egypt about to collapse??

eireannBEAR

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Eh...?

No idea how that's relevant to what I said.

you said every one hates the brotherhood as if that means muslim extremist wont bomb in their name,at the end of the day an islamic republic was brought down,you are being silly if you believe egypt will just dance away in to the sunset untouched.

partyatmygaff

eireannBEAR wrote: »

you said every one hates the brotherhood as if that means muslim extremist wont bomb in their name,at the end of the day an islamic republic was brought down,you are being silly if you believe egypt will just dance away in to the sunset untouched.

The only Islamists who will do anything for the Brotherhood are the Brotherhood members themselves. You're mistaken if you think other Islamists will rush to their aid. The biggest and worst of them all, the Salafists would see this as an opportunity for them to try and seize power.

The Muslim Brotherhood and terrorism have a long history but with the military and police on heightened alert and considering they've managed to keep them restrained for decades before it's not impossible to imagine them keeping peace.

Jonny7

One pro-Morsi supporter reportedly shot dead by security forces outside the officers club

Reekwind

partyatmygaff wrote: »

The Muslim Brotherhood and terrorism have a long history but with the military and police on heightened alert and considering they've managed to keep them restrained for decades before it's not impossible to imagine them keeping peace.

"Restraining" that required a corrupt dictatorship and flagrant anti-democratic practices. Neither of which inspires hope in the future

partyatmygaff

Reekwind wrote: »

"Restraining" that required a corrupt dictatorship and flagrant anti-democratic practices. Neither of which inspires hope in the future

You don't need a corrupt dictatorship to restrain and control a terrorist organisation.

wes

Jonny7 wrote: »

One pro-Morsi supporter reportedly shot dead by security forces outside the officers club

Hopefully that remains an isolated incident, and doesn't kick off further violence. The coup is imho off to a very bad start, with the mass arrest of Muslim Brotherhood leadership, and the arrests of various members of the media.

Reekwind

partyatmygaff wrote: »

You don't need a corrupt dictatorship to restrain and control a terrorist organisation.

You do need an dictatorship to suppress a mass movement and the Egyptian military is not a shining beacon of fiscal transparency

cyberhog

African Union suspends Egypt after Morsi's ouster

The African Union suspended Egypt from the continental body on Friday after the ouster of president Mohamed Morsi, in line with its strict rules against unconstitutional changes of government.

The AU's Peace and Security "council decided to suspend the participation of Egypt in AU activities until the restitution of constitutional order", said an official statement.

"The council reiterates the AU's condemnation and rejection of any illegal seizure of power," the statement added.

"The overthrow of the democratically elected president does not conform to the relevant provisions of Egypt's constitution, and therefore falls under the definition of an unconstitutional change of government."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/African-Union-suspends-Egypt-after-Morsis-ouster-Israel-welcomes-move/articleshow/20929450.cms

So first the Army illegally seize power and then they start shooting and killing pro-Morsi protesters. This is not going to end well.

old_aussie

Sexual assault cases in the last 4 days in tahrir square is nearing 100.

A Dutch reported was gang raped, requiring hospitalisation.

What a joke the people of egypt are, fighting for democracy and they act like animals.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/75584/Egypt/Politics-/-sexual-assualt-cases-over--days-in-Egypts-Tahrir-.aspx

Jonny7

old_aussie wrote: »

Sexual assault cases in the last 4 days in tahrir square is nearing 100.

A Dutch reported was gang raped, requiring hospitalisation.

What a joke the people of egypt are, fighting for democracy and they act like animals.

There are groups of Egyptians who go to the protests specifically to defend women from sexual attacks.

The above post is pretty idiotic, the attitude toward women in countries like Egypt and Pakistan is pretty archaic compared to Europe where we have had suffragette movements, equality and rights development for decades.

Nodin

old_aussie wrote: »

Sexual assault cases in the last 4 days in tahrir square is nearing 100.

A Dutch reported was gang raped, requiring hospitalisation.

What a joke the people of egypt are, fighting for democracy and they act like animals.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/75584/Egypt/Politics-/-sexual-assualt-cases-over--days-in-Egypts-Tahrir-.aspx

Don't generalise, whatever you do.

eireannBEAR

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Why would there be a bomb attack by the weekend?

The people already hate the Muslim Brotherhood, if they try and bomb anything all they'll do is stir up even more hate for themselves. If they wanted to scare away people from protesting to save their position, they could have done something on or before the 30th June but they couldn't and didn't.

two days in and we already have miltary death squads...we are well on course for my prediction arnt we??

Nodin

eireannBEAR wrote: »

two days in and we already have miltary death squads...we are well on course for my prediction arnt we??

You've a source for that?

take everything

The Muslim Brotherhood as a democratic entity?
LOL.
Maybe if they changed their name to the secular unisex party they'd have more luck.

