Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

zico10

catweazle wrote: »

How did Beast of the East go for the drafting - they are not displaying any penalties on their results?

The results provide far more daming evidence of drafting having taken place than some of the photos on here have done.

Just because everybody's drafting doesn't make it okay. The same is said about drugs in cycling.

Oryx

catweazle wrote: »

How did Beast of the East go for the drafting - they are not displaying any penalties on their results?

From my pov it was a crowded course. The hills kept bringing packs of cyclists back together. I was far from the pointy end so didn't really see how the top guys behaved. But there were fast packs moving together, but the brief glimpse I got didn't show if this was temporary or delibrrate. I saw no draft busters but they did say they would be focusing mainly on the top 20 riders.

couerdelion

catweazle wrote: »

How did Beast of the East go for the drafting - they are not displaying any penalties on their results?

It didn't seem too bad. Odd time 4-5 riders appeared to be together coming towards me but I couldn't tell if it was temporary or because they had hit a hill. I didn't see any draft groups going the same way as me.

NorthernRaider

I see Shane Scully has some observations on drafting on his blog (he comes clean on his drafting past!).

Honest and interesting observations as usual - not sure if linking is allowed (nor if I know how!)?

shotgunmcos

NorthernRaider wrote: »

I see Shane Scully has some observations on drafting on his blog (he comes clean on his drafting past!).

Honest and interesting observations as usual - not sure if linking is allowed (nor if I know how!)?

http://www.shanescully.com

Interesting candid blog.
Agree with the sentiment in this thread that banning for x races or y months is the way to go. However the nature of waves, wind, crap roads, tight courses etc.. doesn't make it possible to avoid clusters. Having said that there is simply no excuse for the pointy end of the field. I feel that bans alone won't do it. Ban yes, but offer something back by having a solid ranking structure that could have a Top 50 wave in the bigger triathlons. I'd also favour a women's only wave too as the ladies are just as guilty as the lads. (From a marshalling point of view) sorry ladies !

Huff n Puff

In the top 20, the good swimmers are always likely to draft a little when the faster bikers come along. This has been a problem for a long time. You see this with the men and women and you used to see it a lot with the TI juniors (before they grew up and started kicking ass). You might only get a tow for 20 seconds before being blown out but at least that is 20 seconds.

There is a technique to drafting where you won't get pinged unless you are stupid about it and tuck in on someone's wheel. 'Pace line' in a lot of instances is the new word for drafting. People in pace lines move in and out of the draft zone all the time. I don't know how the hell these super bunches are getting away with it though.

Bunches have always been there but they are far more likely to occur now. As others have said - it can be hard to avoid it due to the growing popularity of the sport. The roads are often packed so what are you going to do?

Many people claim to be whiter than white on this issue especially on this forum, but I would have my doubts. Most people have drafted at some stage in their triathlon career whether they care to admit it or not.

I would hate to be a draft marshall and can fully understand the reluctance to penalise people. The levels of anger shown by some competitors is astonishing. The bare face lying that goes on as well is ridiculous - you would swear nobody drafts in Ireland - it's always someone elses fault. If you get caught for drafting then you can be pretty sure that something was going on at some stage and throwing your toys out of the pram is not the right reaction. The right answer is always to take your punishment and get out on your bike more so that you don't need to do it again.

Eamon Horgan used to draft marshall at the HOTW and he was excellent at the job. He was an experienced triathlete and took no crap from anyone and would have no bother pulling in full groups. He rightly pulled me over for a roadside penalty maybe 5 years ago and I accepted the punishment and got on with it. That is the type of draft marshalling needed.

In recent years I have been race director of our own local race and I have had to make calls on drafting. This drafting has often involved podium positions and I am not proud to say that I tend to bottle the decision everytime as everyone swears on their mother's grave that they are innocent. It is way easier to do nothing and that is part of the problem.

tunney

Pacelines are synonymous with PROs in IM racing. Its part of the game. Rightly so.

However a key mistake that you have in your analysis is that pace lines in WTC racing are bound by different rules. Enter the draft zone then you pass. You cannot drop back.

What you have described is plain old drafting.

Eamo is a great bloke alot of time for him. If there were more RDs and officals like him then the problem would go away. But there aren't most avoid confrontation and that enables the cheaters. I personally do know the hassle that confronting cheats can cause, but that doesn't know it shouldn't be done.

Huff n Puff

tunney wrote: »

Pacelines are synonymous with PROs in IM racing. Its part of the game. Rightly so.

However a key mistake that you have in your analysis is that pace lines in WTC racing are bound by different rules. Enter the draft zone then you pass. You cannot drop back.

What you have described is plain old drafting.

