Tracking down a mystery landlord

athtrasna

We're at the end of our tether with a landlord in our development. He owes a fortune in management fees, has nightmare tenants in the unit and has disappeared off the face of the planet.

The unit is not PRTB registered (though it has been reported many times) so can't go down that route. The landlord is not Irish but had been working as a doctor nearby when he bought the unit. He then moved to the midlands but has been gone from there for the past four years. He's not on any medical register here and internet searches have failed to bring up any trace of him. He possibly has gone back to his own country.

The tenants latest thing appears to be making money by charging people and allowing them dump refuse in our bin sheds late at night. We can't change the bin shed lock as it will lead to dumping at the gate. It's costing us a fortune in extra bin lifts.

We suspect the tenants aren't paying their own rent..but I can't see anyone from the department of social welfare revealing the landlord's details. Is there anything else we can do?

hinault

athtrasna wrote: »

We're at the end of our tether with a landlord in our development. He owes a fortune in management fees, has nightmare tenants in the unit and has disappeared off the face of the planet.

The unit is not PRTB registered (though it has been reported many times) so can't go down that route. The landlord is not Irish but had been working as a doctor nearby when he bought the unit. He then moved to the midlands but has been gone from there for the past four years. He's not on any medical register here and internet searches have failed to bring up any trace of him. He possibly has gone back to his own country.

The tenants latest thing appears to be making money by charging people and allowing them dump refuse in our bin sheds late at night. We can't change the bin shed lock as it will lead to dumping at the gate. It's costing us a fortune in extra bin lifts.

We suspect the tenants aren't paying their own rent..but I can't see anyone from the department of social welfare revealing the landlord's details. Is there anything else we can do?

Folk need to trace the landlord in whatever way they can.
I'd suggest that following whatever leads you can.

Presumably those paying rent, pay their rent in to a bank account. That bank account has a name and address of the account owner presumably.
The bank account is a lead that should be followed up.

athtrasna

The tenants won't give us the details of the bank account - and are exceptionally aggressive when approached about anything. We suspect they are on rent allowance or rent supplement (they are not Irish either and don't appear to work). No idea how we can get the bank details??

hinault

athtrasna wrote: »

The tenants won't give us the details of the bank account - and are exceptionally aggressive when approached about anything. We suspect they are on rent allowance or rent supplement (they are not Irish either and don't appear to work). No idea how we can get the bank details??

Have you asked each and every tenant renting in your development for the details of the bank account that they pay their rent in to?

Do you know of any other developments that the landlord was involved in?
if so, could you make enquiries to the tenants in those other developments, explaining your situation to them and ask them to provide you with bank account details?

A bank account would be one tangible lead that might be followed up.

athtrasna

hinault wrote: »

Have you asked each and every tenant renting in your development for the details of the bank account that they pay their rent in to?

Do you know of any other developments that the landlord was involved in?
if so, could you make enquiries to the tenants in those other developments, explaining your situation to them and ask them to provide you with bank account details?

No - the leases specify that the landlords must keep us informed if they rent out the unit, with contact details for them and their tenants. We would not be entitled to ask for bank account details?? These are the same leases that say you must pay management fees....which this landlord also ignores.

The landlord was originally an owner occupier when he was working at the local hospital, and rented it when he moved to the midlands. It's unlikely that he has any other property. Also our previous management agents managed a lot of developments in the area and he didn't own in any of their other developments.

djimi

hinault wrote: »

A bank account would be one tangible lead that might be followed up.

Unless the tenants are prepared to hand over the landlords bank details (extremely unlikely given what has been said) then this is not an avenue that is going to be of much use. Data protection would prevent the OP from obtaining them by any other means.

porsche959

Hire a private detective maybe?

Wile E. Coyote

You could always try a private investigation firm. Not sure how long it would take or cost but could be worth a try. You could also try the hospital where he worked to see if they have a forwarding address or number for him.

djimi

athtrasna wrote: »

The unit is not PRTB registered (though it has been reported many times) so can't go down that route.

