Allsop Property Auction Cancelled, amid organised protests

smeedyova

Sconsey wrote: »

I would guess the big difference is that the people bidding at the auction yesterday were using their own money, not going to look for a bailout if it goes bad, have investigated if they can actually afford the property.

The overall impression I get from the protesters yesterday is if you were an uninformed speculator during the bubble you deserve to get a debt write off (ie: the tax payer will pick up your tab). If you are an informed speculator today, who may see value and are willing to risk investing, you are a vulture.

+1

Pawwed Rig

Frank Black wrote: »

Because it's not relevant.
You compared getting a medical diagnosis from a doctor to being offered a loan from a banker.

I also said Financial advisor etc etc. ie use of experts. This argument is becoming circular

smeedyova wrote: »

Okay Pawwed Rig: A nurse (or anybody else) who earns say 40k a year buys a house that costs 650k. This was common. Please defend that, because I can't.

Did they? Banks were giving out 16x salary?
I would need some evidence of that. I have never heard anyone get a loan that large on a salary that low

Anyway I will need to get back to this later as I will be fired if I don't do some work this morning

For Paws

2 points occur to me from reading (quickly) this thread.

The protestors at the auction seem to believe that Allsops is a 'British' company.
The company holding the auction is 100% Irish owned and controlled.

Supporting the banks was necessary in order for our economy to function.
The money in the bank is largely that of the ordinary depositors & made up of the wages of ordinary people some of whom have mortgages with those banks.
Yes, there are also large scale 'institutional savers'. These are made up of, amongst others, institutions like pension companies & credit unions.
Would you like to see your (or your parents) pension company go bust ?
Would you prefer that your local credit union isn't calling in your loan in a last ditch attempt to stay afloat ?

We are all in this together & a quick 'I'm all right Jack' helps no one.
The people affected by recession are our people, our neighbours, our relatives, our employers, our employees, our parents & our children.

If the 'pillar' banks are so vital to our everyday economic life why don't we own & control them ?

Frank Black

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I also said Financial advisor etc etc. ie use of experts. This argument is becoming circular

Nope, you didn't and wishing won't make it so.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Unfortunately most people are not experts and are happy to rely on the opinion of experts when making life decisions. If I goto a GP and she recommends a course of treatment I do not have the time or the understanding to effectively argue for an alternative course of treatment.
The same was true when people are buying houses. They go to a supposed expert in a bank that is considered trustworthy. They are offered a loan with repayments that, while they may be stretching themselves a little, are affordable on their current salary.

jmayo

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Unfortunately most people are not experts and are happy to rely on the opinion of experts when making life decisions. If I goto a GP and she recommends a course of treatment I do not have the time or the understanding to effectively argue for an alternative course of treatment.
The same was true when people are buying houses. They go to a supposed expert in a bank that is considered trustworthy. They are offered a loan with repayments that, while they may be stretching themselves a little, are affordable on their current salary.

Are you on repeat play or what.
You have continually lined up the excuse that people were too busy just getting on with their lives to bother noticing the ponzi scheme or even doing a bit of research into probably one of the largest financial decision they were going to make in their lives.

Come on doing be disengenous.
A lot of people helped in fudging their figures in order to get more.
Yes the financial advisors/brokers/bank employees were complicit, but people themselves often knew they were stretching it.

For a start if you agreed to a 100% mortgage then you deserve no sympathy.
If you had to get a 100% mortgage then you could not afford a property in the first place.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

3 years down the line tax is up, salary is down, interest rates are up, property tax in, unemployment is up, social welfare is down.
Given these circumstances it is inevitable that a certain amount of people are going to struggle but still people do their best to pay the debts.

Nobody has anything against those ordinary people that are trying to repay their debts.
I do however think if they are under a mountain and incapable of repaying then the best thign is repossession and probably bankruptcy.

Those kinds of people were not there yesterday, but the ones who massively overborrowed often pumping up the market and who now don't want or see why they should repay their debts were there in spades.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

There is a huge difference imho to someone who paid huge amounts to put a roof over their head and someone who borrowed wildly for investment purposes.

Sometimes it is not that clear.
Whatabout those that borrow 100%, then those lobbed in extra debts onto their mortgage, those that remortgaged to buy more property.
A lot of the ones in trouble are those very people.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

For both a prudent banking system would have been the best course of action. To enforce a prudent banking system needed effective regulation. There is plenty of blame to go around but I think the most blame lies at the top and decreases as you go down.

Agreed.

