Ireland's Cheating Triathletes - Kilkee Draftfest. What to do?

mossym

didn't see if there was any penalties handed out, but huge amount of drafting going on at world ends tri today. had 8 lads in a group about half a km in front of me for a good portion of the ride, no efforts to overtake going on.

couldn't gain on them in the group, but when it did eventually break up it was crazy to see how easy it was to pick them off . they were gaining such an advantage in the group it's depressing

Solobally8

Worlds end was the same last year. Worst drafting I've ever seen. Packs the whole way round the course. I was thinking it was possibly because there are so many beginners at that triathlon, maybe they don't see it as cheating. It could never be a Ns race as far as I'm concerned.

Ceepo

I wasn't there but i hear they were hunting in packs,

Fermoy didnt escape the draft fest either,

Dont think there will be any end to it i'm afraid :mad:

mirrormatrix

Just out of interest, why do the pros race road bikes in draft legal races, while the AGers race TT bikes with no drafting. I know that this is what ITU rules state, but what is the underlying reason?

Is it a safety issue? This doesn't seem to stack up to me for a number of reasons, the chief one being that there are already plenty of cycling races organised through CI which would have exactly the same issues. Crashes should be no more likely in the bike leg of a tri than in a cycling race.

I've been told in the past that triathletes ride TT bikes in no drafting races because it is a solo sport and drafting benefits one athlete at the expense of another. However, drafting is permitted (and even encouraged) in the swim leg so why not just apply the same rationale to the bike leg and make it draft legal?

I'm just genuinely curious as to why the pro races are a totally different variant of the sport to the AG races? Is this unique to Ireland or is it an ITU wide rule? I would love to see some draft legal races on the TI calendar. I think it would make the races a lot more tactical, as you would need to try to find a pack to work with on the bike leg.

I guess this approach wouldn't make sense in the context of the NS, as it would introduce even more variation between races, but I think it would be cool to have the option of doing this type of race, even if it weren't part of the NS.

sconhome

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Just out of interest, why do the pros race road bikes in draft legal races, while the AGers race TT bikes with no drafting. I know that this is what ITU rules state, but what is the underlying reason?

Is it a safety issue? This doesn't seem to stack up to me for a number of reasons, the chief one being that there are already plenty of cycling races organised through CI which would have exactly the same issues. Crashes should be no more likely in the bike leg of a tri than in a cycling race.

I've been told in the past that triathletes ride TT bikes in no drafting races because it is a solo sport and drafting benefits one athlete at the expense of another. However, drafting is permitted (and even encouraged) in the swim leg so why not just apply the same rationale to the bike leg and make it draft legal?

I'm just genuinely curious as to why the pro races are a totally different variant of the sport to the AG races? Is this unique to Ireland or is it an ITU wide rule? I would love to see some draft legal races on the TI calendar. I think it would make the races a lot more tactical, as you would need to try to find a pack to work with on the bike leg.

I guess this approach wouldn't make sense in the context of the NS, as it would introduce even more variation between races, but I think it would be cool to have the option of doing this type of race, even if it weren't part of the NS.

Good question (possibly one for discussion in a new thread mods?).

The official reason is safety and time advantages in what is supposed to be an individual sport: Rule of the Week #1

Personally I would agree with the safety reasons.

Have you seen the carnage that happens in cycling sportives when people think they're in the Tour de France? Fellows scattered all over the place overtaking on the wrong side of the road, no regard for the rules of the road or other traffic.

Do you really want to be racing at 35/40km/hr in a bunch with a dolly mixture of abilities and cycling skills? I don't.

I think the pro series is better as a result of being draft legal. Safety wise they are far more experienced so while the risks are minimised, everyone is more on a par with cycling skills etc AND their courses are always closed to traffic.

I also agree with the spirit of the sport being individual, its you racing against you (and hoping to beat a few others along the way).

