The Jobbridge Scandal

Tarzana

pharmaton wrote: »

sometimes it's necessary to torture myself by speaking in a manner which only the tone deaf can hear

http://myreactiongifs.com/gifs/jenniferlawrenceokaythumbup.gif

amacca

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That logic only applies to state employees.

Look whatever about any other profession the teaching profession is hugely oversubscribed. That's why so many graduates can't find a full time job and one of the reasons I decided not to go down that career path (the main one being I can't abide teenagers).

Graduates are going to continue to find it hard to find a job until wages fall enough to make the job less attractive to potential entrants. In the meantime graduates should work on getting their head above the crowd any way they can and frankly 9 months experience is a good way to do that. Were I a newly graduated unemployed teacher I'd be snapping up that opportunity, not turning my nose up at it.

So what if it's only 150 a week? You think you're entitled to more than 150 a week just because you went to college? The experience is worth far more than money at this stage in your career, the 150 is icing on the cake...

I don't think a newly qualified teacher or newly qualified anything for that matter should have to either turn their nose up at job bridge or snap it up because I think it shouldn't exist…………..There should be a rate of pay for doing a job and if your qualified to do it and you've competed and been successful at interview then you should be paid that rate………..not a fraction of it as an intern.

Graduates in lots of fields wouldn't find it hard to get a job if colleges were not allowed treat them as cash cows and train many more numbers of them than there are jobs - I think there should be an awful lot less graduates and colleges should be stopped training many many multiples more students in fields where there are a shortage of jobs, its just another racket imo thats leading to a lowering of standards across the board further on down the line

In a way its crazy shoehorning vast swathes of the 2nd level student population into 3rd level because god forbid you might actually go and do something you are suited for or like that doesn't necessarily involve 3rd level……talk about one size fits all…..Just as crazy as the people that decide to do medicine because its the highest points and/or mammy/daddy has them brainwashed into it only to then realise they simply aren't suited for it (used to be 50% drop out rate in some first year medicine courses)…I seriously doubt a hpat is really sorting that out either as any interview/test can be gamed once its established for a while and its format etc becomes known but thats another story

To answer your question…I personally wouldnt think I was entitled to more than 150 a week because I went to college,I wouldn't think I was entitled to anything just because I went to college, after all practically everyone does that nowadays………

I would however think that if I trained for a professional role (thats what the system calls it) if I made a sacrifice in terms of opportunity cost of the time spent gaining the professional qualification and the financial cost that I should at least be entitled to compete in a jobs market where there is a decent minimum rate of pay for the job I trained for and acquired a supposedly "professional" qualification for….. and should I be successful at interview I shouldn't then have to face being paid 150 a week to do it……..What "professional" earns this sort of money if they are working at their "profession" otherwise why the **** would I waste my time and energy only to be paid 150 a week - I can't imagine any professional loving their profession that much they would do it for that kind of money especially if they have any kind of financial commitments or aspirations to maybe have some sort of life………..The icing on the cake….you've got a sense of humour at least!

Anyway jobs bridge isn't giving people a chance…its ultimately watering down terms and conditions and if its let continue indefinitely/ becomes more commonplace will affect the quality of service thats delivered in the longer term imo and thats the real kicker for those arguing for it…I don't expect them to care or give a sh1t about others but they might see that ultimately that kind of stuff affects them in a negative way as well…maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but soon and potentially for the rest of your or your kids/spouses/siblings etc etc lives

Iwasfrozen

I agree, far too many people are going to college these days but college education only exists for people to get their foot in through the door of their chosen profession, real education comes with experience in a workplace and that's the sort of thing that can only be learned in a limited fashion in college. i.e. placements in a master's degree.

But that's why jobbridge is a good idea, it gives graduates an opportunity to get experience. So what if you're only being paid 150? At this stage in your career the money isn't important.

shruikan2553

Dont teachers complete work experience as part of the hdip?