Pawwed Rig

Frank Black wrote: »

Nope, you didn't and wishing won't make it so.

This is getting silly

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Not just bankers. Financial advisors, experts on TV, senior ministers were all telling people buy buy buy. Now I'm sure you are going to dismiss all of these too but most people at the time did not have the benefit of hindsight like you do and relied on the best information available to them. In hindsight we can all see the flaws.

jmayo

albert kidd wrote: »

the only scumbags are those tramps in the dail..the scumbags who run our country/sold us out to zee germans and covered up for the bankers.

bring on the protests and start to strike fear into these chancers.

Just you remember that without the Germans and other European taxpayers we would be totally fooked.

Where do you think the money for our overpaid public servants, everyone right from taoiseach, ministers, tds, first secretaries, consultants all the way down to the guys in the tax office, the ones collecting the rubbish or the money for our lavish social welfare system has come from to keep this country going ?

AFAIK nearly 70% of our tax take goes on social welfare.

tayto lover wrote: »

I have no time for Gilroy or his crew but to mention his name as a failed politician is silly when you consider what a lot of chancers and conmen we did elect in this country. That's not to also forget Alan Dukes and his failure as a board member of Anglo to mention the infamous tapes or the antics of his banking friends.

Perhaps you missed dukes in conversation with Shane Ross at a Dail Committee where he basically told Ross that he diodn't have to answer his or any other taxpayers questions.
Any standing that man had due his Tallaght strategy was well and truly destroyed that day.

tayto lover wrote: »

But is it not just another vicious circle?
The majority of the people there today were speculators just trying to buy now to make a profit later.
Isn't that what we have been through already and what contributed to our downfall?

There is nothing wrong with speculation or investment if it is controlled nd more importantly paid for by the people engaging in it.
The problem we have had in Ireland is that ones who engaged in it in the past now want everyone else to pony up to cover their losses.
Stand up me beades and take a bow.

Frank Black

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

This is getting silly

Sure is.:rolleyes:.

Quoting a subsequent post by yourself, to try to 'prove' you said something in your original post that you didn't say - yeah, you could call that 'silly'.<snip>

We can all go back a couple of pages and read the posts you know.

Anyway, I'm done arguing with someone who can't admit their wrong. You're only embarrassing yourself at this stage.

For Paws

Frank Black wrote: »

Sure is.:rolleyes:.

Quoting a subsequent post by yourself, to try to 'prove' you said something in your original post that you didn't say - yeah, you could call that 'silly'.
....or maybe 'disingenuous', 'untruthful', 'hypocritical', 'deceitful', 'devious'.....

We can all go back a couple of pages and read the posts you know.

Anyway, I'm done arguing with someone who can't admit their wrong. You're only embarrassing yourself at this stage.

This applies to both of ye.

You both had good points, but let point scoring get the better of reasonable argument.

Bannasidhe

jmayo wrote: »

For a start if you agreed to a 100% mortgage then you deserve no sympathy.
If you had to get a 100% mortgage then you could not afford a property in the first place.

I got a 100% mortgage and I am not one cent in arrears and I have never missed a payment.
I'm sure I am not the only one.

jmayo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I got a 100% mortgage and I am not one cent in arrears and I have never missed a payment.
I'm sure I am not the only one.

That's fine, you are both capable and ethical enough to honour your side of the bargain.
Many aren't and it is the ones falling into the second category I would gladly dump out in the morning.

For every one who got a 100% mortgage and are upto date with their payments how many aren't I wonder.

I can't understand why someone who is going to buy a property had no money of their own to put towards it.
IMHO it is a very dangerous situation to put yourself in because you have no equity in the property to start with.

And yes I know some of those who did have money to put down had actually just borrowed it somewhere else.

Bannasidhe

jmayo wrote: »

That's fine, you are both capable and ethical enough to honour your side of the bargain.
Many aren't and it is the ones falling into the second category I would gladly dump out in the morning.

For every one who got a 100% mortgage and are upto date with their payments how many aren't I wonder.

I can't understand why someone who is going to buy a property had no money of their own to put towards it.
IMHO it is a very dangerous situation to put yourself in because you have no equity in the property to start with.

And yes I know some of those who did have money to put down had actually just borrowed it somewhere else.

I had the down payment but the financial experts offered me excellent terms (and a tracker) which meant it made financial sense for me to avail of their largess and use my own capital to do work needed on the house as the interest rate for the mortgage was significantly less than the interest rate charged if I had gotten a 'home improvement' loan.

