A 42in Monitor doesn't require a TV License

Tautas

Hey folks,

I'd like to run an idea past you that's been kind of bothering me enough lately to make a post here.

So here's the situation. I don't have a TV (haven't had one in 3 years) but been thinking of getting one now. The setup I'd like to put in place is a 42in TV + Apple TV to watch my Netflix, Channel 4, BBC Player, TED, Podcasts and etc + waste some time on a PS3 every now and again. Now every TV set in Ireland requires a TV license, however looking at that setup, I think it would be absurd to pay a TV license, no?

Yeah, yeah, I know - another nutcase about his TV License, but please hear me out.

According to Broadcasting Act 2009, section 140, TV license is needed for:

“television set” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving
and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general
reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on
the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or
assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus;

Essentially that says a TV license is required for any TV set that has a TV Tuner capable of receiving a TV signal.

Now back to my situation. So it happens I don't want to watch TV (some people do, and I don't) broadcasted via aerial, UPC, Sky or whatever and instead I just want to get a big screen to watch my usual stuff that I've been watching on a 27in Apple display for years.

So just to reiterate my understanding of TV License requirement:

- If I want to watch UPC / Cable / Satellite / Aerial via a TV Tuner in a TV Set - I require to have a TV License
- If I want to watch stuff online on my Laptop / Apple TV / Monitor which don't have a TV Tuner - I don't require a TV License

Would that be a correct interpretation of the law?

If so then here's what I'm thinking - this is super simple! - I just need to get a very large monitor! Did a bit of googling and found this 42in bad boy on Amazon:

ViewSonic CDE4200-L Full HD Professional Display Featuring, LED Panel Technology, Hospitality Calibration Features
Price: 650usd = 500eur + 100eur for delivery.

A little bit more expensive than getting a regular 42in LED TV at the local shop but still reasonable, right?

So here's the catch - if I buy myself this monitor I get to watch the stuff I want and save 160eur per year for the TV License that I don't need. In 3 years time this pretty much pays for itself in the savings I make...

Now tell me this - am I missing something in this equation or does it sound like a great deal?

I'd really appreciate so hear some constructive comments on this subject!

PS. To make this post relevant to "Entrepreneurial & Business Management" forum I'd like to note that if all goes well and I'm happy with the quality of the product, I'd be thinking of bringing in a container of these lovely "Signage Displays" and running a massive promotion on some Groupon site to get rid of it all.

Thanks!

peter_dublin

The only problem is no everyone is as into technology as you and as soon as you own a skybox, upc box, Saorview Tuner, put a tv tuner in your PC you have the have a tv license and as such for the waste majority it is of no more use than a smart tv which can be bought for about the same and have a more better name to consumers such as Samsung.

Graham

Does your price estimate include VAT? Is there any duty to be paid on televisions/monitors?

Regardless of that, it is expected that legislation will be passed to bring in the broadcasting charge from next year. This charge will apply to every household regardless of whether they have a television or not.

Gambler

Graham wrote: »

Does your price estimate include VAT? Is there any duty to be paid on televisions/monitors?

Regardless of that, it is expected that legislation will be passed to bring in the broadcasting charge from next year. This charge will apply to every household regardless of whether they have a television or not.

Yeah, soon any house that has a tv, computer, internet connection etc. will be required to pay for a broadcast license..

Tautas

@peter_dub
Fully appreciate that the market for people with habits is small today, but I'm sure you'd find a few geeks around who enjoy quality paid online services At the same time I'm confident that such habits will become more and more widespread over the next year or two. If you bundled the Monitor together with various online services (Netflix, BBC Player, RTE Player, Sports packages) + an Apple TV or equivalent unit it might become much more appealing to wider audiences right away.

@Graham & @Gambler
The business model might have to be worked out a little bit more but I agree that there might have been duty tax on that as it was sold in US. I had a look and viewsonic have a number of partners in UK and Netherlands too so I'm sure there's a way to go around that by importing from EU. I could also buy the Screen as my business expense, so personally that would bring the cost down even more.

As for the legislation on "broadcast license" I'd have to say that I've been hearing about this for the last 5 years at least but it's still not here. Would you have an official link for that? On the second hand I'd be very interested to see how such would be implemented as it does not make sense to me. In essence the TV License tax has been introduced back in 1949 or something like that to support the programming and content production for the national broadcaster. I find it very hard to believe that they could just introduce a tax now to charge my mom for booking Ryanair flights on her computer once a year, of which all the proceeds would go to support RTE programming??? That just doesn't make sense. If I don't use the service - I shouldn't pay for it. What ever happened to free markets and democracy? As I said - I find it very hard to believe that such legislation will go through, especially in a form of extending the lifecycle of TV License Tax.