Im not even graduated yet and did a placement as part of my course. Somehow they managed to pay me slightly above minimum wage. No idea why anyone would need to do it for free.

pharmaton

amacca wrote: »

Anyway jobs bridge isn't giving people a chance…its ultimately watering down terms and conditions and if its let continue indefinitely/ becomes more commonplace will affect the quality of service thats delivered in the longer term imo and thats the real kicker for those arguing for it…I don't expect them to care or give a sh1t about others but they might see that ultimately that kind of stuff affects them in a negative way as well…maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but soon and potentially for the rest of your or your kids/spouses/siblings etc etc lives

I disagree, in fact I believe the opposite to be true. In a sort of biblical sifting of the wheat from the chaff kind of way. For example, several years ago when job bridge went live, an acquaintance of mine made his feelings very vocal when "x company gave his job to an intern". This was an individual of obese proportions with makey uppy credentials and qualifications, who believed that had the placement been a real job it would have been his. When I asked had he applied for the internship he laughed heartily and asked why he should have to do what should be his paying job for nothing, he had college bills to pay afterall, and a belly to feed. So I asked how he knew that the intern wouldn't have also qualified for it if it were a real job. It seems in his mind that the intern was a lesser species and an otherwise non viable employee.
The job was never his to begin with, it just made him feel better to think that he might have had one if it weren't for those damn interns. Three years later and he is still on the dole.

Personally, I have sweated blood and tears to earn my keep over the last four years. I have cleaned part time while working as a temp simultaneously. I never took a sickie once in those years at all. In the case where I worked as a temp, I had the pleasure of sharing duties with a colleague who took a sickie at least once a week and who had about as much interest in doing work as she had painting her nails. I realise its probably unkind of me to say, but she was about as bright as a balloon in a chimney to boot. But it was ok though, she knew someone who knew someone who got her the job and that was all she needed.

On the contrary, the people working as interns are more likely to be those who want to work and who are just that much more motivated to do so. They are not there because auntie Mary gave them the job, or because the dole forced them to do it, they probably have plenty of qualifications and they don't think themselves above working for less than what they are worth, because somehow they know that digging themselves out of this hole requires determination and perseverance. Maybe someday you will thank them because they are definitely a lot more optimistic about the future than you are.

amacca

pharmaton wrote: »

Maybe someday you will thank them because they are definitely a lot more optimistic about the future than you are.

You're right, I'm a pessimist….

I can't help it, I get pessimistic when I see these kinds of schemes peddled by our elected officials and the numbers of people who fall for them….I don't think people should co-operate with them tbh as I believe longterm it bites them in the back.

We will have to agree to disagree I'm afraid.

pharmaton

we can do that too

Iwasfrozen

@ pharmaton, this is what I like to see, people without a sense of entitlement who know what they're worth and are willing to work hard to improve their lot. Those are the type of people who do well in business.

amacca

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Dont teachers complete work experience as part of the hdip?

Im not even graduated left and did a placement as part of my course. Somehow they managed to pay me slightly above minimum wage. No idea why anyone would need to do it for free.

Yes afaik every teacher training course has classroom placement in it - so these courses have job experience in them

essentially your getting unpaid job experience in order to then go on and get very low paid job experience rather than your qualification getting you an actual job or the ability to compete for an actual job

amacca

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

@ pharmaton, this is what I like to see, people without a sense of entitlement who know what they're worth and are willing to work hard to improve their lot. Those are the type of people who do well in business.

Just to clarify…Im willing to work and work hard, just not for peanuts……………………I'm currently doing very well with my business.

Iwasfrozen

amacca wrote: »

Just to clarify…Im willing to work and work hard, just not for peanuts……………………I'm currently doing very well with my business.

But if a person with little to no experience is only worth 150 euro a week then expecting anything more is self-entitlement.

I commend you for starting your own business though, well done on that track.

shruikan2553

amacca wrote: »

Yes afaik every teacher training course has classroom placement in it - so these courses have job experience in them

essentially your getting unpaid job experience in order to then go on and get very low paid job experience rather than your qualification getting you an actual job or the ability to compete for an actual job

On the plus side their income is now predictable for 9 months, they can plan how to spend that 150 a week instead of worrying about getting the hours. Im sure the school will have no problems finding 40 hours a week for them now they wont have to pay for it. Still ****ed over summer, maybe if they're lucky they will hit 25 at the start of summer and get a 44 euro increase!

amacca

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But if a person with little to no experience is only worth 150 euro a week then expecting anything more is self-entitlement.