Eamo is a great bloke alot of time for him. If there were more RDs and officals like him then the problem would go away. But there aren't most avoid confrontation and that enables the cheaters. I personally do know the hassle that confronting cheats can cause, but that doesn't know it shouldn't be done.

tunney wrote: »

Pacelines are synonymous with PROs in IM racing. Its part of the game. Rightly so.

However a key mistake that you have in your analysis is that pace lines in WTC racing are bound by different rules. Enter the draft zone then you pass. You cannot drop back.

What you have described is plain old drafting.

Eamo is a great bloke alot of time for him. If there were more RDs and officals like him then the problem would go away. But there aren't most avoid confrontation and that enables the cheaters. I personally do know the hassle that confronting cheats can cause, but that doesn't know it shouldn't be done.

Sound lad alright.

Yes I am describing the term pace line as a code word for drafting in Ireland. It is definitely open to more abuse here, but it is open to abuse at all levels.

When I talk about moving in and out I mean barely in and barely out of the draft zone. To such an extent that a draft marshall will find it very hard to make a call. I believe this goes on at all levels of the sport as it is very hard to cycle at the draft box limit for mile after mile without encroaching by the odd metre every now and then. There might be a rule that says you have to overtake but if refs can't spot the encroaching then there is no need to overtake.

I am pretty sure that there is still a very small drafting benefit at the legal pace line limit. So even at the legal limit you can say they are drafting.

longshank

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Sound lad alright.

Yes I am describing the term pace line as a code word for drafting in Ireland. It is definitely open to more abuse here, but it is open to abuse at all levels.

When I talk about moving in and out I mean barely in and barely out of the draft zone. To such an extent that a draft marshall will find it very hard to make a call. I believe this goes on at all levels of the sport as it is very hard to cycle at the draft box limit for mile after mile without encroaching by the odd metre every now and then. There might be a rule that says you have to overtake but if refs can't spot the encroaching then there is no need to overtake.

I am pretty sure that there is still a very small drafting benefit at the legal pace line limit. So even at the legal limit you can say they are drafting.

I don't think the situation you describe about encroaching in and out of draft zone (a difficult situation to avoid if you are behind someone of equal ability) is the one that is annoying people. I think the problem situations are a lot more obvious and intentional than that!

NorthernRaider

Interesting thoughts! Personally, I think the point about pace lines is a fair one. I suspect that most people are 7/8m back, so officially drafting, but probably believing they're not. It can be hard to stay at 10m particularly if battling somebody of similar ability.

To be honest, this doesn't exercise me too much as the person behind is making an effort to respect the rules and it gives the leader some chance to break away.

It's the brazen jumping on wheels and orchestrated 'up and overs' that to me is the major problem!

tunney

NorthernRaider wrote: »

Interesting thoughts! Personally, I think the point about pace lines is a fair one. I suspect that most people are 7/8m back, so officially drafting, but probably believing they're not. It can be hard to stay at 10m particularly if battling somebody of similar ability.

To be honest, this doesn't exercise me too much as the person behind is making an effort to respect the rules and it gives the leader some chance to break away.

It's the brazen jumping on wheels and orchestrated 'up and overs' that to me is the major problem!

If you aren't sure you are 10m back, stay 12m. Simple.

I used to pace legally but always more than the limit to account for not being able to accurately judge 10m.

If you dip to 7-8m repeatedly then you've broken the rules and are a cheat.

longshank

tunney wrote: »

If you aren't sure you are 10m back, stay 12m. Simple.

I used to pace legally but always more than the limit to account for not being able to accurately judge 10m.

If you dip to 7-8m repeatedly then you've broken the rules and are a cheat.

I know this is being pedantic but anyway - if you can't accurately judge 10m how to you judge 12m?

Huff n Puff

longshank wrote: »

I don't think the situation you describe about encroaching in and out of draft zone (a difficult situation to avoid if you are behind someone of equal ability) is the one that is annoying people. I think the problem situations are a lot more obvious and intentional than that!

I agree. There are different degrees of cheating. One is far less subtle (and more annyoing) than the other but both involve drafting and both are common. The further up the field in Ireland you go the more likely you are to encounter 'paceline' drafting issues instead of bunch formation.

Strangely, I enjoy hearing about these large packs on the chase. I am always far more worried about the lads 'pacelining' ahead of me on the road.

Tunney - fair play to you. Racing in Ireland: Have you ever been caught by a pack of say 15+ people - if so have you let them go? That takes some inner strength to pull on the brakes to actively try to get out of a bunch slipstream.

Fazz

In my opinion there's 2 issues TI need to address.

1 - demo the 10m gap in race briefing so athletes get a visual and none of this 7m nonsense.

2 - clarify in race briefing the 5sec to get out of draft zone when passed rule.


I've seen copious amounts of the above this season and have a relatively fair view as have been coming from a slower swim with a strong bike split.

