Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

Bambaata

Its going to be very hard to police with marshalls. You'd really need about 15-20 bike officials which i cant see happening as i doubt they have those kind of resources. Thats why i think the punishment has to outweigh the reward so much that nobody dares do it. You would need a few more marshals on bikes though and maybe front load it for a few races to get it going.

Next time i identify drafters im calling them out after the race. I didnt have the bottle to do it at Roses Point but im sick of hearing the likes of this and its only by challenging them will anything happen. Id call on others who spot it to also approach these a$$holes after races. I know we cant name people here so confronting them is the only real option. I do it while im on the course but will also do it afterwards now too.

What's the bets i get done for drafting at my next race now :P

hypersonic

there are many solutions, but not enough people in the sport care about it being fair. but when you can buy time with an expensive bike, it's hard for a lot of people to get their knickers in a knot about drafting.

also triathlon, like marathon running is seen by many as a sport where you race yourself. Provided you don't brake your own rules, you can be happy if you improve your time.

NorthernRaider

"when you can buy time with an expensive bike, it's hard for a lot of people to get their knickers in a knot about drafting."

Fair point! In an ideal world, technology would be neutral (and gels banned!). However, in practice, that is pretty much impossible, while it should be said that with a bit of ingenuity (and hard work on flexibility) a large part of the benefits of a super-duper bike can be replicated by a humble road bike.

"also triathlon, like marathon running is seen by many as a sport where you race yourself. Provided you don't brake your own rules, you can be happy if you improve your time."

Strictly speaking, this is valid. Nonetheless, you're fooling yourself if your time this occasion is better than last because this time you tucked yourself in behind a strong cyclist. But, maybe some people want to fool themselves?

daithiK1

fair play to Bill re. post

woody1

hypersonic wrote: »

Provided you don't brake your own rules, you can be happy if you improve your time.

its cheating according to the rules of the sport your competing in.. so no you cant be happy .. but different strokes i guess.. i overtook a tractor and trailer yesterday because i was gonna get stuck behind it and i couldve got a nice easy tow off it at 30 something km an hour for a good 2 or 3 km.. but that didnt seem right to me and i shot by it on the outside... i dunno if that constitutes dangerous cycling but id rather get done for that than get the draft off the tractor... if i was 2 minutes faster because of that it wouldnt be a valid time to me
i dont have a mad carbon superbike , but fair play to those that do, if i had the cash id have one, i get great satisfaction from slowly taking down my own times and getting closer to those fellas..but i prefer to do it fairly..

Nwm2

Maybe we need to take things into our own hands, if TI and Race Directors can't or won't sort it out.

hypersonic

where there's a will there's a way, so if triathletes want it fixed it will be sorted. but triathletes are very apathetic about it.
Until that changes I suspect we'll have to just suck it up and set our own standards and be happy with our own results.

zico10

Nwm2 wrote: »

Maybe we need to take things into our own hands, if TI and Race Directors can't or won't sort it out.

What are you suggesting?

Bambaata

Just call them out after races. If i see anyone drafting and i can identify them I'll approach them afterwards and ask them politely why they were wheel sucking!

NorthernRaider

Bambaata wrote: »

Just call them out after races. If i see anyone drafting and i can identify them I'll approach them afterwards and ask them politely why they were wheel sucking!

That's ballsy! What has been the general reaction?

P2C

I raced yesterday and was off the bike in the top 10. I have been racing for twenty years and never incurred a penalty. What happened yesterday was no different to what I have witnessed at any national series race this year. In fact rosses point had larger groups. Mullagmore was blatant. i ended up biking kilkee for 30k on my own looking at a group in the top 15 ahead of me. In Liam ball a small pack formed in the top few trying to pace of first place. The one thing as a rider I only see this stuff split second as I pass. I am a TO and a ref so I know the rules

Yesterdays race dynamic was different in a few ways. 285 people in the one wave, no outstanding swimmers, glass conditions on the lake, 1 minute separated the top 50 competitors out of the water. A massive group hitting the bike at the same time. A lot of fellas with full aero set up hitting the bike at the same time. Make no mistake about it the worst drafting took place on the outward leg as 5/6 fast bikers were moving thought some of the faster swimmers/weaker bikers. Thats when there was a peloton that billy referred to I think. Just after the turnaround he would of met the large drafting group. That group split up slightly after the turnaround

I absolutely f....ked a few fellas out of it for blatant drafting. I mean jumping from the inside line onto the wheel of a passing cyclist. You know who you are because the guilty look on your faces said it all. None of these boys with the exception of 1 made the top 10 of the bike.