But some of these people have a lot more than "little to no experience"…some by virtue of having a professional qualification have a lot of experience or at least thats what the training bodies/unis are saying…they are training them to be able to do the job aren't they?……if this is the case then whats happening suggests to me newly qualified graduates desperation to get a job is being exploited…thats what I think JobsBridge really is I suppose, exploitation…plain and simple…the weakest link is being targeted and while its wholly understandable they are going for these roles ultimately they are potentially contributing to watering down the very role/job they want to get…I don't blame them by the way, but I do think its a shameful act by our Govt.

If the training course leaves you with little or no experience or qualification to do the role then perhaps you shouldn't have to do it all…. or the training bodies should have to refund the fees or pay damages in court for false advertising (can you see that happening?)

Basically wtf is the point of having the qualification at all if you need to do jobs bridge before you get the job - if thats whats required then dispense with 4..more like 6 years of unnecessary qualification/preparation for the role that seemingly doesn't actually prepare you for the role and let people do jobs bridge straight out of secondary school for 150euro and at the end of a set period they can do the job proper (can you see that happening either?)

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I commend you for starting your own business though, well done on that track.

Thank you, I'm not saying there weren't sacrifices but I certainly wouldn't be doing it for love of the business or job bridge style renumeration.

amacca

shruikan2553 wrote: »

maybe if they're lucky they will hit 25 at the start of summer and get a 44 euro increase!

I suspect we may have different definitions of luck…..still though if you have your health!

evolving_doors

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I agree, far too many people are going to college these days but college education only exists for people to get their foot in through the door of their chosen profession, real education comes with experience in a workplace and that's the sort of thing that can only be learned in a limited fashion in college. i.e. placements in a master's degree.

But that's why jobbridge is a good idea, it gives graduates an opportunity to get experience. So what if you're only being paid 150? At this stage in your career the money isn't important.

So you wouldn't see anything wrong with 2 people doing the exact same job... One getting job bridge...and the sack 9months later... And the other Full pay,pension , increment, holidays, permanency...

Jeez I'd say that would be an awkward journey if they were carpooling every day..

Iwasfrozen

Armelodie wrote: »

So you wouldn't see anything wrong with 2 people doing the exact same job... One getting job bridge...and the sack 9months later... And the other Full pay,pension , increment, holidays, permanency...

Jeez I'd say that would be an awkward journey if they were carpooling every day..

I don't see anything wrong with it, it comes down to power of negotiation, circumstances and to a large degree luck. You may as well ask me do I have a problem with inequality in general.

Also why do you assume the teacher on jobbridge will get the sack after nine months?The school has a large financial incentive to take the teacher on.

PopePalpatine

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So basically the state is paying this teacher 5.4k a year + jobseekers for the remaining 3 months instead of 30k a year for the exact same amount of work?

Sounds good, if every teacher were on jobbridge taxpayers would save millions!

Do you have any empathy whatsoever for the unemployed? Or is it all "PRAISE THE FREE MARKET AND F*CK THE POOR!" with you?

PopePalpatine

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But if a person with little to no experience is only worth 150 euro a week then expecting anything more is self-entitlement.

I commend you for starting your own business though, well done on that track.

Nothing about the self-entitlement of the employer, of course, because PRAISE THE FREE MARKET!

Aikau

"Schools were slapped across the wrist this week after it emerged they were axing special needs assistants and replacing them with JobBridge interns."

The schools in question have been reprimanded by the Dept. of Social Protection.

Is this not endemic in the private sector?

Touch Fuzzy Get Dizzy

Aikau wrote: »

"Schools were slapped across the wrist this week after it emerged they were axing special needs assistants and replacing them with JobBridge interns."

The schools in question have been reprimanded by the Dept. of Social Protection.

Is this not endemic in the private sector?

Have you a link to this? I'd be interested in seeing

Satriale

Sera wrote: »

Have you a link to this? I'd be interested in seeing

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/education/schools-disciplined-axing-special-needs-4085684

poolsandles

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Also why do you assume the teacher on jobbridge will get the sack after nine months?The school has a large financial incentive to take the teacher on.

What financial incentive are you talking about? There is none.

Schools are allocated their number of teachers by the DES, individual schools do not decide how many teachers they recruit each year.

Another point is that small schools are using jobbridge to "fill in the gaps" by teacher cutbacks so for example if a school loses a teacher due to falling pupil numbers and hire a jobbridge intern they can't just take them on when the nine months are over as there is no position there for them.

evolving_doors

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with it, it comes down to power of negotiation, circumstances and to a large degree luck. You may as well ask me do I have a problem with inequality in general.

