Lay off and then wage reduction

kristian12

I was temporarily laid off at the end of May and am due to go back to work on Monday, however one of my workmates who started back this week has called to say they've all been told they have to take a 10% paycut and it applies to everyone in the place.

I'm really happy to be going back to work however this paycut will make a huge difference especially as i've not had wages and now have to work a month before being paid. Can they do this without consultation?

Frank Black

kristian12 wrote: »

I was temporarily laid off at the end of May and am due to go back to work on Monday, however one of my workmates who started back this week has called to say they've all been told they have to take a 10% paycut and it applies to everyone in the place.

I'm really happy to be going back to work however this paycut will make a huge difference especially as i've not had wages and now have to work a month before being paid. Can they do this without consultation?

Do you have an existing contract of employment with the company?

If not, they can offer you employment at whatever terms they want as long as it's above the minimum wage rate.

kristian12

Yes i have a contract, I've worked for them for a number of years before the temporary lay off.

Mrs OBumble

They need to do more than consult: they need to get your agreement.

But your choices seem to be

1) agree (and look for another job in the meantime)
2) don't agree, and get made redundant. Possibly having a fight with them about getting the payout which you are entitled to.

tatli_lokma

Could be that they are reducing wages in advance of redundancies to lower their liability when the redundancies come. I know of a few places who have done this.

I think the writing is on the wall for you here and you need to start preparing for the inevitable by job hunting.

kristian12

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

They need to do more than consult: they need to get your agreement.

But your choices seem to be

1) agree (and look for another job in the meantime)
2) don't agree, and get made redundant. Possibly having a fight with them about getting the payout which you are entitled to.

Thanks for your reply, i feel I don't have much choice to about accepting it a job is a job at the end of the day.

Little Ted wrote: »

Could be that they are reducing wages in advance of redundancies to lower their liability when the redundancies come. I know of a few places who have done this.

I think the writing is on the wall for you here and you need to start preparing for the inevitable by job hunting.

That is possible i suppose. When i was laid off i was thinking i wished they'd made me redundant, not because i didn't want to work but the uncertainty of the lay off period and a family to feed was awful. At least with redundancy i know where i stand rather than just having 2 days notice of lay off like this time and now this reduction. Job hunting it is then.

kristian12

This place is getting worse, we are being told if we want to keep our jobs we will do overtime. I've never minded doing it so thats not so much of an issue and now they are changing the way we are being paid from from a bacs transfer to giving us a cheque.

Sudenly giving us cheques for our months wages seems strange to me

tatli_lokma

Definitely a company in trouble. Wouldn't be surprised if the 'cheques' suddenly start being issued late, and then shortly after you find that they bounce. Seriously, I think you need to actively start looking elsewhere. Whilst it would be nice to hold out in the hope of a redundancy pay out, it would be better to have another job to go to rather than a small redundancy payment and possibly a long period of unemployment. I hope I am wrong, but if I were you I wouldn't be hanging around to find out.

wmpdd3

How many years have you been working there?

Really another job is that way to go.

Get a glowing reference from then if you do leave, you are saving them money by leaving yourself.

kristian12

tatli_lokma wrote: »

Definitely a company in trouble. Wouldn't be surprised if the 'cheques' suddenly start being issued late, and then shortly after you find that they bounce. Seriously, I think you need to actively start looking elsewhere. Whilst it would be nice to hold out in the hope of a redundancy pay out, it would be better to have another job to go to rather than a small redundancy payment and possibly a long period of unemployment. I hope I am wrong, but if I were you I wouldn't be hanging around to find out.

I agree and have been lookng but there doesn't seem to be much out there and i suppose i'm wary of putting myself in a last in first out situation in another job.

wmpdd3 wrote: »

How many years have you been working there?

Really another job is that way to go.

Get a glowing reference from then if you do leave, you are saving them money by leaving yourself.

I've been there 12 years and they really shouldn't have a problem giving me a decent reference. I was told theres no chance of redundancy they'd rather we just walked so it seems they are trying to make life uncomfortable in the hope that we do just that.