TBH - the 'financial adviser' in the bank didn't have a notion and my actual financial adviser was my wealthy businessman (not based in Ireland) brother.
This is why I am so critical of the banks - it was obvious the bank wanted me to borrow, borrow, borrow and were offering me silly money- they even suggested I 'needed' a far bigger house.

Some people foolishly believed the banks knew what they were doing, just like some people foolishly bought telecom shares because they believed in the 'experts'.

Me - I remember the 80s far too well to be that naive but I do have some sympathy and, as I said before, I don't think calling people 'scumbags' helps the situation...

khards

I thought of a good chant for the protestors:

"Pay up or shut up!"

worded

Bannasidhe wrote: »

3 bed house in Bray with reserve price of 155,000 - pretty cheap IMHO.

It's not worth much more. Mid terrace and doesnt look in great condition from the outside. A bit away from the main st / sea

There are rumours of canabalistic voodoo parties going on there and bones buried in the back garden.

I'm discussed with these protesters. Had my heart set on that kip I did and never got to bid with my sterling pounds / queens money

tayto lover

beeno67 wrote: »

Except we own the banks, we are the banks. So it is not really greedy bankers but "greedy taxpayers" who don't want to pay more property tax to bail out others.

You want to support these people but that means paying more tax, otherwise they are just empty words

So will all the jobless who are going to lose their homes get the same treatment as the greedy speculators i.e. jobs with NAMA and big salaries?

Duckjob

tayto lover wrote: »

So will all the jobless who are going to lose their homes get the same treatment as the greedy speculators i.e. jobs with NAMA and big salaries?

No, because 2 wrongs don't make a right.

And FWIW, I was one of the motley crew showing up at the anti-NAMA marches in Dublin city centre when NAMA was getting set up. An utterly depressing affair due to the pathetic turnout, along with the usual suspects hijacking the agenda and trying to include anti-Lisbon, anti-the Church, or anti-whatever you're having yourself.

The_Conductor

tayto lover wrote: »

So will all the jobless who are going to lose their homes get the same treatment as the greedy speculators i.e. jobs with NAMA and big salaries?

There is a difference between getting a job with NAMA, and being subcontracted to complete estates in areas where NAMA research has indicated they will eventually sell due to inherent demand. Sure- some of the salaries some of them get are rightly considered obscene- but you can count on one hand the number of developers in this lucky position.

In many cases- developers are pissing off to the UK or the US and claiming bankruptcy there (after they satisfy habitual residence rules etc). However- you or I could just as easily do the same ourselves (well, I've two very young children, so its a non-runner for me- but someone without ties could well do it).

The issue being discussed is moral hazard- and the lack thereof. People don't feel they should be made pay their debts. Fine- have that attitude if you feel like it- but someone, somewhere, is going to have to your debts- there is no invisible money tree that we can shake to magic them away. For every penny forgiven in debt, or every penny not repaid by a home owner, a speculator- or anyone else- the poor miserable, abused tax payers of this country are left carrying the can. And yes- this includes the local property tax, everyone's private pension plans that are getting raided, the levy on every insurance policy written in the country, the NPRF, etc etc etc. We have raided every kitty, and smashed every piggybox- and the cupboards are bare- but by god, the taxpayer will somehow be made pay.

The bank bailouts were obscene (given what we now know) and very possibly criminal in nature (the courts will hopefully visit this in due course). However borrowing vast sums of money to buy a house- it doesn't matter whether its your only property- or whether you own a whole portfolio of properties- and not repaying your loans, for whatever reason- is also as criminal in my mind- as the abhorrent behaviour of our bankers and politicians.

Two wrongs don't make a right- and our poor taxpayers have finite resources too- for the average person, they'd be better off on social welfare than in the workforce, this is only stymied by schemes such as the Family Income Support payment- the whole system is reprehensible.

People do deserve to be housed. They do not deserve to keep houses they cannot afford to pay for. They do not deserve to have the right to dictate where they live. They do not have the right, as unemployed people, to have a higher standard of living than some poor sod working their guts off.

