The Jobbridge Scandal

B.A._Baracus

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Would not be surprised the Paid jobs as you say are red herrings just to make it look like their wanting to hire but cant so they can use these schemes. Not all Employers are doing this but i would say more than enough are to take up the Free labour while it lasts.

Never thought of it that way. Personal I think you are right.

Jawgap wrote: »

Why does everyone expect to get a job in their chosen field just because they've finished their degree?

Myself and most of the people I know spent about 2/3 years post-college working in a hole range of crappy jobs in between temporary contracts . assignments before getting a job that might reasonably be defined as a 'regular'.

So by saying that you agree with internships?

darkpagandeath

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Never thought of it that way. Personal I think you are right.




So by saying that you agree with internships?

Well the government are clearly doing it.

Jawgap

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Never thought of it that way. Personal I think you are right.




So by saying that you agree with internships?

Absolutely - I don't see what's so bad about them. I've worked in the States and the UK and internships for graduates were fairly common.

The problem seems (to me anyway) to be that during the boom people got used to seeing graduates get 'headhunted' into well paying positions and that became seen as the norm - when it was and is very much the exception.......unless you are coming from one of the top tier universities, which no graduate of an Irish university is coming from.

Xios

Jawgap wrote: »

Absolutely - I don't see what's so bad about them. I've worked in the States and the UK and internships for graduates were fairly common.

The problem seems (to me anyway) to be that during the boom people got used to seeing graduates get 'headhunted' into well paying positions and that became seen as the norm - when it was and is very much the exception.......unless you are coming from one of the top tier universities, which no graduate of an Irish university is coming from.

I don't think its an issue of internships. It's government sponsored internships that I have a problem with. I've done both a jobsbridge internship and a private internship (unpaid) in the past year and a half.

The private internship yielded a job offer which im currently working at now, but the jobsbridge was a bit of a joke, they had 2 or 3 interns before me, i left after 4 months on the jobsbridge as i felt like i was being exploited.

The reason i oppose the government sponsored internships is that they take away any risks inherent to hiring an intern away from the employer and shifting it to the taxpayer. It's also been grossly mis-managed completely open for exploitation by employers.

Xenji

Jawgap wrote: »

Absolutely - I don't see what's so bad about them. I've worked in the States and the UK and internships for graduates were fairly common.

The problem seems (to me anyway) to be that during the boom people got used to seeing graduates get 'headhunted' into well paying positions and that became seen as the norm - when it was and is very much the exception.......unless you are coming from one of the top tier universities, which no graduate of an Irish university is coming from.

Ah but this is the thing, we all know the scheme was originally meant to be for graduates and it was a good idea, but in less than a year of its inception companies and businesses copped on to the fact that they could exploit it ( with the help from the likes of ISME and IBEC ) and the government did nothing to stop this and so it mutated into what we have now.

Now you have well in my town anyway nearly every job being advertised as an internship, I am sure you would agree that offering jobs that just require the junior cert as a minimum requirement is totally wrong and should not be classified as a internship, we have had the likes of stock assistant, housekeeper, photocopier assistant, self stocker and sandwich artist being offered in town, none of these require 9 months training.

JohnMarston

Jawgap wrote: »

Why does everyone expect to get a job in their chosen field just because they've finished their degree?

Myself and most of the people I know spent about 2/3 years post-college working in a hole range of crappy jobs in between temporary contracts . assignments before getting a job that might reasonably be defined as a 'regular'.

Lots of people i know worked and are working all types of sh*t jobs just to get a good reference or to show theyre currently working on their CV to qualify (yes, qualify) for an internship in the sector they spend years studying and training for. No graduate i met has ever expected to be handed a job, or even just to walk into one.
However, its a slap in the face to be offered to what amounts to less than minimum wage for 9 or 12 months for the slim possibility of an actual position, especially when the position you work is highly specialised and your co-workers see you as just a skivvy

Yeah ok, some may say "Well its training and experience". You learn that on the job anyway.

Jawgap

Xios wrote: »

I don't think its an issue of internships. It's government sponsored internships that I have a problem with. I've done both a jobsbridge internship and a private internship (unpaid) in the past year and a half.

