Allsop Property Auction Cancelled, amid organised protests

jay0109

flutered wrote: »

i dooubt that many of the borrowers foresaw themselves out of work and out of their houses so quickly, broke and homeless through no fault of their own, then their fellow country man returning with cash to good employment wishing that more of his countrymen would have their homes repossed so he could buy their home at 50% of what the former owner paid for it, the purchaser seems to forget that both he and the former owner are both paying for house, how the banks are winning.

I don't think a lot of the borrower's protesting today thought of anything except 'Profit'. It did'nt work out for them...boo hoo.
Pay your debts or declare bankrupt and give up the assets in question. But don't try and stop those of us who did'nt go mental during the false boom now try to start a life for ourselves and our growing families.

tayto lover

jay0109 wrote: »

I don't think a lot of the borrower's protesting today thought of anything except 'Profit'. It did'nt work out for them...boo hoo.
Pay your debts or declare bankrupt and give up the assets in question. But don't try and stop those of us who did'nt go mental during the false boom now try to start a life for ourselves and our growing families.

But is it not just another vicious circle?
The majority of the people there today were speculators just trying to buy now to make a profit later.
Isn't that what we have been through already and what contributed to our downfall?

washman3

jay0109 wrote: »

Don't forget Ben Gilroy....failed wanna-be politician,self-publicist and chancer who admits to not having paid his mortgage in the last couple of years>
He was stuck in the middle of them all.

And the Guards just watched on...damn this country

There's a load of them over in Galway trying to stop people cutting turf.
Some country indeed..:mad:

jay0109

tayto lover wrote: »

But is it not just another visious circle?
The majority of the people there today were speculators just trying to buy now to make a profit later.
Isn't that what we have been through already and what contributed to our downfall?

So investors should stop buying! Where are the rentals going t come from or should everyone 'own' a house whether they pay for it or not.

And so what if they want to make a profit. Most of the listings today were'nt 'family home' material.
Profits are'nt illegal in this country...yet
And as long as they did'nt have unsustainable bank loans to support their purchases, then best of luck to them

flutered

jay0109 wrote: »

I don't think a lot of the borrower's protesting today thought of anything except 'Profit'. It did'nt work out for them...boo hoo.
Pay your debts or declare bankrupt and give up the assets in question. But don't try and stop those of us who did'nt go mental during the false boom now try to start a life for ourselves and our growing families.

i am not speaking of the shysters who have no intention of paying their way, i am speaking of the honost jill and joe who busted a gut in order to fulfill a dream, but the cruel hand of fate intervened, at times the bankers knew what was in the offing, btw i am one of the joes who was advised to commit sucide by a now discraced but wealty politician, thankfully i did not borrow, nor will i, as not only do i detest banks i actually despise them as well, the old people that i knew never trusted banks, they kept what they had in a place that only they knew.

tayto lover

jay0109 wrote: »

So investors should stop buying! Where are the rentals going t come from or should everyone 'own' a house whether they pay for it or not.

And so what if they want to make a profit. Most of the listings today were'nt 'family home' material.
Profits are'nt illegal in this country...yet
And as long as they did'nt have unsustainable bank loans to support their purchases, then best of luck to them

Yes just let the greed continue. Let the prices creep up again so that they can make more profit and buy even more property. They love that word P-R-O-P-E-R-T-Y.

jay0109

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes just let the greed continue. Let the prices creep up again so that they can make more profit and buy even more property. They love that word P-R-O-P-E-R-T-Y.

so your advocating an end to property speculation?....property ownership? Should the Govt be the only player in the rental sector?

Your definitely against repossessions by the sounds of it?

What system would you like?

jay0109

flutered wrote: »

i am not speaking of the shysters who have no intention of paying their way, i am speaking of the honost jill and joe who busted a gut in order to fulfill a dream, but the cruel hand of fate intervened, at times the bankers knew what was in the offing, btw i am one of the joes who was advised to commit sucide by a now discraced but wealty politician, thankfully i did not borrow, nor will i, as not only do i detest banks i actually despise them as well, the old people that i knew never trusted banks, they kept what they had in a place that only they knew.

well best of luck trying to spot the won't pays from the can't pays.

And what of the 'honest' Joe's who bought the dream....massive houses, with extra mortgage taken out to furnish it to the last and prob throw in a X5 SUV with that mortgage as well.
Now they can't afford it as wages are down or jobs are lost.....should they get to stay on in the 'home' or perhaps downgrade to something more normal?

Check out George Mordaunt for an example of the above.

