Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

mirrormatrix

Shedite27 wrote: »

As someone relatively new to Tri, it seems strange to measure drafting by meters rather than seconds, seeing as the benefit is gained by time distance you are behind somebody rather than meter distance.

For example, if racers are going at 45km/h, 8m back will gain you significant drafting benefit whereas going uphill, being 8m back will give you much less benefit. Seems more sensible to say you need to be 2 seconds behind.

It's much easier for people to judge (see when the person in front passes a fixed mark (telephone pole), then say "one hippopotamus, two hippopotamus" and if you're passed the pole by the time you've finished saying it, you're too close.

Doesn't address people going out to cheat obviously, but it's a lot easier for honest people to gauge in the heat of the moment

I'm not sure how this would help Shedite. Drafting marshals are on bikes so I presume that it is easier for them to judge by distance rather than time.

Any marshals that are at a fixed point probably won't see you for long enough to be able to accurately judge if you are drafting or not.

sconhome

promethius wrote: »

penalty board was empty at rosses point sprint at the weekend.

It should have been stuffed full of numbers.

From bare chests, through ridiculous drafting on the bike the whole gamut of penalties was on display.

What was disappointing is while this is a local club race, it is at these events enfocement of the rules are most important as its here that people test the waters, decide they like tri and go on learning bad habits.

P2C

amphkingwest wrote: »

It should have been stuffed full of numbers.

From bare chests, through ridiculous drafting on the bike the whole gamut of penalties was on display.

What was disappointing is while this is a local club race, it is at these events enforcement of the rules are most important as its here that people test the waters, decide they like tri and go on learning bad habits.

I agree re bare chests, I saw bare foot runners but not sure re drafting. Maybe down the pack but there was no bunching at the front end of the race. The top 10/15 were well spread out and there were big time gaps of the bike. I only saw the the gaps on the 2k out and back section and the top 15 were well spread out over 2k.

The race had two waves @100 approx per wave and a very wide range of standards.

Again I agree with your point re drafting and penalties and it doesn't matter what standard rules must be enforced. In fairness the TO did emphasise but unless the board is full with penalties nobody will pay a blind bit of attention.

I heard from a few lads that Loughrea had big packs on tight country roads and again lots of athletes of the same standard will be very hard to break up. Only one penalty for drafting and one DQ for crossing the centre of the road. Ironically trying to avoid a drafting pack by passing on the outside.

Be interesting to see if Lough Key go with waves this year as they always have a one of race in a sprint

Ceepo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y26Ak7bAVUQ

No Drafting here

Are these called pace lines ?

BTH

Ceepo wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y26Ak7bAVUQ

No Drafting here

Are these called pace lines ?

Looks all legal from that but not entirely clear.

What is clear is that gibbo needs to learn how to leave his bike shoes on his bike at dismount

sconhome

BTH wrote: »

Looks all legal from that but not entirely clear.

What is clear is that gibbo needs to learn how to leave his bike shoes on his bike at dismount

He just had to be different from everyone else!

P2C

A cyclist at 40 kph will cover 12 meters in approximately one second. By the time intervals on youtube that was a paceline. I am guessing a lot of people would of looked at the back end of that clip and thought they were drafting. That clip was a legal paceline based on the time intervals.

Maybe they should insist on a 1 sec gap between riders on the bike and focus on penalising the riders who jumps into the slipstream once a rider passes on the outside. Everyone should hold their line. My biggest gripe is lads that will purposely jump from the inside onto someone's wheel that is passing on the outside. That is blatant cheating

There an etiquette in Ironman racing and specifically paceline riding. Everyone takes a turn at the front. They can be strung out.

I don't think ITU really pay to much heed to drafting in age group racing. Its not their focus. They are more interested in ITU format and they are making the rules

pgibbo

BTH wrote: »

What is clear is that gibbo needs to learn how to leave his bike shoes on his bike at dismount

I also need to have the shoes on the bike before I mount too. Putting them on in T1 is a just silly

pgibbo

Ceepo wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y26Ak7bAVUQ

No Drafting here

Are these called pace lines ?