Are you sure that you cannot use the PRTB? I know in the case of a tenant dispute it doesnt matter whether the tenancy is registered or not; the tenant can still use the PRTB. Id be surprised if it is not the same in this instance. Use the antisocial behaviour angle; the landlord is obliged to deal with this, and you can make a complaint about him if he doesnt.

Corkbah

do you even have a name for the landlord ?

property registration (land reg) office will allow you to check the owners name of a property, I think it costs €6.50 to check who owns a property (although it could just be areas/sections of land but it could (in theory) give you the details of the landlord, if you didn't have his name.

athtrasna

djimi wrote: »

Are you sure that you cannot use the PRTB? I know in the case of a tenant dispute it doesnt matter whether the tenancy is registered or not; the tenant can still use the PRTB. Id be surprised if it is not the same in this instance. Use the antisocial behaviour angle; the landlord is obliged to deal with this, and you can make a complaint about him if he doesnt.

We have been looking at the third party PRTB option but have little faith in succeeding with it. These tenants have cut clamps off cars, have no respect for common property or for authority or rules. The landlord has vanished so I don't see what a ruling in our favour could even achieve.

We did have our solicitor trying to trace the landlord and couldn't find him in Ireland or the UK. Will put it to the other directors that maybe we should try an investigation firm. It would be money well spent.

hinault

athtrasna wrote: »

No - the leases specify that the landlords must keep us informed if they rent out the unit, with contact details for them and their tenants. We would not be entitled to ask for bank account details?? These are the same leases that say you must pay management fees....which this landlord also ignores.

The landlord was originally an owner occupier when he was working at the local hospital, and rented it when he moved to the midlands. It's unlikely that he has any other property. Also our previous management agents managed a lot of developments in the area and he didn't own in any of their other developments.

The leases are redundant to the extent that the landlord isn't keeping you informed.
You have no means of contacting him/her and he/she is not staying in contact with you. So let's forget the lease until we find a way of directly contacting the landlord in question.

Look, a bank account is one very tangible lead to try to track down the landlord.
I'm trying to help you divine ways of trying to obtain the bank account of the landlord.

Have you gone to your local political representative to make enquiries?
It might turn up something.

My own view is that the bank account lead is the most realistic and quick way of making contact with the landlord.
It might be the case that the utility companies may have a contact address for the landlord if the properties he controls are still in his name.

If rent supplement payments are being made to the landlord by the Department of Social Welfare this could be a lead too. I don't know if that information is accessible or is capable of being disclosed to you or anyone else.

athtrasna

Corkbah wrote: »

do you even have a name for the landlord ?

property registration (land reg) office will allow you to check the owners name of a property, I think it costs €6.50 to check who owns a property (although it could just be areas/sections of land but it could (in theory) give you the details of the landlord, if you didn't have his name.

We have his name, it's quite distinctive. He is the owner of the property still unfortunately.

snubbleste

As neighbours, you can complain to the Prtb about anti-social behaviour. Check the Prtb website.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/an-end-to-residents-lengthy-nightmare-217164.html

Wile E. Coyote

If he was no longer living in the area there is a chance the rent is being paid to a third party agency/estate agent who should be looking after any maintenance to the property. Google the property address and see if any old rental ads turn up Daft, MyHome etc and contact the advertising estate agent to see if they are still looking after the property or have contact details for the owner.

You could also do a land registry search to see what that pulls up. Presumably the house wasn't bought as an investment property so the bank could be interested to know that the mortgagee isn't paying interest rates applicable to a rental property.....it's a bit of a dirty tactic but if he's not playing ball and his tenants are a nuisance then tough sh*t.

valleyoftheunos

I've seen similar cases where the Owner simply disappears out of the country. It is only when the mortgage provider secures possession of the house, removes the tenants and the rent stops go into the account that they reappear.

OP finding the landlord may not help you much as he seems unlikely to engage at all. I would suggest seeking legal advice from a solicitor to investigate the possibility of removing the problem tenants on the grounds of their anti-social behaviour. Once he stops getting paid your errant Landlord may turn up.

djimi

athtrasna wrote: »

We have been looking at the third party PRTB option but have little faith in succeeding with it. These tenants have cut clamps off cars, have no respect for common property or for authority or rules. The landlord has vanished so I don't see what a ruling in our favour could even achieve.