There was one clear cyclist out front and another in chase. Two other really fast bikers moved swiftly thru a pack of bikers and around 11 k passed the 2nd biker. At around 12 k to 20 k that group and the group behind had a motor bike marshal right behind them. They biked the last 8 k lined out. They got a gap to the next group. there was about 50 meters between riders 2/3/4 paceline and the riders 5/6/7. I was approx rider 8 probably 20 meters behind. It looked like wheel sucking in the 5/6/7 group and one rider remonstrated with the MO. The average speeds were very high on the way back. The pulse lad, very good athlete was in the 5/6/7 group was always at the front.

There was no peloton in the top 10 the reason it all reformed was because of a blockage on the road. Most of the guys were in lipping there shoes way to early and I was able to close a 50m gap while crossing the bridge and on the way thru the neutral zone.

If the group 2/3/4 were drafting it was done for maximum 8k. It looked like a pace line and there were 3 very good bikers in that group. I could not see clearly so I won't make any assumptions but a MO sat on that group for 3k and never got involved.

In the group 5/6/7 looked like drafting was going on because of the pulse lad was remonstrating with the marshal. Once the marshal pulled up they were riding a pace line after that.

It's very annoying for someone to pop a photo on Facebook and basically call everyone except the first rider cheats. Stating based on previous times and performances that eyebrows should be raised. I think those comments and others are not at all helpful. The top 3 on the podium are all multiple race winners and have had podiums at national level races including championships. I don't think riders 2/3/4 really need to draft

I think race organisers/ TI need to develop a system that uniquely grade athletes in relation to their swim/ finish times from grade 1 to 10 and split grade up into different heats. The maximum wave ratio was ignored yesterday the guidelines suggest much smaller waves

johnruns

I raced the Twoprovinces on sat it was an out and back bike course so I was able to see the drafting and if I was Mccormack or Horan Id be rightly pissed off with the result, at the 14k point I saw 3guys in the top five working together and then a group of 8 from about 7th to 15th all working together and a motorbike offical drove by and did nothing it was a farce:mad:

hardCopy

Swinford seemed a lot better than other races I've been at this year. I had a slow T1 and ended up passing people for most of the cycle.

I didn't see any big packs or trains but did spot two instances.

I came across one group of three riders in a bunch taking up the whole hard shoulder of the N5 at about 65-70KM. The rider in front of me got stuck trying to overtake and ended up with a bunch of 4, by the time I caught them I ended up having to pass them in the main driving lane and attack up a hill. (I only thought about it afterwards but they may have just been out for a Sunday spin on the N5, I can't remember noticing numbers on their backs)

I saw a male and female pair who seemed to be doing up and overs at about 80KM a Motorbike Offical rolled up alongside and told them to separate, they did eventually separate after some correspondence between the male cyclist and the MO, as soon as the MO drove off your man drops back to let his friend back onto his wheel. When we came to the crest of the next hill the MO was pulled in at the side of the road watching them come up the hill, the girl ended up dropping him on the next hill after that.

He tried to draft off me after I passed him. Then he tried to overtake me without looking over his shoulder and nearly got creamed by a car.

EDIT: I did't get his number but based on the bike splits and where I passed him, it appears he was given a 5 minute penalty, fair play to the MO.

Bambaata

NorthernRaider wrote: »

That's ballsy! What has been the general reaction?