That was a damn fast part of the course too. Speeds in excess of 40kph for most people.

mloc123

pgibbo wrote: »

I also need to have the shoes on the bike before I mount too. Putting them on in T1 is a just silly

Swim with them on..

Mr Tango

Lots of action on the CK Tri board yesterday. Good few drafting penalties.

Bambaata

Mr Tango wrote: »

Lots of action on the CK Tri board yesterday. Good few drafting penalties.

Shame the results dont show who

griffin100

Didn't see any penalties in Tri The Lough yesterday but did see drafting and bare torsos.

Jupiter36

The official results will show who got penalties. Timing company's format doesn't accommodate space for text reflecting penalties (unless they are willing to reformat manually on the day - maybe something to consider for future events). They just add the time penalty to the total.

fluboy

Great race on Saturday at the CK Tri. I just noticed that 3 of the drafting penalties imposed were given to three lads who finished just ahead of me in the top 20. Kind of pissed off now.



http://racetimingsolutions.racetecresults.com/results.aspx?CId=16269&RId=175

Bambaata

I see there seemed to be a nice little chain gang going based on those numbers and the results. I presume we cant name them here properly can we?

miller82

Bambaata wrote: »

I see there seemed to be a nice little chain gang going based on those numbers and the results. I presume we cant name them here properly can we?

wouldnt be too hard to figure out

http://racetimingsolutions.racetecresults.com/results.aspx?CId=16269&RId=175

A group of about 4 or 5 whizzed by me when i was about 9th/10th on the bike so i presume it was these lads. One even asked me "the marshal hasnt been around giving yellows has he" .....eh no...."ah grand so".. and on they went

Granolite

Bambaata wrote: »

I see there seemed to be a nice little chain gang going based on those numbers and the results. I presume we cant name them here properly can we?

miller82 wrote: »

wouldnt be too hard to figure out

http://racetimingsolutions.racetecresults.com/results.aspx?CId=16269&RId=175

A group of about 4 or 5 whizzed by me when i was about 9th/10th on the bike so i presume it was these lads. One even asked me "the marshal hasnt been around giving yellows has he" .....eh no...."ah grand so".. and on they went

A remarkably coordinated effort for the event as a whole by those lads when you compare the times above and below them on the results/timing sheet.

NorthernRaider

Very disappointing to see such blatant flouting of the rules.

Could we not have a rolling list of drafting penalties, updated here through the season? Ideally, TI would also have one.

I know it's only the tip of the iceberg, but from an ethical / legal perspective, surely there is no issue (penalties are independently determined and there's an avenue of appeal)?

Bambaata

miller82 wrote: »

wouldnt be too hard to figure out

http://racetimingsolutions.racetecresults.com/results.aspx?CId=16269&RId=175

A group of about 4 or 5 whizzed by me when i was about 9th/10th on the bike so i presume it was these lads. One even asked me "the marshal hasnt been around giving yellows has he" .....eh no...."ah grand so".. and on they went

Oh ive seen that but i was wondering if we could start a name and shame thread whereby we could put up each race and who was penalised at each.

catweazle

Jupiter36 wrote: »

The official results will show who got penalties. Timing company's format doesn't accommodate space for text reflecting penalties (unless they are willing to reformat manually on the day - maybe something to consider for future events). They just add the time penalty to the total.

A fair point - perhaps provisional results should not be posted at all without these drafting penalties displayed prominently, I assume TI could push through a diktat like that for their National Series races. I will admit I have read them already and I wont be going back in again to the site to look for official ones now

Are racetec the same crowd that did the Hell of the West - while I like their results and rankings display they need to adjust their fields to bump penalties up onto their main information page rather than a secondary page or they could give an option of an xls sheet with all info from the results page perhaps

The results sheet for the Aquathon and Loughrea races had the penalties in plain view - I assume both were done by Redtagtiming who display them in xls or pdf format, a simpler system but gives more flexibility on the output

NeedsTraining

I was one of those who got a drafting penalty at CK on Saturday.
While there have been some disparaging comments in the thread above about us who so 'blatantly flouted the rules', I can guarantee you there was no train or peloton on Saturday.
I will discuss, challenge, debate or do whatever else you want to do in relation to this, so feel free to ask any question you want.

