JD Approach to the Marathon

RunningKing

KC

You been through P&D & JD.

There's a few of us caught at the moment regarding plans for upcoming Marathons in October.
I don't want to reignite the whole "Marathon Plan by debate" thread again but - Any golden nuggets of advice on both plans?

For me - I like the JD specificity and tempo type runs, but think it may 'get' me by the end of it i.e. injury
P&D (70miles) is interesting but looks very boring compared to JD, but maybe offers a bit more in doing different paces as pace isn't specified as such.

I've read through a number of threads on marathon plans and have seen all Tergats posts, and I'm drawing a conclusion that;
(1) while a hybrid plan may be beneficial, you'd want to know what you are doing in designing it.
(2) P&D may be more suitable to a newer runner (3 years running - doing 3rd Marathon) than JD.

I know that plans are very dependent on a number of things and each person is different, but I'd like your thoughts on how you felt on each of the plans regarding it preparing you for the event in question.

Any thoughts appreciated!!

blockic

Great minds RK. Was going to ask something similar here in the next couple of days being in the same position.

KC, I've just one question to add to this in regard to Daniels plan A. I see you have jumped in at phase 2 in the past, have you ever jumped in at phase 3 or would it be too big a jump in an already demanding schedule? I'll have 12 weeks for a marathon plan starting in the next couple of weeks and I'm looking at this as an option. However I fear it may be a step too far at the moment. Would be great to get your thoughts on this based on your experiences.

BTW great session there. The 1 hour easy after a mile rep session is like a nail in the coffin!! Daniels is some man!

Krusty_Clown

I reckon you're bang-on in your summation. Personally, I wouldn't consider the JD plan A, until you have a few good years of running under the belt and can comfortably manage a series of 80+ mile weeks. It's true that there is no stipulation of mileage for the JD Plan A, but to be able to manage some of the sessions you need to be pretty robust. For example: 8 weeks into the program, you have this:
2 Mile warm-up
4 x 1 Mile @tempo with 1 minute rest
1 hour easy
15-20 mins Tempo pace
2 miles Easy

Your mileage may vary, but for me, that's a tough 19-20 mile session (as part of a 90% mileage week (in my case that's 90 miles)) and that's the first of two sessions that week. If I was facing into a tough 20 mile session like that one, I wouldn't want it to represent 30-40% of my weekly mileage. It would be too great a challenge and the risk of failure or injury would be too great. That's why I'm glad I didn't start down the road of JD, until I was successfully completing P&D plans peaking at 80-85 miles per week.

For me, the natural (and logical) evolution was: Hal Higdon, P&D, JD. Hal Higdon was a low-mileage wishy-washy kind of plan that provided a basic training structure. P&D was a highly focused/highly structured plan, that dictated the pace for every run, and provided a day by day running objective. I see JD as a high-mileage plan, which is far less structured (at this point I was far more disciplined so less need for structure) but far more intensive; those sessions are pretty damn tough (and we haven't even mentioned the elite plan).

It's worth pointing out that these aren't the only options (if TRR has read this far without giving up, he's already spitting venom, and considering going out for a late run, just to calm down). The above plan evolution worked for me, as I wasn't a member of a club and didn't have access to coaches or experienced runners who could guide me in a manner specific to my requirements or weaknesses. Instead, I followed those plans and adjusted as I went along (slowing down when I needed it, taking a break when I was injured, swapping races for sessions when I felt like it). Now I appreciate the significant value of training in groups and what clubs have to offer, so if I got a do-over, my strategy would likely be different. But, the above cycle worked pretty well for me. I have largely avoided injury (but for a 3 month spell with a calf injury and literally thousands of niggles) and this is largely down to self-preservation; slowing down when I'm in pain or suffering.

Which brings me to another point: hybrid plans. In my limited view, it's an awful idea. You can't take the bits you like from two discrete plans and call it a super-plan. Plans (generic as they are) are designed to be progressive, so that if you are attempting a particular session, it is because you have already completed a slightly lesser session previously that prepares you for the next one. By jumping from plan to plan (or skipping interim sessions) you are missing out on the building blocks that make tough sessions easier. Better to follow one specific plan (or no plan at all), rather than to try and pick specific pieces that you like and call it a strategy. Having an experienced mentor or coach will help greatly, particularly if they know you well and can provide advice specific to your needs.

Making it up as you go along? If you don't have the experience or background in running, then it's unlikely that you are training or performing to your capability (of course you might get lucky). If you're performing pretty well doing your own thing, perhaps you'd be doing a hell of a lot better with more structure? If you are an experienced runner, then you don't need book-based generic plans, as you'll understand the requirements and stimulus to get the most out of yourself or someone you know well.