LegacyUser

From what you have told us
a) You have been laid off for a period of time - shows the company has less work on
b) Taking a pay cut - if they have to make you redundant they will pay you less money
c) Doing over time - when other staff leave the rest of you will pick up the slack

Why does you employer want to pay you by cheque when bacs is far cheaper in regards to bank fees?
When your employer gives you a cheque it will take 5 working days to clear.
If the money is not in company account it will bounce so you will be waiting longer to get paid. Giving you a cheque means that the money does not have to be in there account on certain date to pay you. Also the company may not have the same overdraft limit that they once had.

I would advise you to look for another job. Also if you income is under a certain amount in a new job you may be able to apply for family income supplement.

amen

I was told theres no chance of redundancy they'd rather we just walked so it seems they are trying to make life uncomfortable in the hope that we do just that

but you may still get statutory which I think is 2 weeks wages for every year worked so for 12 years services thats 24 weeks.

highgiant1985

amen wrote: »

but you may still get statutory which I think is 2 weeks wages for every year worked so for 12 years services thats 24 weeks.

Is this correct?

I ask as the employee mentions they were temporarily laid off... from which they are only just returning.

I thought if there was a break in service, such as this temp lay off, that it impacts on any redundancy entitlement. i.e. I assume the employee was p45'd and rejoined as part of this temp break process therefore its a new employment.

I'm not an expert in this area though so open to correction by those with more knowledge on the matter.

tatli_lokma

no, temp layoff is not the same as being issued a P45 and breaking service.

Although as his hours and salary have reduced his statutory redundancy would also be reduced. I wouldn't be expecting even stat redundancy if the company is in trouble - OP will possibly have to chase redundancy from the government instead.

Best to try to get out of this as unscathed as possible by finding another job if they can.

the_syco

highgiant1985 wrote: »

I ask as the employee mentions they were temporarily laid off... from which they are only just returning.

This. The fact that the OP got a new contract with less pay is a worrying factor, and I think they should get it looked at by someone in the legal profession, as it seems the employer intends to only offer redundancy from the new contract date?

edit; just saw tatli_lokma's post.

It does sound like they're winding the firm, getting people to leave voluntarily and increasing the workload onto other people to get them to leave. A vicious circle.

tatli_lokma

the_syco wrote: »

This. The fact that the OP got a new contract with less pay is a worrying factor, and I think they should get it looked at by someone in the legal profession, as it seems the employer intends to only offer redundancy from the new contract date?

AFAIK (but of course OP is encouraged to get proper legal advice) being put on temp lay off and then getting a new contract shouldn't affect your period of continuous service.

As for the reduced hours:

citizens information wrote:

Reduced hours and short-time work
If you were made redundant within a year of being put on reduced hours or pay, your redundancy payment would be based on your earnings for a full week. If you are made redundant after working reduced hours for more than a year, how your payment will be calculated depends on whether you accepted being on reduced hours or not. If you fully accepted the reduced working hours as your normal week and never asked to return to full-time work, then your redundancy payment will be based on your gross pay for the reduced working hours. If, on the other hand, you never accepted the reduced working hours as your normal hours and continually asked to be put back on full-time working, your payment would be based on your normal weekly earnings.
If you have been put on short time and then are made redundant your redundancy payment may be based on your pay for a full week.
If you have a dispute about this with your employer you could make a claim to the Employment Appeals Tribunal.

kristian12

highgiant1985 wrote: »

Is this correct?

I ask as the employee mentions they were temporarily laid off... from which they are only just returning.

I thought if there was a break in service, such as this temp lay off, that it impacts on any redundancy entitlement. i.e. I assume the employee was p45'd and rejoined as part of this temp break process therefore its a new employment.

I'm not an expert in this area though so open to correction by those with more knowledge on the matter.

No i never received my P45 just the temporary lay off form.

tatli_lokma wrote: »

no, temp layoff is not the same as being issued a P45 and breaking service.