Too many issues to sort through and too many what ifs. Has to be reposessions for all that can't pay, and yes, write off the debts for the genuine hard cases....but no keeping the asset.
Thats not fair on the majority who did'nt max out big time or who bought very conservatively and now want to upgrade but can't 'cos the markets frozen

tayto lover

jay0109 wrote: »

so your advocating an end to property speculation?....property ownership? Should the Govt be the only player in the rental sector?

Your definitely against repossessions by the sounds of it?

What system would you like?

I never got into that business at all.
Bought my home, a modest one, and raised my family in it.
Resisted the efforts of my Building Society to expand, update and renovate with their offers to increase my mortgage.
Glad I didn't and always paid up on time. I own it now but have been hit with a LPT which is just to cover the greed of others.

I know people who have vast properties around the county and who would gut you for a euro. Just greedy speculators and investors. Well in with the bankers and politicians in the area and very eager to see the next "boom" start again.

We never seem to learn in this greedy land.
And I have no interest in the repossessions except that I would support the people who lost their jobs through no fault of their own and who have the greedy bailed-out bankers breathing down their necks.

hfallada

Like what did the protesters expect. The banks to turn around and say we are sorry for repossessing your home as you didnt make a payment in 12 months, here is your keys back. The auction will be held in a more secure place not time.

I have a feeling Ireland wouldnt be like the US where you put foreclosed on the for sale sign to show buyers, the house was repossessed.

Duckjob

The event managers should have ignored these idiots. Run the auction as normal, and have the gardai arrest anyone that steps over the line of a peaceful protest.

beeno67

tayto lover wrote: »

We never seem to learn in this greedy land.
And I have no interest in the repossessions except that I would support the people who lost their jobs through no fault of their own and who have the greedy bailed-out bankers breathing down their necks.

Except we own the banks, we are the banks. So it is not really greedy bankers but "greedy taxpayers" who don't want to pay more property tax to bail out others.

You want to support these people but that means paying more tax, otherwise they are just empty words

StillWaters

Duckjob wrote: »

The event managers should have ignored these idiots. Run the auction as normal, and have the gardai arrest anyone that steps over the line of a peaceful protest.

Absolutely. This has set a bad precedent for future auctions and sale of repossessions. You'd swear Allsop wanted a lot of publicity!!

ryathoe

lima wrote: »

normal capitalism will prevail.

That's a good one. If you think the last 5 years has been about "normal capitalism" prevailing you're seriously deluded.

Frank Black

flutered wrote: »

i dooubt that many of the borrowers foresaw themselves out of work and out of their houses so quickly, broke and homeless through no fault of their own, then their fellow country man returning with cash to good employment wishing that more of his countrymen would have their homes repossed so he could buy their home at 50% of what the former owner paid for it, the purchaser seems to forget that both he and the former owner are both paying for house, how the banks are winning.

People should accept personal responsibilty for their debts. This 'no fault of their own' line is tiresome and inaccurate no matter who many times it's peddled in an attemp to absolve the reckless borrowers.

Bannasidhe

Frank Black wrote: »

People should accept personal responsibilty for their debts. This 'no fault of their own' line is tiresome and inaccurate no matter who many times it's peddled in an attemp to absolve the reckless borrowers.

But balanced against that is that many people are at the pin of their collars due to being forced to be responsible for massive banking debts aimed to absolve reckless lending.

smeedyova

People who bought bog standard semi-d's for €500k and now can't afford them are also to blame for the crisis in this country. I wasn't stupid enough to buy a house during the boom, and yet I have to help pay for houses owned by people who earn €40k a year and thought "yes, I'll buy that house for €650k." It is not right to call prudent people vultures for wanting to buy repossessed houses. If you are going to do that then you need to call the people who bought houses they could never in a million years afford totally braindead, because that is what they are.

Pawwed Rig

Frank Black wrote: »

People should accept personal responsibilty for their debts. This 'no fault of their own' line is tiresome and inaccurate no matter who many times it's peddled in an attemp to absolve the reckless borrowers.

Unfortunately most people are not experts and are happy to rely on the opinion of experts when making life decisions. If I goto a GP and she recommends a course of treatment I do not have the time or the understanding to effectively argue for an alternative course of treatment.
The same was true when people are buying houses. They go to a supposed expert in a bank that is considered trustworthy. They are offered a loan with repayments that, while they may be stretching themselves a little, are affordable on their current salary.
3 years down the line tax is up, salary is down, interest rates are up, property tax in, unemployment is up, social welfare is down.
Given these circumstances it is inevitable that a certain amount of people are going to struggle but still people do their best to pay the debts.