I've been the victim of 2 above and even by half honest riders who as I passed them tried to repass me seconds later as they got my draft, didn't tuck out then decided to try pass.
I was passed a couple times like this and I had to drop 10m back. Doing so and looking at 50 watts less then put a rocket up me to move ahead again.

Hearing a flapping noise for some time like it was coming from my bike only to realise after being passed it was from the bike now in front was also quite funny!

I've also witnessed and called out drafters as I've passed them, either saying too close or you're drafting.
On one such occasion I spoke after the race to be told it was simply timing as i passed that looked like an offence.
Thing is I had followed that group taking near 5mins to catch and pass them so it wasn't innocent.

Kilkee was quite bad and actually worse by a group of 3-4 within the top 15.

Speaking to one of these guys afterwards it became apparent he didn't know the 10m rule (thought it was less), didn't know the drop out rule and had a poor perception of exactly how close he was riding - 3-4m instead of his "legal 7m"...

Others just shrug their shoulders couldn't care less obv.

Better race briefings of the above combined with better marshals and more importantly dedicated marshals to the top 10/15 shouldn't be too hard at least for mens race and ensures podiums/prizes are fair.

Good luck to the marshals at DCT this year eh!

Stop and go's are prob the most practical to apply on the course.

Another thing I think I read a few pages back a marshal somewhere posted 20-30 seconds to get out of draft if passed...
if the marshals don't even know the rules then there's no hope anyway..

The rules are:
- 20 secs to pass
- 5 secs to get 10m back when passed. Cannot repass straight away.

Also I thought rules were 12m not 10m but maybe that's the front wheel of leading or something.

peter kern

Huff n Puff wrote: »

I agree. There are different degrees of cheating. One is far less subtle (and more annyoing) than the other but both involve drafting and both are common. The further up the field in Ireland you go the more likely you are to encounter 'paceline' drafting issues instead of bunch formation.

Strangely, I enjoy hearing about these large packs on the chase. I am always far more worried about the lads 'pacelining' ahead of me on the road.

Tunney - fair play to you. Racing in Ireland: Have you ever been caught by a pack of say 15+ people - if so have you let them go? That takes some inner strength to pull on the brakes to actively try to get out of a bunch slipstream.

yes dave did in a duathlon where the top 5 or so got a penality
and he dropped back.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

yes dave did in a duathlon where the top 5 or so got a penality
and he dropped back.

No Peter that's simply not true. Please try to control your habit of making stuff up.

peter kern

http://www.irishtriathlon.com/index.php/2011/02/fingal-tri-duathlon-balbriggan/

Trig1

I'm racing "little bo peep tri" at the weekend and just got this email from triathlon ireland...looks like they are trying to do something about the issues...

Dear Competitor

As you are due to take part in a National Series event this weekend, in which drafting is illegal, please see the below information about drafting to ensure that you do not unwittingly cause yourself to receive a penalty. Should you have any queries please do not hesitate to contact our office.

Drafting

To draft is to enter the bicycle or vehicle drafting zone.

Drafting from another athlete or motor vehicle is forbidden. Athletes must reject attempts by others to draft.

An athlete is entitled to any position on the course, provided they get to that position first and without contacting others. When taking a position, an athlete must allow reasonable space for others to make normal movements without making contact. Adequate space must be available before passing. An athlete who approaches from any position to take advantage of the draft, bears responsibility for avoiding the draft.

Bicycle draft zone: the bicycle draft zone will be a rectangle 3 meters wide and 12 meters long.

The centre of the leading 3 meters edge will be measured from the leading edge of the front wheel.

An athlete may enter the draft zone of another athlete, but must be seen to be progressing through that zone. A maximum of 20 seconds will be allowed to pass through the zone of another athlete.



Vehicle draft zone: The vehicle draft zone will be a rectangle thirty-five (35) metres long by five (5) metres wide which surrounds every vehicle on the bike segment. The front edge of the vehicle will define the centre of the leading 5 metre edge of the rectangle.



Entry into the bicycle drafting zone: An athlete may enter a bike draft zone in the following circumstances:

- If the athlete enters the draft zone, and progresses through it within 20 seconds in the overtaking manoeuvre;

- For safety reasons;

- 100 metres before and after an aid station or transition area;

- At an acute turn;

- If the Technical Delegate excludes a section of the course because of narrow lanes, construction, detours, or for other safety reasons.

Overtaking: An athlete is passed when another athlete's front wheel is ahead of theirs. Once overtaken, an athlete must move out of the draft zone of the leading athlete within 5 seconds.















Athletes must keep to the side of the course and not create a blocking incident. Blocking is where an athlete who is behind cannot pass due to the leading athlete being poorly placed on the course.

The Motorcycle/Technical Official will instruct the athletes during the briefing on which side they
must pass another athlete when mounted on their bicycle.













Penalties for Drafting: It is forbidden to draft in a race declared as draft-illegal.