Some final thoughts:
1) It's better to succeed at a sub-optimal plan, than it is to fail at a plan that is beyond your means, as failure can result in injury, over-training, or a hit to confidence.
2) It's not just about 'the best plan'. Lifestyle and commitments have to come into it to. I work a 50-60 hour week, and JD offers me the flexibility to run when I can fit it in. I don't think I could fit in a P&D 100 mile plan at the moment.
3) Everyone's mileage varies and everyone's results will be different. JD is good for me now, but I have a feeling I may need to return to P&D at some point in the future, particularly when I need to build more speed (when those 5k pace/V02max sessions will come in handy).
4) These plans are just templates. You have to adapt them and make them your own. Recognize your weaknesses and adapt the plan as necessary.
5) Racing is fun. If you're not enjoying it, you're not doing it enough.
5) smmoore, ecoli, TRR, KielyUnusual, Abhainn and countless others don't follow published generic plans and run/will run damn site faster marathons than I ever will.
6) It's not just about running. Try rock-climbing!

Krusty_Clown

blockic wrote: »

GI see you have jumped in at phase 2 in the past, have you ever jumped in at phase 3 or would it be too big a jump in an already demanding schedule? I'll have 12 weeks for a marathon plan starting in the next couple of weeks and I'm looking at this as an option. However I fear it may be a step too far at the moment. Would be great to get your thoughts on this based on your experiences.

I can jump into phase II, as I pretty much do Phase I all year around (specifically, I run 7 days a week, do strides and a long run). Personally I wouldn't advise jumping into Phase III, unless you think you can successfully complete the sessions in phase III (including that session I listed in my previous post). The first time I dipped into the JD plan (a bit of plan A, a bit of the elite plan) I think I benefited, but I under-performed on race day. I learned that there was a new way to train (beyond P&D), so it was a valuable experience. But there's no point in whacking out solid training sessions if you don't run to your potential in your race.

So with 12 weeks to go, I'd make sure you'd be comfortable running the sessions remaining in the plan, or else find another plan that is achievable (or get some good advice).

RunningKing

That's an exceptional response!

Krusty_Clown

RunningKing wrote: »

That's an exceptional response!

You should take it in the spirit of the time it was written!

ecoli

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You should take it I had spirits at the time it was written!

Drunk online coaches are the best though

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

5) smmoore, ecoli, TRR, KielyUnusual, Abhainn and countless others don't follow published generic plans and run/will run damn site faster marathons than I ever will.

I take issue with you on this point though, your consistency year in and year out despite the nature trying to put up blockades you have pushed through. That level of consistency is one that many of us should strive to and the reason why you will keep plugging forward, eroding that marathon time so I reckon there will be many of us trying to catch up with you rather than other way around

Krusty_Clown

ecoli wrote: »

Drunk online coaches are the best though

I take issue with you on point five though, your consistency year in and year out despite the nature trying to put up blockades you have pushed through. That level of consistency is one that many of us should strive to and the reason why you will keep plugging forward, eroding that marathon time

Which point five? Apparently I saw a need for two of them.

ecoli

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Which point five? Apparently I saw a need for two of them.

Fixed my post there to make it a bit more coherent

blockic

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I can jump into phase II, as I pretty much do Phase I all year around (specifically, I run 7 days a week, do strides and a long run). Personally I wouldn't advise jumping into Phase III, unless you think you can successfully complete the sessions in phase III (including that session I listed in my previous post). The first time I dipped into the JD plan (a bit of plan A, a bit of the elite plan) I think I benefited, but I under-performed on race day. I learned that there was a new way to train (beyond P&D), so it was a valuable experience. But there's no point in whacking out solid training sessions if you don't run to your potential in your race.

So with 12 weeks to go, I'd make sure you'd be comfortable running the sessions remaining in the plan, or else find another plan that is achievable (or get some good advice).

Thanks for the great responses Krusty... *goes and dusts P&D off the shelf*....think I'll hold off on Daniels for another bit until I can build up and commit to it properly.

nerraw1111

Cheers for that krusty. Much appreciated.

Krusty_Clown

blockic wrote: »

Thanks for the great responses Krusty... *goes and dusts P&D off the shelf*....think I'll hold off on Daniels for another bit until I can build up and commit to it properly.

The above is just my opinion (and I'm glad to see that I still agree wit it this morning!). Might be worth soliciting further opinions from Peckham and the theboyblunder who have both done JD Plan A on 70-80mpw (if I'm not mistaken). Also always worth getting Tunguska's opinion, as he has done the elite plan a couple of times.

Peckham

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Might be worth soliciting further opinions from Peckham and the theboyblunder who have both done JD Plan A on 70-80mpw (if I'm not mistaken).