Sorry i might not have been too clear, i didnt at Rosses Point but will in future. I did have a word with the moto official at Rosses Point as he passed me as i was sitting up for a few k waiting on a marshal to sort them as the few times i surged past them they worked together to come around me and i am not going to draft no matter what.

I do generally make my feelings very well known when on the course and have fcuked out a good few guys a good few times. They never respond which shows they knew exactly what they were at.

I do agree that picture is misleading, groups will come together coming into transition but there isnt really an advantage being at at that point as most would be soft pedalling/freewheeling.

couerdelion

Just in case there's still a belief that this issue isn't being taken seriously, TI have sent around another email to officials highlighting that drafting is an issue at races.

They have asked TO's to give a quick demo of the drafting zone at the race briefing and for MO's to be less lenient which I think is the right thing to do.

There should be no excuses that people don't know the correct distance or didn't know they couldn't draft.

tunney

couerdelion wrote: »

Just in case there's still a belief that this issue isn't being taken seriously, TI have sent around another email to officials highlighting that drafting is an issue at races.

They have asked TO's to give a quick demo of the drafting zone at the race briefing and for MO's to be less lenient which I think is the right thing to do.

There should be no excuses that people don't know the correct distance or didn't know they couldn't draft.

I even heard they are going to have a committee look at the rules and have a discussion group about it. Impressive

speedyj

Would cyclists with cameras work at all? Would be fun to watch the youtube draftfest channel afterwards. Hell Facebook might even automatically tag some of them

Kurt Godel

couerdelion wrote: »

Just in case there's still a belief that this issue isn't being taken seriously, TI have sent around another email to officials highlighting that drafting is an issue at races.

They have asked TO's to give a quick demo of the drafting zone at the race briefing and for MO's to be less lenient which I think is the right thing to do.

There should be no excuses that people don't know the correct distance or didn't know they couldn't draft.

To be honest I think this will be a big help. Last two races I did, Pikeman and Lanesboro, had very similar straight out-and-back bike routes, where any drafting would be obvious. Pikeman briefing was very clear and very vocal on making sure everyone knew what the draft rules were, how wide you should stay, etc. Lanesboro briefing didn't stress this emphasis on draft rules as much (bigger crowd, people talking, harder to hear maybe?), and there was lots of drafting. It can be easy to get caught up in a tight bunch for a few km and "forget" the drafting zone rules; drilling it home to everyone at briefing will keep it fresh in people's minds.

(There's a forest I run in, lots of dog walkers, and lots of dogsh*t. Every so often someone puts up a sign at the entrance, "Please pick up after your dog", and there's an immediate improvement. Whenever the sign gets ripped down, people are back to their old habits. Shouldn't be like that, but that's folk for ya).

longshank

P2C wrote: »

Yesterdays race dynamic was different in a few ways. 285 people in the one wave, no outstanding swimmers, glass conditions on the lake, 1 minute separated the top 50 competitors out of the water. A massive group hitting the bike at the same time. A lot of fellas with full aero set up hitting the bike at the same time. Make no mistake about it the worst drafting took place on the outward leg as 5/6 fast bikers were moving thought some of the faster swimmers/weaker bikers. Thats when there was a peloton that billy referred to I think. Just after the turnaround he would of met the large drafting group. That group split up slightly after the turnaround......

.....I think race organisers/ TI need to develop a system that uniquely grade athletes in relation to their swim/ finish times from grade 1 to 10 and split grade up into different heats. The maximum wave ratio was ignored yesterday the guidelines suggest much smaller waves

again as per Athy, HOW etc. too many competitors on the road, organisers really do have to take some responsibility for creating the environment for cheats to thrive.
what about marking 10m zones on the road?, would help to remind everyone. If on a straight road it could also be used with stationary marshals. So long as they could see for 15sec after the zone they know if they are passing or drafting. Would definitely improve awarenes.