Motorcycle/Technical Officials will notify the athletes who draft that they are subject to a time penalty sanction, if it is safe for them to do so. This notification must be clear and unambiguous.

The athlete sanctioned has to stop in the next Penalty Box and must stay there for a specific time depending on the race distance. 1 minute for sprint distance, 2 minutes for standard distance and 5 minutes for long distance.

It is the athlete’s responsibility to stop in the next Penalty Box. Failing to stop will result in a disqualification.

A second drafting offence will lead to a disqualification in standard distance events or shorter.

The third drafting offence will lead to disqualification for Long Distance events.

Please be advised that appeals/protests cannot be made against "judgment calls" made by officials. This includes, but is not limited to, drafting, dangerous riding, safety issues and unsporting conduct. Please see here for more details regarding appeals and protests.

Details of all rules can be found in the Manual of Guidance or the ITU Rules on the Triathlon Ireland website.

Kind regards


Victoria Nolan
Administrator
vicky@triathlonireland.com

Trig1

Sorry ,there was pics also but they never pasted...:(

El Director

No mention at all about having 5sec to drop back after being passed??!!

hardCopy

El Director wrote: »

No mention at all about having 5sec to drop back after being passed??!!

It's there:

Overtaking: An athlete is passed when another athlete's front wheel is ahead of theirs. Once overtaken, an athlete must move out of the draft zone of the leading athlete within 5 seconds.

El Director

hardCopy wrote: »

It's there:

Haha...thanks. Silly me

tunney

" d.

The 2nd run didn’t seem to affect the Rich Brady as he coasted to victory in a time of 52.51, 11 seconds ahead of Dave Barry who made up 3 places to finish 2nd, and 3rd was Barry Hughes a further 6 secinds back. Damian Kelly, David Corcoran, Gavin Smullen, Neil Kelly, Ciaran Giblin, David Tunney & Hugh Carberry completed the top 10. However, the TI race officials adjudicated that 7 of the top 10 should be awarded a 1 min drafting penalty. This didn’t affect the first 3 prizes but it moved Neil Kelly to 5th place and David Tunney to 7th place. "

Read it again Peter. Then get someone else to explain it to you.

hardCopy

tunney wrote: »

" d.

The 2nd run didn’t seem to affect the Rich Brady as he coasted to victory in a time of 52.51, 11 seconds ahead of Dave Barry who made up 3 places to finish 2nd, and 3rd was Barry Hughes a further 6 secinds back. Damian Kelly, David Corcoran, Gavin Smullen, Neil Kelly, Ciaran Giblin, David Tunney & Hugh Carberry completed the top 10. However, the TI race officials adjudicated that 7 of the top 10 should be awarded a 1 min drafting penalty. This didn’t affect the first 3 prizes but it moved Neil Kelly to 5th place and David Tunney to 7th place. "

Read it again Peter. Then get someone else to explain it to you.

I think he meant that you dropped back rather than draft, and benefited from the penalty. Not that you dropped back in the results due to penalty.

Peter's post is a little unclear, as is the wording of the article.

tunney

hardCopy wrote: »

I think he meant that you dropped back rather than draft, and benefited from the penalty. Not that you dropped back in the results due to penalty.

Peter's post is a little unclear, as is the wording of the article.

In that case I owe you an apology Peter. I shouldn't have jumped down your throat. Please accept my apology. I should have considered that you might have been defending me.

longshank

Ref Little Bo Peep email I was a bit confused when I saw that 12m zone
and when I checked this from TI website it stated it was 10m

Two different distances from TI doesn't help matters!!

longshank

longshank wrote: »

Ref Little Bo Peep email I was a bit confused when I saw that 12m zone
and when I checked this from TI website it stated it was 10m

Two different distances from TI doesn't help matters!!

Found the answer to my own question
"The length of the rectangle will
depend on the distance of the race: for Long distance events the length will
measure 12 metres; for Standard distance events or shorter, the length will
measure 10 metres. "

Would help it TI were a bit more accurate in their emails!

Shedite27

As someone relatively new to Tri, it seems strange to measure drafting by meters rather than seconds, seeing as the benefit is gained by time distance you are behind somebody rather than meter distance.

For example, if racers are going at 45km/h, 8m back will gain you significant drafting benefit whereas going uphill, being 8m back will give you much less benefit. Seems more sensible to say you need to be 2 seconds behind.

It's much easier for people to judge (see when the person in front passes a fixed mark (telephone pole), then say "one hippopotamus, two hippopotamus" and if you're passed the pole by the time you've finished saying it, you're too close.

Doesn't address people going out to cheat obviously, but it's a lot easier for honest people to gauge in the heat of the moment

dario28

Hitler Has got involved !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il-v5RhgRBk

promethius

penalty board was empty at rosses point sprint at the weekend.