:eek: I peaked at 60 miles last time I did it, and peaking at 75 this time (so I don't fully agree that you need to be doing major mileage to do this plan, although obviously it helps). Would be good to have a JD discussion, but it shouldn't hijack this thread. Any kind mod reading this want to move the relevant posts into a new thread?!

ecoli

Done :cool:

average_runner

Just for the people saying that the P&D gets boring, I am doing a modified veriosn of it that might help some people.

Every second week i throw a club session in for one the runs on the plan and a mid week mp pace run.
The following week i do longer tempo's hoping to hit 10 mile tempo's for endurance.


Just to vary it up a bit.

christeb

Coincidentally I had this exchange with theboyblunder this morning, I'm sure he doesn't mind me posting it up, as there's sage advice within and a good summary of both plans

1. Daniels makes you faster - ive never felt so fit over 10 miles in my life as when I followed daniels, but, you are already fast and seem to be able to generate pace off little training, so it might be focussing on areas where you are already not too bad

2. Your strong point is speed, the thing you don't like (IMO) is sustained fast running. LT stuff. P&D has lots of this. Tempos starting at 4 miles and developing to 7 over the programme, marathon pace runs etc

3. Daniels required more will power, more runs with complicated **** in them. I can remember running 10 miles of a long run waiting in dread for the killer tempo bit at the end. P&D is more old school, lots of longer runs, medium long runs in the middle of the week and decent, prescribed mileage. Its easier to follow, and mimics the slow progression to fatigue and the concentration required to combat it that you find in the marathon.

4. I followed the P&D 70 mpw, I jumped in at 13-14 weeks but did the lsrs and marathon pace runs associated with the 70-85 mpw programme. I could feel my strenght improve rather than my speed. 6:49/mile should be a doddle for you, its holding it is the key. P&D is good for this, by the end doing a 15 miler midweek just wasnt a problem at all, even though I was barely back from injury at the start.

5. I have a suspicion that daniels leaves you slightly overcooked

6. I ran a 37:50 10K at the start of the programme (prob close to what you could run now?) and 36:15 at the end, leading to 2:49

whichever you choose, once you do all sessions you will easily break 3 though, I reckon there is a way faster mara in you if you just got a consistent year or something.

Anyway, thats my two cents: P&D is less advanced, but easier to follow and might address your particular weaknesses a little better than Daniels

average_runner

Just as a quick question, is it a bad idea or an ok idea to do long tempo runs around 8-10 miles?

MisterDrak

average_runner wrote: »

Every second week i throw a club session in for one the runs on the plan and a mid week mp pace run.
The following week i do longer tempo's hoping to hit 10 mile tempo's for endurance.

Very similar to my approach, Tuesday for the tempo and Saturdays for the club session, Sundays LSR, Thursdays for the PMP pace stuff. Add in a few easy days and a bit of Gym and core work, and your up to 11 day weeks .

Krusty_Clown

average_runner wrote: »

Just as a quick question, is it a bad idea or an ok idea to do long tempo runs around 8-10 miles?

It really depends on what pace you plan to run them at. JD uses a sliding scale for threshold/tempo runs (based on time, rather than distance). So, for example, at my current VDOT, a 40 minute tempo run, would be at around 6 minute/mile. A 60 minute tempo run would be closer to 6:10/mile. But, you would generally need to build up to an 8-10 mile tempo run by completing shorter tempo runs in the weeks preceding the longer tempo run. Needless to say it should be considered one of your key sessions for the week and you should be rested before and recover afterwards.

average_runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It really depends on what pace you plan to run them at. JD uses a sliding scale for threshold/tempo runs (based on time, rather than distance). So, for example, at my current VDOT, a 40 minute tempo run, would be at around 6 minute/mile. A 60 minute tempo run would be closer to 6:10/mile. But, you would generally need to build up to an 8-10 mile tempo run by completing shorter tempo runs in the weeks preceding the longer tempo run. Needless to say it should be considered one of your key sessions for the week and you should be rested before and recover afterwards.

Aye thanks for that. Yeah the plan was JD pacing. Yeah will build up to it.

Regarding key sessions, some schedules regards lsr as a key session, some dont, others only regard lsr with mp pace in it as key session, where do people here stand on it?

ecoli

average_runner wrote: »

Aye thanks for that. Yeah the plan was JD pacing. Yeah will build up to it.

Regarding key sessions, some schedules regards lsr as a key session, some dont, others only regard lsr with mp pace in it as key session, where do people here stand on it?

How exactly do you define a "key session"? I would say a long run would come under this category for a few reasons;

- It has a specific purpose in endurance building
- Usually the placement of when in the week you do it is important (You wouldn't do a Lon run the day before a session for example)*
- It puts extra pressure on your immune system in comparison to general aerobic maintenance "easy runs"

*However I would not be adverse to doing a session the day before to replicate tired legs and try and compound the mental aspect of an endurance run as well as physical

Krusty_Clown

average_runner wrote: »

Aye thanks for that. Yeah the plan was JD pacing. Yeah will build up to it.