The private internship yielded a job offer which im currently working at now, but the jobsbridge was a bit of a joke, they had 2 or 3 interns before me, i left after 4 months on the jobsbridge as i felt like i was being exploited.

The reason i oppose the government sponsored internships is that they take away any risks inherent to hiring an intern away from the employer and shifting it to the taxpayer. It's also been grossly mis-managed completely open for exploitation by employers.

Everybody's experience varies.

I work in the Public Sector and we've had a steady stream of JobBridge interns through. Each one is given a real, decent project to work on so at the end of it they have something tangible on their CV to discuss and point to, as well as the experience.

The ones who've got stuck in have done well - I know at least two who got subsequently got jobs and one particularly gifted individual was placed with the IT consultancy we're forced to use so we could access his skills.

The ones who've come in and basically couldn't be arsed to work (or thought they were too good for JobBridge) were essentially left to their own devices - if they don't show any interest, they can't expect busy people to make time to work with them. Their loss.

On the 'other side' of JobBridge - my experience suggests interns get back what they put in - but I accept not all employers are like this and too many use the scheme to source cheap labour.

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Everybody's experience varies.

I work in the Public Sector and we've had a steady stream of JobBridge interns through. Each one is given a real, decent project to work on so at the end of it they have something tangible on their CV to discuss and point to, as well as the experience.

The ones who've got stuck in have done well - I know at least two who got subsequently got jobs and one particularly gifted individual was placed with the IT consultancy we're forced to use so we could access his skills.

The ones who've come in and basically couldn't be arsed to work (or thought they were too good for JobBridge) were essentially left to their own devices - if they don't show any interest, they can't expect busy people to make time to work with them. Their loss.

On the 'other side' of JobBridge - my experience suggests interns get back what they put in - but I accept not all employers are like this and too many use the scheme to source cheap labour.

You do know its full 9/12 months training ? and not 2 weeks then do the job like a paid employee in the company. These people are supposed to have a mentor showing them the ropes for the whole period they are there. As if not and it only takes 2 weeks then it's clearly a job.

Xios

Jawgap wrote: »

Everybody's experience varies............

The ones who've come in and basically couldn't be arsed to work (or thought they were too good for JobBridge) were essentially left to their own devices - if they don't show any interest, they can't expect busy people to make time to work with them. Their loss.

On the 'other side' of JobBridge - my experience suggests interns get back what they put in - but I accept not all employers are like this and too many use the scheme to source cheap labour.

Fair point, my experience was the latter, Invited to do an internship with a well known chocolate producer in the purchasing department, thinking it'd be business related, but get asked a bunch of IT related question in the interview. Me not having many other options decided that IT experience might be useful.

Start the job, given a bull**** project of weighing, literally weighing each piece of package they had in the warehouse to fill in a recycling report, I checked the server for bugs/alerts daily and never actually got to solve any problems, just report them, all but 2 minutes of work each morning.

I was routinely asked to help other departments with invoices to earn browney points for my supervisor. IT guy showed me one or two things IT related while i was there, got cheap chocolate too, so there's that.

I think the problem with this company was that they saw an opportunity to get in some personnel, but didn't bother to put any structure to the role in any way.

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You do know its full 9/12 months training and not 2 weeks then do the job like a paid employee in the company. These people are supposed to have a mentor showing them the ropes for the whole period they are there.

Yes, and in our place they do - but as I said, some people either out of a sense of boredom our over-inflated sense of ego, make it plain they are only with us out of a sense of obligation that seems to make them immune to mentoring.

As I said, we provide very clear projects, matched to whatever quals / experience they have which they work on. The projects tend to be things we don't have time to do, or more often than not, don't have time to do properly.

They also work on the more general activities / tasks that might be ongoing and we have, in the past, tried to facilitate them getting certain types of experience that might help with their career ambitions.

...and now that I think of it, the really smart ones don't just deliver the work assigned to them, they squeeze out of us every last opportunity to add to their professional network.