As Shakespeare put it- 'something rotten in the state of (Denmark)........'

washman3

Have Allsop announced a new date for this auction.? They will probably implement a plan next time to curb the likes of Beades and Darcy. People are perfectly entitled to protest at these auctions but not to hijack the occasion for unjustifiable reasons only known to themselves.

jay0109

there's another one in mid October I remember reading somewhere....there'll be private security and Gardai on site next time you can be sure

washman3

jay0109 wrote: »

there's another one in mid October I remember reading somewhere....there'll be private security and Gardai on site next time you can be sure

Ya, saw one fixed for October but they would have had circa another 125 lots earmarked for that. They do aim for a 90% plus sales at every auction, its how they operate, they have little interest in taking lots forward to the next auction. if they do,the reserve is well lowered.
So I would imagine that yesterdays auction will be refixed for somewhere in between here and October.

FionnK86

I was protesting there, felt great getting it cancelled, selling out the poor so the banks can stay afloat. Sorry to break the painful truth people but these people protesting are friends of mine, and some are living on the street right now...

jr22

FionnK86 wrote: »

I was protesting there, felt great getting it cancelled, selling out the poor so the banks can stay afloat. Sorry to break the painful truth people but these people protesting are friends of mine, and some are living on the street right now...

It was a commercial property auction. Were your friends living in shops or offices before they moved to the street?

jay0109

FionnK86 wrote: »

I was protesting there, felt great getting it cancelled, selling out the poor so the banks can stay afloat. Sorry to break the painful truth people but these people protesting are friends of mine, and some are living on the street right now...

on the street i.e. homeless shelters or sleeping bags handed out by charities.

Oh please tell us more:rolleyes:

washman3

FionnK86 wrote: »

I was protesting there, felt great getting it cancelled, selling out the poor so the banks can stay afloat. Sorry to break the painful truth people but these people protesting are friends of mine, and some are living on the street right now...

The only people living on the streets in this country were living on them long before any Allsop auction. Are Jerry Beades and Tom Darcy living on the streets? sure their old friend Bertie could always put them up.;)
And that Gilroy dude is definitely not living on the street. He is living in a big house that he hasn't made a repayment on in 2 years.

Tigger

FionnK86 wrote: »

I was protesting there, felt great getting it cancelled, selling out the poor so the banks can stay afloat. Sorry to break the painful truth people but these people protesting are friends of mine, and some are living on the street right now...

the ones i recognised owe 160 million between them
doubt they are living on the street
but i dare you to link to one home on alsops that the former owners are on the street

The_Conductor

As per the other thread I started- the 4th of July sale has been commuted to an internet only auction (details in the other thread) and single best bids are to be submitted by e-mail by Tuesday- with winners contacted by Wednesday and closing of sale by specified dates etc. You have to register in advance with photo id etc- to prevent people spoiling the sale. Results of the auction will probably be announced in or around Monday the 15th.

EricPraline

FionnK86 wrote: »

I was protesting there, felt great getting it cancelled, selling out the poor so the banks can stay afloat. Sorry to break the painful truth people but these people protesting are friends of mine, and some are living on the street right now...

Looks like you were protesting in the wrong place. Going to admit this now? :rolleyes:

However, he pointed out that Allsop Space had a policy of not accepting forcibly repossessed family homes.
“I understand and fully respect people’s right to protest, but they were protesting at something we do not do. We are mainly dealing with commercial investments . . . of people who are [in] receivership.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/written-bids-invited-by-allsop-space-after-abandoned-property-auction-1.1454690

RATM

I wouldn't describe this new way of selling the lots via internet as an auction because it is not- an auction has price transparency and this new process lacks that. It is more of a sealed bid tender process that was common back in the Tiger days. It can cost buyers a lot more than they needed to pay if they bid €10 or even €20k over the next lowest bid. At least in an auction you are only ever going to pay a few thousand over what someone else is willing to pay.

The_Conductor

RATM wrote: »

I wouldn't describe this new way of selling the lots via internet as an auction because it is not- an auction has price transparency and this new process lacks that. It is more of a sealed bid tender process that was common back in the Tiger days. It can cost buyers a lot more than they needed to pay if they bid €10 or even €20k over the next lowest bid. At least in an auction you are only ever going to pay a few thousand over what someone else is willing to pay.

They do have AMVs- so its not quite as blind bidding, as it might be. At the end of the end of the day- if the sums don't add up- or you have any doubts whatsoever- run, run, run.

Its a pretty crap way to sell property- there really aren't any winners in the equation- and if interest is low (or non-existent) in a particular lot- there isn't the possibility of interaction with potential buyers.

I think its a safe bet that a significant portion of the July catalogue will be relisted for the October auction- and I damn hope they implement some better admittance policy that knocks protesters on the heads. (perhaps I should rephrase that- but you know what I mean).

araic88

Is there any way of seeing what prices the properties went for in the online bid?