An Coilean

take everything wrote: »

The Muslim Brotherhood as a democratic entity?
LOL.
Maybe if they changed their name to the secular unisex party they'd have more luck.

Democracy =/= equality or secularism so i'd say you are fairly wide of the mark there.

take everything

An Coilean wrote: »

Democracy =/= equality or secularism so i'd say you are fairly wide of the mark there.

Democracy.

No theo; no frater; no patri.
Just demos.
So the Muslim Brotherhood is the antithesis of this.

And of course western democracies are far from perfect (in terms of the theo/patri aspects) but proper democracy (for me at least) should mean equality (in terms of gender etc) and not be tied up with religion (private beliefs notwithstanding obviously).

So these lads are just taking the piss.

Jonny7

Building a democracy is more than just having an election - there are so many fundamental and underlying factors.

In Egypt they have had to try to rip out decades of corruption and cronyism on a scale we can't even fathom, it's a very laborious difficult process

On top of all that, they have to strive to build a secular government in a state that is quite religious

Will Egypt ever be equal to a country like Finland in terms of equality, opportunities, rights, stability and so on? unlikely in our lifetime.

mike65

Mohammed ElBaradei (ex UN nukes inspector) is the new interim PM.

cyberhog

Doubts over ElBaradei's appointment as Egypt PM

Egypt's new president says pro-reform leader Mohamed Elbaradei has not yet been appointed as interim prime minister despite earlier reports.

A spokesman for interim President Adly Mansour said consultations were continuing.

Officials had earlier named Mr ElBaradei - a former head of the UN's nuclear watchdog - for the post.

News of his appointment had been criticised by the Salafist Nour Party, which said it would not work with him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23214310

wes

Things are probably going to get a lot worse. Muslim brotherhood protester have been massacred:

Massacre in Cairo deepens Egypt crisis

The military have screwed up big time, even if there not behind it, and its is the Anti-morsi protesters who are behind this, this kind of massacre, could lead to retaliations, which will then lead to more retaliations, and we then end up with a horrible cycle of violence.

The Egyptian military need to get it together, as there in charge now, and all this is on there heads, one way or the other.

BuilderPlumber

Egypt is in a mess at the moment. Looks like a slide towards a situation similar to Libya and Syria. Extremists of course will take advantage of the rivalry between the military and Muslim Brotherhood factions. It is this that will really have the worst affects and god knows where things will end.

The Arab Spring has not been a success in general. With regard to Egypt, the old regime was never really toppled. The military still had more power than Morsi and we see this now. But the military will not be forgiven by organising what opponents call a coup.

Egypt was up until 2011 seldom painted as a dangerous country. Images os pyramids, pharoahs and an ancient civilisation made it a number one tourist spot. In reality, it has shown itself to be a very dangerous place with years. Nasser was the father of all the anti-West Middle Eastern dictators and where Saddam, Assad, Gadaffi, Khomeini, Bashir and others took their inspiration from. Nasser and his successors Sadat and Mubarak were not afraid to take on and imprison opponents. Sadat of course got himself killed for making peace with Israel, which angered both Islamists and Arab Nationalists alike. Nasser, who trusted Sadat, would turn in his grave. Mubarak continued Sadat's policy of friendship with the West and Israel and his reign saw many attempts by terrorists to hurt Egypt's tourist industry. Like when tourists were shot to death on a boat. We must also remember that current al Qaeda leader Zawahiri is Egyptian too. So, the events of 2011 were not surprising but what was was how peaceful it was then. What is happening there now is what I would have expected in 2011.

old_aussie

wes wrote: »

Things are probably going to get a lot worse. Muslim brotherhood protester have been massacred:

Massacre in Cairo deepens Egypt crisis

The military have screwed up big time, even if there not behind it, and its is the Anti-morsi protesters who are behind this, this kind of massacre, could lead to retaliations, which will then lead to more retaliations, and we then end up with a horrible cycle of violence.

Seems to be a trend in the middle east.

Now it's all the fault of the West that they let the army take over.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/egypt-s-mulsim-brotherhood-feels-coup-against-mohamed-morsi-will-fuel-hatred-towards-west-388930

Mohamed El-Beltagi, a senior Brotherhood politician, said everyone would lose, including the West, from violence that could result from the removal of Morsi

His remarks point to Islamist anger at Western states over their failure to punish the military for toppling Morsi in a move spurred on by mass protests against his rule.

As usual the west gets the blame for not instantly acting to punish the army.

What, do these muslims expect the west to do to punish the army, no really.

BuilderPlumber

Jonny7 wrote: »

Building a democracy is more than just having an election - there are so many fundamental and underlying factors.

In Egypt they have had to try to rip out decades of corruption and cronyism on a scale we can't even fathom, it's a very laborious difficult process

On top of all that, they have to strive to build a secular government in a state that is quite religious

Will Egypt ever be equal to a country like Finland in terms of equality, opportunities, rights, stability and so on? unlikely in our lifetime.