There is a huge difference imho to someone who paid huge amounts to put a roof over their head and someone who borrowed wildly for investment purposes. For both a prudent banking system would have been the best course of action. To enforce a prudent banking system needed effective regulation. There is plenty of blame to go around but I think the most blame lies at the top and decreases as you go down.

Frank Black

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Unfortunately most people are not experts and are happy to rely on the opinion of experts when making life decisions. If I goto a GP and she recommends a course of treatment I do not have the time or the understanding to effectively argue for an alternative course of treatment.
The same was true when people are buying houses. They go to a supposed expert in a bank that is considered trustworthy. They are offered a loan with repayments that, while they may be stretching themselves a little, are affordable on their current salary.
3 years down the line tax is up, salary is down, interest rates are up, property tax in, unemployment is up, social welfare is down.
Given these circumstances it is inevitable that a certain amount of people are going to struggle but still people do their best to pay the debts.

There is a huge difference imho to someone who paid huge amounts to put a roof over their head and someone who borrowed wildly for investment purposes. For both a prudent banking system would have been the best course of action. To enforce a prudent banking system needed effective regulation. There is plenty of blame to go around but I think the most blame lies at the top and decreases as you go down.

Oh please!

You're comparing a medical diagnosis with taking out a loan?
Ever hear of a calculator, you don't need to spend seven years in medical school to operate one.
If you're going to hand over responsibility for the biggest financial decision of your life to bankers, then you deserve everything you get and won't get sympathy from me.

Anyone who doesn't possess enough 'financial acumen' to work out a simple incoming vs outgoings calculation wrt their own personal finances shouldn't be trusted with a pair of sharp scissors, never mind a mortgage.

smeedyova

Frank Black wrote: »

Oh please!

You're comparing a medical diagnosis with taking out a loan?
Ever hear of a calculator, you don't need to spend seven years in medical school to operate one.
If you're going to hand over responsibility for the biggest financial decision of your life to bankers, then you deserve everything you get and won't get sympathy from me.

Anyone who doesn't possess enough 'financial acumen' to work out a simple incoming vs outgoings calculation wrt their own personal finances shouldn't be trusted with a pair of sharp scissors, never mind a mortgage.

+1

I remember seeing a couple crying on the tele a few months back because their mortgage is so high that they will never be able to afford a holiday. Well then don't buy a house you can't afford!!!

Look, I know teachers, nurses, etc., who bought houses that cost well over 600k. A primary school child could have told them they couldn't afford those houses. Ever. Recession or no recession they were always going to struggle because they made a very stupid financial decision. Not only that, but these very stupid decisions pushed house prices up on everybody else. It's still happening. Would I get the same level of sympathy that those in negative equity seem to be getting from some quarters if I went out and bought a brand new Rolls Royce that I couldn't afford? I don't think so.

Pawwed Rig

Frank Black wrote: »

You're comparing a medical diagnosis with taking out a loan?

I'm giving it as an example of the use of experts.

Frank Black wrote: »

Ever hear of a calculator, you don't need to spend seven years in medical school to operate one.

Yes. Point?

Frank Black wrote: »

If you're going to hand over responsibility for the biggest financial decision of your life to bankers, then you deserve everything you get and won't get sympathy from me.

Everyone is an expert in hindsight
Not just bankers. Financial advisors, experts on TV, senior ministers were all telling people buy buy buy. Now I'm sure you are going to dismiss all of these too but most people at the time did not have the benefit of hindsight like you do and relied on the best information available to them. In hindsight we can all see the flaws.
Equally we can say anyone who invested in bank shares deserves what they got. Anyone who had a pension who invested in bank share deserves what they got. Anyone who trusted anyone with regard to Financial advise deserves what they got.

Frank Black wrote: »

Anyone who doesn't possess enough 'financial acumen' to work out a simple incoming vs outgoings calculation wrt their own personal finances shouldn't be trusted with a pair of sharp scissors, never mind a mortgage.

I covered that in my previous post re people could afford it when they took out loan. Please read.

It seems that everyone should have known that the economy was going to collapse despite what the common wisdom was in 2000-2007

smeedyova

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It seems that everyone should have known that the economy was going to collapse despite what the common wisdom was in 2000-2007

Well, yes, it was obvious that it was going to collapse. That is what always happens.

I have a chewed Bic pen for sale. I'm asking €950 for it. Now, I would expect you to realise that that is not a good deal, even if people on the tele are telling you that it's great time to buy and a great price for the pen. Same with houses. If you're not intelligent enough to realise that a poorly build semi-d is not worth €650k, then you should be sent back to school and not to the bank to sign a mortgage.

The rest of use shouldn't have to suffer because some people believe property developers on the tele.