Green&Red

I was in Lanesboro Saturday and it was a very quick and busy course. After about 5k I was passed by a lad and then a second fella, who turned and told me I needed to drop back, fair enough, I would argue that I thought ur man was quick enough that I would be the 10m back without slowing myself down, I know the onus is on me and that was my judgement call but either way I took the advice in the manner it was intended, there was no agression. the seocnd lad then overtook ur man in front of me and we sat like that in train, the lead fella opening up slowly on the middle who was opening up slowly on me. That was until we got to a hill (there were only maybe 6 inclines for the whole course) at which point I was able to catch and pass both of them, back to the flats or descents they both overtook me again. this was how the race went, we all came out of T2 together. At no stage did any of us draft although by the very action of overtaking all three of us got a small benefit. Thats the way the course played out and maybe if someone had passed us at any stage they would have said we were working together, where all three of us were actively trying not to draft.

Mr Tango

Kurt Godel wrote: »

(There's a forest I run in, lots of dog walkers, and lots of dogsh*t. Every so often someone puts up a sign at the entrance, "Please pick up after your dog", and there's an immediate improvement. Whenever the sign gets ripped down, people are back to their old habits. Shouldn't be like that, but that's folk for ya).

Maybe some big signs every few km on the bike route (e.g. the for sale sign type of thing) stating in big letters "DRAFTING IS CHEATING". Cheap and might make some people take note. You will always get the cheaters though.

gilleek2

longshank wrote: »

again as per Athy, HOW etc. too many competitors on the road, organisers really do have to take some responsibility for creating the environment for cheats to thrive.
what about marking 10m zones on the road?, would help to remind everyone. If on a straight road it could also be used with stationary marshals. So long as they could see for 15sec after the zone they know if they are passing or drafting. Would definitely improve awarenes.

In Kona last year they used existing road markings that coincidentally happened to be 12 metres apart. I'd imagine 3 white lines wouldnt be that far off being 10 metres. It would be a pretty easy way to see if people are drafting.

hardCopy

gilleek2 wrote: »

In Kona last year they used existing road markings that coincidentally happened to be 12 metres apart. I'd imagine 3 white lines wouldnt be that far off being 10 metres. It would be a pretty easy way to see if people are drafting.

Written in small writing on the arse of your tri-suit:

"If you can read this you're a cheating baxtard. Now stop staying at my arse, you creep"

gilleek2

hardCopy wrote: »

Written in small writing on the arse of your tri-suit:

"If you can read this you're a cheating baxtard. Now stop staying at my arse, you creep"

You're gonna need a pretty big arse for all that text to fit.

BTH

gilleek2 wrote: »

You're gonna need a pretty big arse for all that text to fit.

No problem to you Kev

gilleek2

BTH wrote: »

No problem to you Kev

Cheeky!

promethius

an upcoming triathlon got the correspondence mentioned earlier from TI and as a result increased the number of waves to prevent excess traffic out of T1 and less liklihood/opportunity for drafting.

sconhome

Simple solution. Video cameras on bikes (did I say this before?). An appeal of DQ costs you €20-30, video proof would pay for itself in no time.

Personally I'm tired of all the rule breaches. You play the sport forllow the rules no matter how trivial or petty it may seem to you. In Humbert I chased a group of 4 for about 10k before I caught them. A marshal drove up and simply spread them out rather than penalties or stop/go or DQ. They were blatantly in breach of the rules and cheated.

mrbungle

amphkingwest wrote: »

Simple solution. Video cameras on bikes (did I say this before?). An appeal of DQ costs you €20-30, video proof would pay for itself in no time.

Personally I'm tired of all the rule breaches. You play the sport forllow the rules no matter how trivial or petty it may seem to you. In Humbert I chased a group of 4 for about 10k before I caught them. A marshal drove up and simply spread them out rather than penalties or stop/go or DQ. They were blatantly in breach of the rules and cheated.

Local tri yesterday, a girl I tracked after as she was drafting like a 10,000 hour expert, won her age group and was also place very vey high overall, I won't say what place. Pretty disheartening in general.

catweazle

How did Beast of the East go for the drafting - they are not displaying any penalties on their results?

However the bare torsos penalties are loud and proud on the results sheet of the National Aquathon - triathlon Ireland are getting the word out

Bare torsos will be named and shamed