At least it would give you an option of going through the courts and to have these people removed properly, which by the sounds of it is more than you are likely to get from any other avenue that you have tried. Even if you manage to track the landlord down chances are you are going to have to persue him through the PRTB before you get any joy out of him, so you may as well start the ball rolling now.

Victor

There should be some grounds under which the solicitor could seek a prosecution against tenant - anti-social behaviour and littering amongst them.

Have the solicitor look at the private investigator route.

Find out what country the landlord is from and check the medical register in that country.

Have solicitor write to the main banks asking if they have a current contact details for the landlord and should a court order be sought to access those details.

gline

Even if the owner has a bank account that the rent is going into, it doesnt mean it will have the correct address on the bank account, it could have an old irish address (which he might not be in the country at this stage). Also unless you can get those details from the tenants directly, there is no way of getting those details yourself.

Is there no excuse you can you use where the land lord defintley needs to be contacted when talking to the tenants, e.g. something needs to be installed in the property that requires the owners signature? If nothing like that will work, then a private investigator or trying to take the owner to court for non-payment of fees etc is probably the only way. Also if the owner is living out of Ireland at the moment and recieving an Irish rent, there is tax issues involved too. If he isnt paying tax on the rent and neither are the tenants, then the tax man can get involved, and im sure they could track him down.

Mrs OBumble

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

I've seen similar cases where the Owner simply disappears out of the country. It is only when the mortgage provider secures possession of the house, removes the tenants and the rent stops go into the account that they reappear.

OP finding the landlord may not help you much as he seems unlikely to engage at all.

This.

It's even possible that no rent is being paid and there is no mortgage. Or that the rent is going in to the mortgage account which keeps the bank happy but that the tenants and bank genuinely don't know where to find the landlord.

If the tenants got arrested for something it might curb their style.

Ditto if some aspect of their property started malfunctioning. (Not that I'm suggesting anything here ...)

You need to get creative.

Citycap

porsche959 wrote: »

Hire a private detective maybe?

Posters who recommend contacting PRTB, Threshold etc don't realise how completely useless these quangos are.
Hire a Private Investigator and let him/her do their job. No need for you to know how it is done. I have done a bit of that work myself and I am not giving anything away when I say that checking of post boxes etc. can yield results.
The P.I.s have their own way of getting results.

djimi

Citycap wrote: »

Posters who recommend contacting PRTB, Threshold etc don't realise how completely useless these quangos are.
Hire a Private Investigator and let him/her do their job. No need for you to know how it is done. I have done a bit of that work myself and I am not giving anything away when I say that checking of post boxes etc. can yield results.
The P.I.s have their own way of getting results.

The PRTB may be relatively toothless, but one way or another if the OP wants to get this sorted without resorting to illegal means then they are going to have to engage the PRTB even if they manage to track down the landlord. A PI is not going to be able to sort this mess out once the guy has been found (not that Im saying that a PI might not be useful in finding the guy).

Eric Cartman

athtrasna wrote: »

We have been looking at the third party PRTB option but have little faith in succeeding with it. These tenants have cut clamps off cars, have no respect for common property or for authority or rules. The landlord has vanished so I don't see what a ruling in our favour could even achieve.

We did have our solicitor trying to trace the landlord and couldn't find him in Ireland or the UK. Will put it to the other directors that maybe we should try an investigation firm. It would be money well spent.

the rest of it fair enough, but private clamping is a menace and I myself , aswell as a lot of other members of the public would agree with the tenants on this.

djimi

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the rest of it fair enough, but private clamping is a menace and I myself , aswell as a lot of other members of the public would agree with the tenants on this.

A bigger menace is leaseholders who dont pay management fees. Its a real shame that so many people are sheep with their lynchmob mentality to clamping without ever stopping to think that maybe the people who impose the clamping might just have a real genuine reason for needing to resort to such measures.

athtrasna

Latest update is no luck with bank..tried to chase cheque from original payment...account closed. Our solicitor had already hired and investigator, no luck there. Name confirmed as matching land registry. Currently trying to track down their solicitor who handled their purchase. Investigating 3rd party PRTB complaint too.