So I guess that's the biggest challenge to this concept. If that can be overcome or rulled out as "threats and promisses" by the government, then the route is open to shipping a container of the good stuff

Thanks guys!

Graham

Regardless of the 'threats & promises' of proposed legislation;

Product + shipping + insurance + duty + VAT + financing costs of stock on order and in hand + warranty/repairs + returns = no profit margin.

DubTony

Tautas wrote: »

I find it very hard to believe that they could just introduce a tax now to charge my mom for booking Ryanair flights on her computer once a year, of which all the proceeds would go to support RTE programming??? That just doesn't make sense. If I don't use the service - I shouldn't pay for it. What ever happened to free markets and democracy? As I said - I find it very hard to believe that such legislation will go through, especially in a form of extending the lifecycle of TV License Tax.

So I guess that's the biggest challenge to this concept. If that can be overcome or rulled out as "threats and promisses" by the government, then the route is open to shipping a container of the good stuff

Thanks guys!

I find it very hard to believe that they could introduce a tax that takes up to 10% off the top of your wages ... but they did.
I find it vary hard to believe that they'd introduce a tax you paid on almost everything you bought ... but they did.
I find it very hard to believe that the tax just mentioned could be added to the price of a car AFTER they'd added a different tax ... but they did.
I find it very hard to believe that they'd put a tax on your property irrespective of your ability to pay ... but they did.

I find it hard to believe that your mother doesn't watch telly when she's not flying the unfriendly skies

The democracy we live in a representative, so what they say goes. The only free markets are in ... eh ... oh ... hang on ... I'll think of one ...

And buying container loads of things in the hope that the government is lying to us probably isn't a great idea, especially when they're talking about tax.

Peterdalkey

But in the meantime........!

K.Flyer

Is the answer to your query not in your OP.

“television set” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving
and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general
reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on
the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or
assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus.

"Any Apparatus" really covers a multitude of items and "Exhibiting" would cover what is actually on the screen irrespective of how it got there.
In principle, I am against the licence, but those definitions pretty much cover the angles.

Peterdalkey

Not sure why OP posted this topic on this forum!!

Most computers are NOT capable of receiving a regular TV signal as broadcast and up to now are thus not covered by the legislation requiring a TV licence.
A cheaper way might be to have an electronics wizard remove the signal receiving gubbins of a regular 42" TV. Then you can have any brand you like! If the law is eventually changed, get him to refit the bits!

Tautas

@TonyDub you got me on my mom's example In my defence I was trying to illustrate the point for how absurd it would be to tax her for having a laptop and use that money to fund the national TV service she doesn't use.

Your're also right in making the point though that our government has a history of been extremely successful in introducing various taxes that are illogical or do not comply with EU regulations.

I guess there are two underlying messages in my initial post:
1. Can I take advantage of this model for my personal use.
2. If so, then can it be scaled up for others to take advantage or if as well.

I started the discussion not prove that my model works but rather to open a conversation to whether my media consumption habits (which I'm sure are becoming more and more common these days) bundled with this particular approach to the actual viewing device could exploit a loophole allowing people to bypass the TV License tax. With this assumption proved a number of different business cases could be further explored.

@peterdalkey I decided to post on this forum cause I felt the audience might be more business savvy and open minded to see the opportunity in the post rather than getting into the usual discussions that this subject gets on other forums.

From reading up on this subject in the past I would have been of a similar opinion to yours @PeterDalkey that its the devices that can receive a physical TV signal (that is have a TV tuner) that need a license. Otherwise laptops would have been licensed for a long time already. However I've read somewhere that just removing the unit doesn't exempt you from the license as the TV License guy can't be sure the unit has been taken out and at the same time you can just put it back in when you please. So that's why I went to look at signage displays and monitors which don't seem to need a license as they've no tuner to receive a TV signal.

@K.Flyer I know - this does indeed sound fairly sown up... So I guess what needs to be studied here is the phrase "Television broadcast services".

Here's what it says on citizens information website:

Every household, business or institution in Ireland with a television or equipment capable of receiving a television signal (using an aerial, satellite dish, cable or other means) must have a television licence.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/media/tv_licences.html

Judging by examples, that sounds like a its referring to devices that have an input port to take in a signal?

And a little bit more from the Rules section:

If your household, business or institution possesses a television or equipment capable of receiving a television signal, you are required by law to have a television licence. Even if the television or other equipment is broken and currently unable to receive a signal, it is regarded as capable of being repaired so it can receive a signal and you must hold a licence for it. Failure to produce evidence of a television licence to an inspector can result in a court appearance and on conviction, you can receive a substantial fine. People who have been fined and who have breached court orders directing them to pay their television licence can be imprisoned.