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, and in our place they do - but as I said, some people either out of a sense of boredom our over-inflated sense of ego, make it plain they are only with us out of a sense of obligation that seems to make them immune to mentoring.

As I said, we provide very clear projects, matched to whatever quals / experience they have which they work on. The projects tend to be things we don't have time to do, or more often than not, don't have time to do properly.

They also work on the more general activities / tasks that might be ongoing and we have, in the past, tried to facilitate them getting certain types of experience that might help with their career ambitions.

...and now that I think of it, the really smart ones don't just deliver the work assigned to them, they squeeze out of us every last opportunity to add to their professional network.

It's nice to see at a least some Employers doing something decent for once. But I would hesitate and say this is the exception to the rule going by all the horror stories going around about Jobbridge. And on the lazy ones did you take time to think that maybe they were forced to do this by FAS/FIT our what ever quango they are tied into or have their JSA cut. I would wager a lot of people would rather be out looking for work than on a scheme that has a terrible reputation of not Employing people.

Tipsy McSwagger

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Just watched a news report regarding the 800 jobs WTH is a Street ambassador ? Looked like someone standing around with a green jacket on giving directions to a Tourist. That’s hardly working for the council.

800 long term unemployed made to work for an extra €20 a week are going to be really nice to tourists now ain't they

Holsten

I think the Job Bridge scheme when used correctly is brilliant. Gives people something to do, experience on a CV, perhaps learn new skills and they receive a reference afterwards. I'd hire someone fresh from a Job Bridge no problem.

This new thing they are starting now is a joke, forced community service basically.

Grab All Association

cletus van damme wrote: »

ok - one of these people (who is my gf btw) had a cert from her doctor and a specialist saying she was unfit for work. proof.
SW after the interview said they were cancelling her benefit. She could appeal - it could take a year and she'd get nothing for the year in payment.
or go on the dole - she needed to eat/clothe herself etc...
so to the dole she went. being on the dole didn't make her any more able to work.

This is widespread in ireland - if think you have an agenda or your head buried up your hole.

There are many stories about people falling between stools when it comes to government care and although being

What she should have done (can't believe they never told you both this at the welfare office ) was got an MC1 form filled out by the doctor and went to the CWO applied for SWA whilst her appeal was been processed and handed in MC2 certs filled out by the doctor each week to the CWO

Btw its not too late to do this if she is still sick/unfit for work. Tell her go to the doctor. MC1-CWO-MC2 every week until her appeal is heard.

Fred Swanson

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sligoface

Quazzie wrote: »

That is brilliant. All long term unemployed should be made do this, and not just in Dublin.

No they should not it's ridiculous. Especially if someone can prove they have been looking for work during that time. I lost my job in November 2013 and was unemployed in 2012 also. If I was living in Dublin I'd probably have little trouble finding work, I have a degree and experience in several areas of work. But here in the Northwest there just isn't enough jobs. Since losing my job I've looked for work every day. There has been one full time job within that 3 months advertised that I could do, and it was a low paid cashier job. There is a huge lack of entry level jobs, almost everything in Sligo that I see advertised is for an engineering, science or management position, with a sprinkling of IT, programming, etc. If you don't have one of those backgrounds there isn't much left. Entry level jobs have been replaced by jobbridge internships, that is why the scheme is such a failure, it is keeping jobs away from the unemployed, not 'bridging' them into a job.

This forced 19.5 hrs labor scheme will only target the decent people who are not having success finding work. The scummers and junkies won't be asked to be 'ambassadors' will they? Especially since they have to be garda vetted. So it's just going to be an exercise in humiliation for people who are already down on their luck. Forcing someone to work for 1 euo per hour? Yeah that's brilliant. Though having slaves as 'street ambassadors' seems appropriate with the way things are going in this country.

I have to admit that when I read posts from people who have this agenda against people on the dole and think they should be forced to work for their payment, part of me wishes that they would lose their job and be replaced by a slavebridge worker. They might rethink their support for the scheme then!

ABajaninCork

sligoface wrote: »

I have to admit that when I read posts from people who have this agenda against people on the dole and think they should be forced to work for their payment, part of me wishes that they would lose their job and be replaced by a slavebridge worker. They might rethink their support for the scheme then!