Can't withdraw services, own door apartment, we could change bin shed locks but they'd dump. They've already cut a clamp off a car so that's not an option either.

Tenants got worse over the weekend too...these are the type of people that give Rent Allowance/Supplement a bad name.

peter_dublin

Actually the lock may be your way out. If you clamp it again and setup CCTV of them cutting it off you can then have them charged and bring charges for criminal damages. There was a case recently enough for this very thing. Also have you contacted the insurance company to consider removing that unit from the block policy and informing the bank of the change.

Marcusm

Does the lease provide for forfeiture in the event of non payment?

Have you tried googling or Facebook search for the distinctive name?

Were his initials ZS?

Pawwed Rig

peter_dublin wrote: »

There was a case recently enough for this very thing.

Do you have more details on this? The common wisdom is that clamping companies (other than Council authorised) will not pursue these claims. Would be interested if you had info to the contrary.

peter_dublin

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Do you have more details on this? The common wisdom is that clamping companies (other than Council authorised) will not pursue these claims. Would be interested if you had info to the contrary.

I'll try dig it out, just in work at the moment I believe it was in the motors section, the issue is not the clamp or the cost of unlocking it as you say, it was the fact they "Cut" the lock off therefore criminally damaging the companies property, the same would apply here. If you remove it without damage there is nothing that can really be done. Key is they cut the lock off.

Clamp car, set up CCTV (with Signage of course), wait for them to cut it off, call Guards as soon as they do, get solicitor involved. Demand procecution and lodge case with PTRB for anti social behaviour as with CCTV of them dumping in the grounds/selling to their mates etc.

Note: The above is very rough and there is more detail as the due course of action you need to take etc re each point but the jist is both the tenent and owner are in breech of the lease so unless you take positive action they will run wild which they seem to be doing, by the way if you feel threatened by tenents when you try meet with them that is what the guards are for but I would begin with removing services starting with parking and make sure you get evidence of any breaches of lease / criminal damage.

Edit: http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/leader-local/limerick-man-fined-for-removing-clamp-from-his-car-1-5183282

RATM

athtrasna wrote: »

We have his name, it's quite distinctive. He is the owner of the property still unfortunately.

Have you tried posting a letter with his name on it to his address ? The tenants might just be forwarding any post to him.

Also have you tried looking for him on Twitter/Facebook/Linkedin ? Also do a google search but put his name in inverted commas so it will only produce exact results to his name

Other than that a private investigator is your only chance as there isn't a hope in hell you're going to get personal details from his bank. I think they do people searches for about €200-€300, at least that was what I was quoted when I needed to track down a non-paying client last year

Lantus

The MUD act didn't go far enough IMHO in ensuring that members keep up to date details with the OMC. I'd say almost every OMC has this issue including ours and these people use estate agents and other agencies as a shield as they can hide behind them safe in the knowledge of the data protection act keeping them safe.

In terms of internet if he is a doctor and still practising he should appear somewhere. The USA has some superb tracking sites (just for that country) and internet searches are much more difficult than people realise. People often use aliases and other names to confuse things as well. Keep at it.

In terms of the tenants contact the dept of welfare and report the tenants and give the address.

Are there any services you can withdraw? Start a log with the community garda and I think CCTV could be money well spent as littering and being cuaght on film would get them a fine and court date as liter wardens love this stuff as its easy money (like parking tickets.)

Do they have an aireal or sat dish. obvisouly these are on the common buildings and as you dont have any permission from the landlord you will unfortuantley have to remove them along with any common aerial connection going to their apartment.

Also get your solicitor to give you the options as to what can be done in terms of getting them out. You have as far as I can see made all reasonable provision to contact the LL and legally its his repsonsibility to ensure he provides his address. Start the hard line approach now and make as many waves as you can.

Let us know how it goes. There is no standard solution and I'm sure every company director would benefit from any insight and eventual solution you can offer.