Although as his hours and salary have reduced his statutory redundancy would also be reduced. I wouldn't be expecting even stat redundancy if the company is in trouble - OP will possibly have to chase redundancy from the government instead.

Best to try to get out of this as unscathed as possible by finding another job if they can.

I am looking for another job as i can't see this one lasting much longer

the_syco wrote: »

This. The fact that the OP got a new contract with less pay is a worrying factor, and I think they should get it looked at by someone in the legal profession, as it seems the employer intends to only offer redundancy from the new contract date?

edit; just saw tatli_lokma's post.

It does sound like they're winding the firm, getting people to leave voluntarily and increasing the workload onto other people to get them to leave. A vicious circle.

I haven't got a new contract i'm still on the original one and as yet haven't officially been told i'm taking a wage reduction although i have seen the letters they handed to other members of staff saying it is across the board and we have no say in the matter and if its not acceptable then we are welcome to leave.

The atmosphere is unbearable at the moment and i'm pretty sure it's intentional from a management point of view. As i said i am looking for another job but no luck so far.

tatli_lokma

Seeing as your contract didn't change, bear in mind the above in my post:

"If you fully accepted the reduced working hours as your normal week and never asked to return to full-time work, then your redundancy payment will be based on your gross pay for the reduced working hours. If, on the other hand, you never accepted the reduced working hours as your normal hours and continually asked to be put back on full-time working, your payment would be based on your normal weekly earnings."

So keep requesting full hours and your old salary, even if it falls on deaf ears. And in writing too!

I think a chat with a solicitor would be a good idea at this stage, just to try and protect your rights in case you don't get another job before the axe falls.

Good luck!

the_syco

kristian12 wrote: »

I haven't got a new contract i'm still on the original one and as yet haven't officially been told i'm taking a wage reduction although i have seen the letters they handed to other members of staff saying it is across the board and we have no say in the matter and if its not acceptable then we are welcome to leave.

Have you gotten the letter yet, and if so, check with a solicitor if you are entitled to redundancy if you do not take the offer of continued employment under the new wage? The "welcome to leave" part smacks of "f**k off but please don't look for legal advice"...!

kristian12

tatli_lokma wrote: »

Seeing as your contract didn't change, bear in mind the above in my post:

"If you fully accepted the reduced working hours as your normal week and never asked to return to full-time work, then your redundancy payment will be based on your gross pay for the reduced working hours. If, on the other hand, you never accepted the reduced working hours as your normal hours and continually asked to be put back on full-time working, your payment would be based on your normal weekly earnings."

So keep requesting full hours and your old salary, even if it falls on deaf ears. And in writing too!

I think a chat with a solicitor would be a good idea at this stage, just to try and protect your rights in case you don't get another job before the axe falls.

Good luck!

Thanks for that information and i will certainly keep on about hours and wages, I'll see if i can get appointment for later in the week with a solicitor.

the_syco wrote: »

Have you gotten the letter yet, and if so, check with a solicitor if you are entitled to redundancy if you do not take the offer of continued employment under the new wage? The "welcome to leave" part smacks of "f**k off but please don't look for legal advice"...!

No no letter yet but i will mention it to the solicitor anyway and get his opinion on it. The welcome to leave part says it all really.

I really appreciate the advice and to be honest i'd never have thought to go and see a solicitor i'd have just accepted there was little i could do about it. In the meantime its more job hunting for me.

wmpdd3

This company could find themselves with a lot of its staff entitled to redundancies, forcing its hand into winding up the company. OP, time to find a solicitor.

Also get as much information as possible, if you are allowed phones in work, take photos of signs telling you about overtime, etc.

Get as much paperwork as possible, letters, payslips, notes etc. Grab anything that supports the store you have told here.

the_syco

kristian12 wrote: »

I really appreciate the advice and to be honest i'd never have thought to go and see a solicitor i'd have just accepted there was little i could do about it. In the meantime its more job hunting for me.

Oh, and tell no-one else about the solicitor (even workmates), until you get it sorted, so you get what you're entitled to, as opposed to mass quittings, and no money to pay anything but what the government pays you.