that a 2min penalty should be the same regardless of distance makes no sense - should be more for a HIM than an Olympic or sprint.

SlowMe

As an interesting aside - to me at least - I came across some commentary yesterday in the context of the TDF TTT. In a drafting situation obviously the drafter gets a substantial advantage but what I didn't know was that the lead cyclist also gets a benefit. Approx 10-20 watts possibly more depending on conditions. Not massive but an advantage all the same. It arises from the drafting rider effectively 'managing' the turbulence behind the lead rider - chaotic turbulence has a measurable drag effect

El Director

SlowMe wrote: »

As an interesting aside - to me at least - I came across some commentary yesterday in the context of the TDF TTT. In a drafting situation obviously the drafter gets a substantial advantage but what I didn't know was that the lead cyclist also gets a benefit. Approx 10-20 watts possibly more depending on conditions. Not massive but an advantage all the same. It arises from the drafting rider effectively 'managing' the turbulence behind the lead rider - chaotic turbulence has a measurable drag effect

Yip....'dirty air' can have an effect and a rider on your back wheel can have the effect of smoothing it out. Interesting stuff alright