Bambaata

I dont think you can compare cycling and triathlon either. I reckon there are a lot more inexperienced people doping triathlon (its the new marathon) than cycling. I know ive heard a lot of horror stories in the A4s in cycling and id imagine it would be utter carnage in triathlon! I know i wouldnt be happy cycling in a triathlon bunch.

RacoonQueen

Seemed to be a few people caught for drafting at DCT. All marshals on the course were taking numbers of people who seemed to be drafting, if your number was reported by marshals three times you're gone.

Few DQ's for dangerous riding as well.
TWO DQ's for headphones...

miller82

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Seemed to be a few people caught for drafting at DCT. All marshals on the course were taking numbers of people who seemed to be drafting, if your number was reported by marshals three times you're gone.

Few DQ's for dangerous riding as well.
TWO DQ's for headphones...

Where are you seeing the reasons for penalties ?

RacoonQueen

miller82 wrote: »

Where are you seeing the reasons for penalties ?

It was on the penalty board in the vodafone tent. Did you get one?

miller82

RacoonQueen wrote: »

It was on the penalty board in the vodafone tent. Did you get one?

Yeah but wasnt for drafting anyway. Just saw it in the results

RacoonQueen

miller82 wrote: »

Yeah but wasnt for drafting anyway. Just saw it in the results

Dismount line? They were strict on dismount line as well.

sconhome

Bambaata wrote: »

I dont think you can compare cycling and triathlon either. I reckon there are a lot more inexperienced people doping triathlon(its the new marathon) than cycling. I know ive heard a lot of horror stories in the A4s in cycling and id imagine it would be utter carnage in triathlon! I know i wouldnt be happy cycling in a triathlon bunch.

:eek: :eek:

Bambaata

amphkingwest wrote: »

:eek: :eek:

Woops :-P

mossym

Solobally8 wrote: »

Worlds end was the same last year. Worst drafting I've ever seen. Packs the whole way round the course. I was thinking it was possibly because there are so many beginners at that triathlon, maybe they don't see it as cheating. It could never be a Ns race as far as I'm concerned.

wouldn't blame the beginners this year, not exclusively at least,won't go into details but at least a few of the group i was chasing were not new to the sport

Stereomaniac

I am trying to understand what drafting is but I still am not sure if I have grasped it correctly?

Mr.Fred

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I am trying to understand what drafting is but I still am not sure if I have grasped it correctly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drafting_(aerodynamics)

boodiebhoy

mossym wrote: »

wouldn't blame the beginners this year, not exclusively at least,won't go into details but at least a few of the group i was chasing were not new to the sport

As a newbie I joined a club at start of the year and have been warned by the club about drafting right from the start. Maybe clubs could play a bigger role in discouraging their members from drafting.

Ceepo

boodiebhoy wrote: »

As a newbie I joined a club at start of the year and have been warned by the club about drafting right from the start. Maybe clubs could play a bigger role in discouraging their members from drafting.

You may have a point. But for the most part the ones who are Drafting know they are Drafting.
It happens in every race and will continue to do so.

Re Worlds end. If you leave 250+ of in one wave you are asking for trouble.
Smaller staggered waves and you might have some hope.

ray o

I was talking with a clubmate last night. He went off in wave 1 yesterday and he swam sub 24. He said he was on the feet of a swimmer most of the way from the start but about 50-70 yards from the turn the feet disappeared. He looked ahead and to both sides but could not see where he had gone. Couple of seconds later the person popped up on the other side of the center boom.

I don't think there are many courses where someone would be able to cheat in this manner - thinking about it it's such a simple thing to do on that course if you want to cheat. It's one for the organisers to be aware of next year - have plenty of kayaks positioned 200m or so from the turnaround on both sides

hardCopy

ray o wrote: »

I was talking with a clubmate last night. He went off in wave 1 yesterday and he swam sub 24. He said he was on the feet of a swimmer most of the way from the start but about 50-70 yards from the turn the feet disappeared. He looked ahead and to both sides but could not see where he had gone. Couple of seconds later the person popped up on the other side of the center boom.