I won't lose any sleep over this because I know I raced fair and honest on Saturday.
What I do feel aggrieved about is the penalty itself and had a conversation with the TO afterwards as I was just after been passed and I had sat up.

For what it was worth, my 10k splits were 17.14, 16.22, 17.14, 16.52. On a 2 lap course, I was either drafting consistently or splits were consistent. I know what way I look at it.
A 30 second difference between the 16.22 and 16.52 sections, you can ask was that the benefit of drafting? Or I could tell you my calf cramped about 5k from home.

As I said I know the truth, so feel free to be the first to throw stones if you believe it is warranted.

bryangiggsy

Fair play for admitting the penalty.

From what your saying a guy went past you pulled in front.... and you sat up and a motorbike pinged you straight away?

mloc123

I raced a draft legal race about a month ago. I was on my own for the first 10km and got into a nice paceline for the second 10km. My splits were even, my effort throughout was not

Even splits mean nothing.

NorthernRaider

What I do feel aggrieved about is the penalty itself and had a conversation with the TO afterwards as I was just after been passed and I had sat up.

So, what did the TO say?

NeedsTraining

NorthernRaider wrote: »

What I do feel aggrieved about is the penalty itself and had a conversation with the TO afterwards as I was just after been passed and I had sat up.

So, what did the TO say?

He basically said you may not have thought you were but you were. Wasn't really worth arguing it as he said there would be no overturning. But he did acknowledge the fact that I had sat up but not soon enough

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Fair play for admitting the penalty.

From what your saying a guy went past you pulled in front.... and you sat up and a motorbike pinged you straight away?

It was a car actually :eek:
I was passed by 2 guys immediately before I was done. Again, he said I didn't fall back soon enough. In my opinion, it's very hard to drop straight back when you are going full pelt in your own race. Especially when the bikes in front are slowing down. My two cents worth

mloc123 wrote: »

I raced a draft legal race about a month ago. I was on my own for the first 10km and got into a nice paceline for the second 10km. My splits were even, my effort throughout was not

Even splits mean nothing.

Fair point, however I know the effort I put in and I know I worked as hard in each of the 10k splits.

I have no problem admitting the penalty here because I know I did nothing wrong, as I said previously, I raced honest and fair.

I hereby close my defence, justification or as I would like to call it transparency

fluboy

I taught the T.O in the "undercover" car was a smart way of checking on the bike course and it worked well. Might be a good idea for all races on open roads?

bryangiggsy

NeedsTraining wrote: »

He basically said you may not have thought you were but you were. Wasn't really worth arguing it as he said there would be no overturning. But he did acknowledge the fact that I had sat up but not soon enough



It was a car actually :eek:
I was passed by 2 guys immediately before I was done. Again, he said I didn't fall back soon enough. In my opinion, it's very hard to drop straight back when you are going full pelt in your own race. Especially when the bikes in front are slowing down. My two cents worth



Fair point, however I know the effort I put in and I know I worked as hard in each of the 10k splits.

I have no problem admitting the penalty here because I know I did nothing wrong, as I said previously, I raced honest and fair.

I hereby close my defence, justification or as I would like to call it transparency

I assume the 2 guys who passed u got pinged as well. No offence but its hard to believe ...if a car pinged u he must have had good reason and going on what u described that does not convey good reason.

Green&Red

NeedsTraining wrote: »

I was passed by 2 guys immediately before I was done. Again, he said I didn't fall back soon enough. In my opinion, it's very hard to drop straight back when you are going full pelt in your own race. Especially when the bikes in front are slowing down. My two cents worth

Had you overtaken these two guys previously?

longshank

fluboy wrote: »

Great race on Saturday at the CK Tri. I just noticed that 3 of the drafting penalties imposed were given to three lads who finished just ahead of me in the top 20. Kind of pissed off now.



http://racetimingsolutions.racetecresults.com/results.aspx?CId=16269&RId=175

no. 73 got a drafting penalty AND a spot prize...you win some, you loose some!!