You do not require a television licence to watch television on your computer or mobile phone. However, the computer must not be able to receive a signal distributed by conventional television broadcasting networks, for example, cable, satellite or aerial.

Based on this it sounds like we should have a green light for my proposed model as it fully complies with the rules?

Peterdalkey

If you remove the receiver gubbins from a TV set, it is not "capable" of receiving the prescribed signal. If you remove the engine from a Velo Solex motorbike (http://www.google.ie/imgres?sa=X&biw=1280&bih=887&tbm=isch&tbnid=XZLvCOnKRGEeMM:&imgrefurl=http://cj750m.en.made-in-china.com/product/jbfnmPLDJlce/China-Velosolex-Moped-3800-.html&docid=Iv3ZkeHpAFUb0M&imgurl=http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00NMfaQPIWalkB/Velosolex-Moped-3800-.jpg&w=1024&h=683&ei=sp_SUeO3Bqnm7AbF-ICgDg&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:5,s:0,i:100&iact=rc&page=1&tbnh=178&tbnw=266&start=0&ndsp=15&tx=132&ty=86 ) .......it is now a bicycle!! If you are going to be creative, go the whole hog!! If you are challenged, just show them the removed parts!!

Graham

Tautas wrote: »

Based on this it sounds like we should have a green light for my proposed model as it fully complies with the rules?

You appear to have lost sight of the fact that you won't make any money doing this.

I could be wrong, perhaps you will find customers who are prepared to pay a significant premium for what is essentially a crippled television.

You could go one better, import cars with no engines. Think of the potential tax saving there.

listermint

K.Flyer wrote: »

Is the answer to your query not in your OP.



"Any Apparatus" really covers a multitude of items and "Exhibiting" would cover what is actually on the screen irrespective of how it got there.
In principle, I am against the licence, but those definitions pretty much cover the angles.

note that it states receiving and exhibiting not 'OR'

receiving means the unit itself would have to have tuner inside it. So be definition no the angles are not covered.

However this is all due to change with Rabbites proposed Internet Tax just another way to bleed money out of people who dont have it. i.e. the people that dont pay it already will continue not to and the people that dont have TVs will be forced into a new tax.

Peterdalkey

Sadly on the business opportunity element, you could be cleaned out by a "Tuner Disabler Service" !!

Peterdalkey

Warming to the topic, you would want to make sure that none of your ancillary equipment, VTRs or DVD players etc have any tuning capability or you would likely fall foul of the law.

You do not need a licence for a stuffed dog or even a bionic one, yet!

DubTony

Tautas,

I've already got a similar setup in my house. We have no cable or Satellite TV, so the TV is just a big monitor since the digital switchover. We use Netflix, and iTunes to get the TV we want. The Players on the iPad send the signal through the Apple TV so we can watch whatever the TV stations choose to put online. I'm a baseball fan and pay an MLB subscription every year for my sports. It's a great setup and we don't miss the crap that's forced through every evening as we have even more choice (those 100 channels never had anything on anyway;)). Obviously my TV is capable of receiving a signal so I pay the licence as the government doesn't care if I get the signal or not.

As a business idea, it would have been good a few years ago. But having said that, the content wasn't available. It would make sense if there wasn't any uncertainty, but even allowing for a 10 year delay in Rabbitte's proposed household broadcasting charge, you couldn't charge any more than 10 years worth of TV licence. Peter's idea of removing the bits that take the signal would reduce the price somewhat, but the uncertainty of when the tax is introduced makes it a risky proposition.

Note that all the TV "Players" became available around the same time. Even RTE were quick off the mark (this is the organisation that was still sticking cloud and sunshine stickers on a board years after the BBC had introduced green screen tech to the weather forecast). State broadcasters had to get on board with Players as there'll be a similar broadcasting charge all over Europe. Pat Rabbitte's not on a solo run here.

DubTony

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Warming to the topic, you would want to make sure that none of your ancillary equipment, VTRs or DVD players etc have any tuning capability or you would likely fall foul of the law.

You do not need a licence for a stuffed dog or even a bionic one, yet!

It must be nearly time to drag this thread off topic.

Naki'o, household pet, a dog barely alive. Gentlemen, we can rebuild him, we have the technology, we have the capability to make the worlds first bionic dog. Naki'o will be that dog. Better than he was before. Better, Stronger, Faster.

Daa daa daa daaaaa, daa daa daa daa daa daa daa daa daa


And now that I've put it in your heads, and I know you all want to ... (you younger guys can now see what we were paying a licence fee for in the 70's) Here It Is