I don't think there are many courses where someone would be able to cheat in this manner - thinking about it it's such a simple thing to do on that course if you want to cheat. It's one for the organisers to be aware of next year - have plenty of kayaks positioned 200m or so from the turnaround on both sides

Seems a pretty dangerous way to cheat. Skipping a buoy is one thing but diving under a boom with ropes and weeds to get tangled on, in murky water is just dumb.

tunney

boodiebhoy wrote: »

As a newbie I joined a club at start of the year and have been warned by the club about drafting right from the start. Maybe clubs could play a bigger role in discouraging their members from drafting.

Some clubs promote drafting.

longshank

ray o wrote: »

I was talking with a clubmate last night. He went off in wave 1 yesterday and he swam sub 24. He said he was on the feet of a swimmer most of the way from the start but about 50-70 yards from the turn the feet disappeared. He looked ahead and to both sides but could not see where he had gone. Couple of seconds later the person popped up on the other side of the center boom.

I don't think there are many courses where someone would be able to cheat in this manner - thinking about it it's such a simple thing to do on that course if you want to cheat. It's one for the organisers to be aware of next year - have plenty of kayaks positioned 200m or so from the turnaround on both sides

How some people can take satisfaction from competing by cheating is just something I dont comprehend, but there seems to be no shortage of people who have no moral compass whatsoever.

hardCopy

longshank wrote: »

How some people can take satisfaction from competing by cheating is just something I dont comprehend, but there seems to be no shortage of people who have no moral compass whatsoever.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but in many sports cheating is considered part of the game. In rugby it's part of a back row forward's job description to test the referee at every opportunity and cheat until your caught, this could probably be eliminated if sin-bins were handed out more readily but it's really just seen as part of the game. In race walking they ignore the fact that racers are technically running and only call it when it's visible to the naked eye. Ice hockey penalises fighting but not so much that it'll ever be removed from the game.

Why do people see drafting in triathlon as this big dirty thing?

I came to triathlon from rugby, where I was a was a persistent and proud cheat, I'd pull jerseys, lie off side, hold onto the ball, hold onto the opposition, trip people up, whatever I could do to get an edge or even just annoy someone for the craic. Neil Back was a hero of mine. (I drew the line at what I considered dirty: gouging, biting etc.)

As a triathlete I never draft, if someone passes me and pulls in right in front I'll deliberately drop back rather than take my time about it. I'm not sure why I view this differently to rugby, but I do.

For some reason I have a different attitude to tri than I did to rugby and the more I think about it the more it seems logical to draft. It's effective, it's badly policed and the sanctions are arguably less than the benefit of the act.

If the tri community really wants to stop drafting then the penalty should be large enough that it's pretty much impossible to podium if you're caught, it should also be more difficult to get away with of course but it costs nothing to up the penalties. If the detection and punishment is minimal it's easy to see it as de-facto acceptance of drafting, as long as you don't take the piss.

Chartsengrafs

tunney wrote: »

Some clubs promote drafting.

I find that very hard to believe?

longshank

hardCopy wrote: »

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but in many sports cheating is considered part of the game. In rugby it's part of a back row forward's job description to test the referee at every opportunity and cheat until your caught, this could probably be eliminated if sin-bins were handed out more readily but it's really just seen as part of the game. In race walking they ignore the fact that racers are technically running and only call it when it's visible to the naked eye. Ice hockey penalises fighting but not so much that it'll ever be removed from the game.

Why do people see drafting in triathlon as this big dirty thing?

I came to triathlon from rugby, where I was a was a persistent and proud cheat, I'd pull jerseys, lie off side, hold onto the ball, hold onto the opposition, trip people up, whatever I could do to get an edge or even just annoy someone for the craic. Neil Back was a hero of mine. (I drew the line at what I considered dirty: gouging, biting etc.)

As a triathlete I never draft, if someone passes me and pulls in right in front I'll deliberately drop back rather than take my time about it. I'm not sure why I view this differently to rugby, but I do.

For some reason I have a different attitude to tri than I did to rugby and the more I think about it the more it seems logical to draft. It's effective, it's badly policed and the sanctions are arguably less than the benefit of the act.