The problem is the term democracy does not mean anything. All (or most) countries are dictatorships when the chips are down. They only are democratic really when the economy is flying high and they can give money and resources to the people without it impinging on the regime's own lifestyles. We have seen this here in Ireland, which is a dictatorship but in comparison to the Middle East and Africa, we would be considered democratic. More democratic perhaps, but still not a democracy.

Egypt has been a volatile country for decades with a military dictatorship since the days of Nasser creaming it at the expense of the poor and keeping the people down. Nasser's successors Sadat and Mubarak were internationally more moderate but not any less corrupt and dictatorial. The West welcomed the latter 2 compared to the former (the man who practically invented the rhetoric that came out of Saddam's Iraq and Gadaffi's Libya, etc) but it did not improve the lot of Egyptians. Great hope was put into the Muslim Brotherhood, a moderate Islamic party. They tried to bridge the gaps in Egyptian society. However, they isolated 2 main groups that remain poles apart: the secular and the al Qaeda-type extremists. Morsi was ousted by the military for their purposes for sure but you now have a dangerous situation where the fight is now between secularists and far more hardline Islamists.

The enemies of democracy and allies of dictatorship are corruption, cronyism and events like economic collapse and war. Egypt has seen all of these at various points in its recent history. True, it takes years to build a democracy (and its not about voting - the politicians should obey their promises to the voters otherwise it is still a revolving faces dictatorship). We here in Ireland have had nearly 100 years to get our act straight and we still have not arrived as a democracy so Egypt (a country that up until recently did not even pretend to be a democracy) has a long way to go.

Jonny7

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

All (or most) countries are dictatorships when the chips are down.

Stopped reading there, thanks

old_aussie

wes wrote: »

Things are probably going to get a lot worse. Muslim brotherhood protester have been massacred:

Is that the ones(muslim brohood) who were running around using the crowd for cover while firing handguns at the police and army.

cyberhog

Mohammed Elbaradei, Egypt's Interim VP, Resigns After Violent Crackdown On Protests

CAIRO, Aug 14 (Reuters) - Egypt's interim vice president, Mohamed ElBaradei, resigned on Wednesday after the security forces violently broke up protest camps set up by supporters of the deposed president, Mohamed Mursi.

In a resignation letter to Interim President Adly Mansour, ElBaradei said that "the beneficiaries of what happened today are those who call for violence, terrorism and the most extreme groups".

"As you know, I saw that there were peaceful ways to end this clash in society, there were proposed and acceptable solutions for beginnings that would take us to national consensus," he wrote.

"It has become difficult for me to continue bearing responsibility for decisions that I do not agree with and whose consequences I fear. I cannot bear the responsibility for one drop of blood."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/14/mohammed-elbaradei-resigns_n_3756080.html


Egypt declares state of emergency as hundreds reported dead in crackdown

A state of emergency was proclaimed yesterday in Egypt and night-time curfews imposed across the country after security forces stormed two Muslim Brotherhood sit-ins where protesters had been demanding the reinstatement of president Mohamed Morsi deposed in early July.

The health ministry said 278 people were killed and over 2,000 wounded at the camp sites and elsewhere as Brotherhood supporters in Alexandria and Suez Canal cities, Luxor and Aswan attacked public buildings, police stations and Coptic Christian churches.

The UN estimated that casualties were much higher.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/africa/egypt-declares-state-of-emergency-as-hundreds-reported-dead-in-crackdown-1.1494475


Turkish President Gül warns "Egypt maybe dragged into irreversible chaos. "

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/egypt-risks-turning-into-syria-turkish-president-gul-warns.aspx?pageID=238&nID=52526&NewsCatID=338

You'd think people would learn from history that military coups never solve a political crisis. All they do is lead to further instability and civil war.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Sister in law is travelling to Egypt next week. She's a horrible bitch though so can't say I'm concerned.

bmaxi

Jonny7 wrote: »

Stopped reading there, thanks

While maybe not a dictatorship in classic terms, you must agree Ireland is hostage to vested interests.

wes

Watching the news yesterday, and the events in Egypt are nothing short of terrible. I think those in Egypt who supported the coup were naive (and in some cases they imho have blood on there hands), and while the grievances against the Muslim Brotherhood were legitimate, and the Brotherhood quite frankly did themselves no favours by alienating a lot of people.

However, a military coup was never the answer, and now the military have (predictably) killed 100s and imho I think it fair to say they are far worse than the Brotherhood were (who again were not great themselves). So Egypt is back to the bad old day of a state emergency, which will probably remain in effect permanently like the last time, so the military can justify there expanded powers as before.

Jonny7

This military intervention has always had underlying motive of a feud with MB and Morsi

I don't put the old guard in the Egyptian military above petty revenge