Frank Black

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I'm giving it as an example of the use of experts.

So irrelevant then, gald we're agreed.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Yes. Point?.

The irrelevance of your comparison, which you've already conceeded.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Everyone is an expert in hindsight
Not just bankers. Financial advisors, experts on TV, senior ministers were all telling people buy buy buy. Now I'm sure you are going to dismiss all of these too but most people at the time did not have the benefit of hindsight like you do and relied on the best information available to them. In hindsight we can all see the flaws.
Equally we can say anyone who invested in bank shares deserves what they got. Anyone who had a pension who invested in bank share deserves what they got. Anyone who trusted anyone with regard to Financial advise deserves what they got. .

It's not about getting what you deserved, it's about accepting responsibility.
I bought BOI shares when they dropped to €6 years ago. I lost money. Did I deserve to? who knows, it certainly taught me a valuble lesson though.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I covered that in my previous post re people could afford it when they took out loan. Please read.

It seems that everyone should have known that the economy was going to collapse despite what the common wisdom was in 2000-2007

You don't just look at what you can afford now when taking out a loan (at least you shouldn't) you stress test against changing circumstances such as rising interest rates, loss of income, having kids, etc etc. It's not rocket science (or medical expertise)

Pawwed Rig

smeedyova wrote: »

Well, yes, it was obvious that it was going to collapse. That is what always happens.

But that is the point. Many people did not know it was going to happen and are not aware of boom and bust cycles. This has already been discussed in this thread

smeedyova

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

But that is the point. Many people did not know it was going to happen and are not aware of boom and bust cycles. This has already been discussed in this thread

How come I knew then? I am not an economist, and I didn't seek the information out...it really was everywhere to be seen and heard. People chose to believe what suited them best, not what history and reality showed to be true.

Besides, if I am going to make the biggest purchase of my life, i.e., buy a house, then I sit down and do my sums. It's hard to find a way to defend people who didn't do that.

Pawwed Rig

Frank Black wrote: »

So irrelevant then, gald we're agreed.

How is it irrelevant?

Frank Black wrote: »

It's not about getting what you deserved, it's about accepting responsibility.
I bought BOI shares when they dropped to €6 years ago. I lost money. Did I deserve to? who knows, it certainly taught me a valuable lesson though.

You don't just look at what you can afford now when taking out a loan (at least you shouldn't) you stress test against changing circumstances such as rising interest rates, loss of income, having kids, etc etc. It's not rocket science (or medical expertise)

And generally people are accepting responsibility with 87% of mortgages still up to date. Stress testing only takes you to a certain point. No stress test in the world would have taken so many factors into account as has affected Irish wages in the last 4 years.

Frank Black wrote: »

It's not about getting what you deserved, it's about accepting responsibility.

Frank Black wrote: »

then you deserve everything you get and won't get sympathy from me.

Pawwed Rig

smeedyova wrote: »

How come I knew then? I am not an economist, and I didn't seek the information out...it really was everywhere to be seen and heard. People chose to believe what suited them best, not what history and reality showed to be true.

Good for you. You must have made a fortune on short selling then?

smeedyova wrote: »

Besides, if I am going to make the biggest purchase of my life, i.e., buy a house, then I sit down and do my sums. It's hard to find a way to defend people who didn't do that.

People did do their sums. Please see post #79

Frank Black

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

How is it irrelevant? .

Because it's not relevant.
You compared getting a medical diagnosis from a doctor to being offered a loan from a banker.
Now that I've called you out on the ridiculousness of your comparison you're affecting a 'what are you talking about?' attitude.
It was a stupid comparison, let's both agree and move on.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

And generally people are accepting responsibility with 87% of mortgages still up to date. Stress testing only takes you to a certain point. No stress test in the world would have taken so many factors into account as has affected Irish wages in the last 4 years.

Then you're not stress testing right.

smeedyova

Okay Pawwed Rig: A nurse (or anybody else) who earns say 40k a year buys a house that costs 650k. This was common. Please defend that, because I can't.

Sconsey

tayto lover wrote: »

But is it not just another vicious circle?
The majority of the people there today were speculators just trying to buy now to make a profit later.
Isn't that what we have been through already and what contributed to our downfall?

I would guess the big difference is that the people bidding at the auction yesterday were using their own money, not going to look for a bailout if it goes bad, have investigated if they can actually afford the property.

The overall impression I get from the protesters yesterday is if you were an uninformed speculator during the bubble you deserve to get a debt write off (ie: the tax payer will pick up your tab). If you are an informed speculator today, who may see value and are willing to risk investing, you are a vulture.