If the tri community really wants to stop drafting then the penalty should be large enough that it's pretty much impossible to podium if you're caught, it should also be more difficult to get away with of course but it costs nothing to up the penalties. If the detection and punishment is minimal it's easy to see it as de-facto acceptance of drafting, as long as you don't take the piss.

I get ur point but I think there is a big difference between a tactical team sport like rugby where the law is the referees interpretation and you play accordingly and one like triathlon where the rules are very clear and you either decide to cheat or u dont. if u want to talk about organised cheating i think there are much better examples in the media recently from the gaa! Maybe it comes down to the ethos of the sport?

Shedite27

longshank wrote: »

I get ur point but I think there is a big difference between a tactical team sport like rugby where the law is the referees interpretation and you play accordingly and one like triathlon where the rules are very clear and you either decide to cheat or u dont. if u want to talk about organised cheating i think there are much better examples in the media recently from the gaa! Maybe it comes down to the ethos of the sport?

Totally agree, but Triathlon has referees, they just aren't imposing the penalties.

In competitive sports, giving away frees is part of the game. If you are a defender who never gives away a free, you probably aren't tackling as hard as you could be. Similarly in tri, if you never get caught drafting, chances are you aren't pushing as far as you could be.

It's not a popular opinion, but that's the reality.

P2C

most of the Age group races in Europe are ITU format for all groups. Maybe we could solve the drafting issue by running a series of ITU format races for the top end . Maybe for the national series races or have a separate series

Again 1000 people in yesterdays race on a 8km bike circuit. Had to be impossible not to get caught in a group.

Race organisation at the moment is about how much money club's, private companies, charities and other sports can make from running an triathlon. How many people they can get in an event. If it wasn't why would they bother running races.

The smaller triathlons I have competed in this year with 100-150 in the race seem to have less of a problem with drafting

hardCopy

Shedite27 wrote: »

Totally agree, but Triathlon has referees, they just aren't imposing the penalties.

In competitive sports, giving away frees is part of the game. If you are a defender who never gives away a free, you probably aren't tackling as hard as you could be. Similarly in tri, if you never get caught drafting, chances are you aren't pushing as far as you could be.

It's not a popular opinion, but that's the reality.

A certain amount of foul play is expected in sports like rugby and GAA, the governing bodies could dish out red cards for every clumsy tackle but that would remove the physicality that's always been part of those game.

Breaking someone's leg is not in the spirit of the game so over the top violence is harshly punished and the effect on your team's chances of success is immediate and long lasting. E.g. a red card and/or suspension.

A late hit or a shoulder to the chest is considered a foul but will usually only incur a yellow card and as such it's seen as a legitimate tactic to be used sparingly.

Why are physical players considered to be street-smart in field sports but triathletes who draft are considered to be morally corrupt.

If drafting is such a bad offence and so outside the spirit of the sport then why use time penalties at all, why not just DQ anyone who drafts?

Kurt Godel

Shedite27 wrote: »

Totally agree, but Triathlon has referees, they just aren't imposing the penalties.

In competitive sports, giving away frees is part of the game. If you are a defender who never gives away a free, you probably aren't tackling as hard as you could be. Similarly in tri, if you never get caught drafting, chances are you aren't pushing as far as you could be.

It's not a popular opinion, but that's the reality.

Comparing to other sports (I presume you mean "team sports" when you refer to "competitive sports") is a red herring. Tackling and free's aren't part of Triathlon. Drafting is much closer compared to cutting a corner or sitting out a lap. It's not for the benefit of any team, its a direct cheat on the other competitors (who may well be pushing as far as they can be).

Aside from that, I've only done one season of Tri's, but I note a lot less drafting in any races where Eamonn T gave a loud and clear race briefing demonstrating what 10 meters is and emphasising penalties and DQ's will be handed out. Much less drafting in those races IMO.

miller82

tunney wrote: »

Some clubs promote drafting.

That's some statement