Regarding key sessions, some schedules regards lsr as a key session, some dont, others only regard lsr with mp pace in it as key session, where do people here stand on it?

In Plan A, Daniels regards a 2.5 hour run (or 22 miles) as a key session, but generally speaking, later in the plan I wouldn't go out and run a 2.5 hour easy run. Instead I'd be looking to do it as a progression run, or include some target pace miles, or run MP+10% (after a few easy miles). These tend to occur on higher mileage weeks also (generally 90-100% of max mileage) so in those cases an easier session may be warranted.

BeepBeep67

Generally I did enjoy the JD plan A, but in the sh1tty Winter and Spring we had it was hard to get motivated to do something like 4 x 12mins @ T on a Weds night in zero degrees and a biting wind.
The long runs I ran on feel and sometimes when feeling strong I finished at MP, I think you can do this as you don't have 2 sessions, plus an LSR.
The flexibility was great 2 key sessions, do them when you want and work out how to get to your mileage across the other days.
In hindsight though I feel I went into Rotterdam a little over cooked and the double taper for Kildare left me fresher.
If I was to follow JD A again, I'd probably plan for phase 4 to be 7 weeks and take a longer taper, or even 8 weeks and finish 3+1 (wk19 - 21 + a recovery week), 3+1 (wk 22, 23, 23, 24).

Itziger

Hello, anyone out there? I have a question for experienced types who've done multiple marathons. Most of us have come across, and many have probably done, the old 5,4,3,2,1 mile marathon pace session. If I recall, I did it just once a good few years back. I've been wondering for a while if you could turn it around. Would it be too much? And what recs to take between... Maybe same mins of jogging as the mile or miles you've just completed? Feel free to comment. (I should probably add that the session isn't for me!)

healy1835

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122686235#Comment_122686235

Great to read back on this thread Donal. The forum really was hopping back in the day… Hope all is well in the 'Bourg. I think I may have done the 5,4,3,2,1 @MP at one stage during Covid out of pure boredom (We all used our fitness on a lot of random runs during those times I think!) It's a big workout but one that the floats/recoveries make manageable.

I think the most MP in a LR I've done during a marathon block is 4x5k, if you discount a couple of HM's @MP. I suppose like all the bigger workouts, they should be part of a bigger picture and fit into a wider plan. If reversing the session, I think I'd go for a mile float between the efforts.

Itziger

Thanks, Healy. Yeah, it fits into a plan obviously but I'm just looking to change a couple of little things. The biggest workout will be the 3x8k@mp, which for this young fella is 3.30 per km. I've done that a few times myself, from a recommendation here I think. The 3x8, not the pace!! I was just thinking for the 5,4,3 etc, why diminishing and why not the other way around, so that by the time you come to the 5miler you're going to be fairly tired! And hopefully that replicates race experience better. Hope you're well, mate. (Without wanting to be too sentimental, back in the day there was some great to and fro here, eh!)

Murph_D

3:30 😮 😮

Itziger

He's a young lad Murph who's just done a Half in 1.09.40 so 3.30 is about right.

ultrapercy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122699690#Comment_122699690

1.09.40 equates to about 2.26/27 if properly marathon trained so 3.30 is about about right.

I ran 1.09.36 but it took a couple of years later to go sub 2.30.

I changed my approach to marathon training to crack 2.30, I increased general mileage by 20%, slowed down my easy runs and did longer but less intense sessions. My sessions were nearly all between hm and mar pace but high volume. All my training was done in one session, no double days. Lonest runs were 27 miles x 4.

I did a 10k race 6 or 7 weeks out that was a full 90 secs slower than my expectation and had serious doubts but while I was slower over shorter distances the brute strength of 8 months of 90 to 100 miles per week pulled me through on the day.

Itziger

Thanks UltraP, interesting comment. I'm afraid this fella isn't doing huge mileage (max is going to be about 80m a week) but he is doing a lot of easy and his quality stuff is also mostly M and HM paces. In fact tomorrow he's due his first M+HM continuous where he'll be doing 1k of M and 500 metres of HM x....… We haven't set a target for this first of this type in this block. I've told him run to feel/until the HM just feels too much. A compromise would be to continue the M stuff for a couple of Kms more instead of trying anymore HM. I got that workout from Krusty back in the day and used it myself a few times. Weekend runs are now going to be almost all with M sections, mostly long reps of up to 3x8k. Thanks again for responding.

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122699690#Comment_122699690

Ah, had missed the 'not for me' bit!