Also why do you assume the teacher on jobbridge will get the sack after nine months?The school has a large financial incentive to take the teacher on.

well in that case youd have no problem with the case of the turkish construction workers who were brought in on minimum wage back in the celtic tiger days..
or heck..the case of those foreign workers being held captive by travellers to work for nothing..

Free market and all that...

On your second point, that school I mentioned took on a different 'intern' full time teacher the previous year... not that that would mean anything to some around here anyway.

Grab All Association

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/31253

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh is calling on the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection Joan Burton to clarify if her department is cold-calling employers to try and get advertised jobs converted to JobBridge internships.

He says:

“I have been contacted by the National One Parent Family Network who tell me that at least two companies where their members work were cold-called by individuals on behalf of the Department of Social Protection on foot of jobs advertised, asking if they would convert them into JobBridge internships.

“Michelle Frawley, Secretary of the Network, told me that the members were shocked by the practice and that a government Department would be acting in such an underhand manner when what the government should be doing is supporting the growth of real jobs in our economy.

“I understand the companies in question are in Galway and in the South East, so this would appear to be a national approach. What is not clear is whether this is being done by staff in the department, or if it is being outsourced to a private company.

“The jobs in question had been advertised on the internet and it would appear that the people involved have been trawling websites, cold-calling the companies and inviting them to turn the real jobs into internships under JobBridge. It is hard to see what benefit the state would gain from such a practice.

“Sinn Féin has been very critical of the JobBridge scheme since it was initiated. We believe that it encourages employers to put off creating real jobs in the economy. If the new allegations are found to be true then that is taking the whole thing a step further and is totally unacceptable and must be stopped.

“It would be incredible if this is happening under the watch of two Labour Ministers, the Tánaiste herself and the newly appointed Junior Minister, Kevin Humphreys, who has specific responsibilities in the area of job activation.

“They need to give a full and frank account of how the department is going about its business in this regard and ensure this underhand practice, if substantiated, is stamped out immediately.”

dark crystal

Chris___ wrote: »

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/31253

That's disgraceful if true. I wonder will Ms. Burton answer that one or not? :rolleyes:

I honestly don't think this issue gets the coverage it deserves. The only time I hear people talking about it in the media, it's spun as a success story by government ministers and politicians alike. Very few people in government are speaking out against this.

Look down any jobsite in the country (especially those with employment blackspots) and you'll see the amount of companies now looking for free interns, instead of hiring in the regular way.
There should be much stricter rules about which companies are allowed to participate, how many times they are allowed to participate and what employment prospects they intend to offer to successful participants.

Mrs Garth Brooks

Chris___ wrote: »

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/31253

Disgraceful.

How about doing it the other way and ringing job bridge positions and asking them to turn them into real jobs instead... That might help the situation more.

Aikau

Sera wrote: »

Have you a link to this? I'd be interested in seeing

Hi Sera, it was in the Mirror and unfortunately I cannot post URL's yet.

The article popped up on Friday...as you can you tell I take my intern-ship very seriously on Friday afternoon : )

Mr. Incognito

Legal Aid Board

Experience Required:
No Experience Required

---

Education Requirements:
Third Level - The applicant must be a qualified solicitor, who is on the role of solicitors in Ireland and who is eligible to hold a practising as issued by the Law Society of Ireland.

The "Role" of Solicitors.

Muppets.

BlatentCheek

dark crystal wrote: »

I honestly don't think this issue gets the coverage it deserves. The only time I hear people talking about it in the media, it's spun as a success story by government ministers and politicians alike. Very few people in government are speaking out against this.

I'm told, by people who work in media, that the media outlets don't give it any play because many of them rely on Jobbridge (and other unpaid internships) themselves.

To be honest I'm surprised that more people in the opposition don't make hay off this. The Scambridge site can be a bit off-putting because its position as a Socialist Party front shines through. A non-aligned site merely setting out all employers who advertise and benefit from jobbridge, and which ones fire the intern to hire a new one after a month or so, would be a tremendous asset.

Xenji

We have an intern in at the moment and it is basically the quietest time of the year for us, so most managers are away, for the whole of this week the intern sent one email and spent the rest of his time on the web.