Or be made to pick up rubbish and be a Tourist Ambassador! :pac:

Fred Swanson

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dxhound2005

sligoface wrote: »

No they should not it's ridiculous. Especially if someone can prove they have been looking for work during that time. I lost my job in November 2013 and was unemployed in 2012 also. If I was living in Dublin I'd probably have little trouble finding work, I have a degree and experience in several areas of work. But here in the Northwest there just isn't enough jobs. Since losing my job I've looked for work every day. There has been one full time job within that 3 months advertised that I could do, and it was a low paid cashier job. There is a huge lack of entry level jobs, almost everything in Sligo that I see advertised is for an engineering, science or management position, with a sprinkling of IT, programming, etc. If you don't have one of those backgrounds there isn't much left. Entry level jobs have been replaced by jobbridge internships, that is why the scheme is such a failure, it is keeping jobs away from the unemployed, not 'bridging' them into a job.

This forced 19.5 hrs labor scheme will only target the decent people who are not having success finding work. The scummers and junkies won't be asked to be 'ambassadors' will they? Especially since they have to be garda vetted. So it's just going to be an exercise in humiliation for people who are already down on their luck. Forcing someone to work for 1 euo per hour? Yeah that's brilliant. Though having slaves as 'street ambassadors' seems appropriate with the way things are going in this country.

I have to admit that when I read posts from people who have this agenda against people on the dole and think they should be forced to work for their payment, part of me wishes that they would lose their job and be replaced by a slavebridge worker. They might rethink their support for the scheme then!

I think you may be overestimating the effect of Jobbridge on the pattern of employment in Co Sligo. As you may know, nationally there are now about 6500 in Jobbridge placements and around 25,000 have been through the system since it started. That is out of a workforce of over 2 million, with something like 1.9 million in jobs.

This study was done in 2012 and if the percentage of the overall Jobbridge placements which belonged to Sligo. 1.7% still holds then there will have been about 425 people in Sligo who were ever on Jobbridge. There is a lot of information in there, which no doubt people here will say is made up, but someone went to quite a bit of effort to make it up if that is the case.

http://www.jobbridge.ie/toolkit/IndeconReport.pdf

Of course there are other schemes apart from Jobbridge, the latest total overall is around 86,000 (including Jobbridge). Not an insignificant number but again in the context of a workforce of over 2 million, not enough to distort patterns in the labour market to the extent that is being claimed here by some people. And apart from that 86,000 there are something like 300,000 more who choose not to be part of any scheme but still get their unemployment payments.

stateofflux

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Of course there are other schemes apart from Jobbridge, the latest total overall is around 86,000 (including Jobbridge). Not an insignificant number but again in the context of a workforce of over 2 million, not enough to distort patterns in the labour market to the extent that is being claimed here by some people. And apart from that 86,000 there are something like 300,000 more who choose not to be part of any scheme but still get their unemployment payments.

they are still testing the water to see what they can get away with. this is only the beginning.

dxhound2005

stateofflux wrote: »

they are still testing the water to see what they can get away with. this is only the beginning.

When do you think they might finish the "testing"? The present Government will only be around for another 2 years maximum. The Jobbridge "testing" is going on for 3 years at this stage and the other schemes like Community Employment have been "tested" for decades.

Ace2007

dxhound2005 wrote: »

When do you think they might finish the "testing"? The present Government will only be around for another 2 years maximum. The Jobbridge "testing" is going on for 3 years at this stage and the other schemes like Community Employment have been "tested" for decades.

It worries me to see people with this argument? FG will be in power after the next election.

dxhound2005

Ace2007 wrote: »

It worries me to see people with this argument? FG will be in power after the next election.

I didn't mean to worry anyone. I was not making an argument. I was stating a fact.

How do you know who will be in power after the next election?

Ace2007

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I didn't mean to worry anyone. I was not making an argument. I was stating a fact.

How do you know who will be in power after the next election?

Well who else is going to be in Government?
Will FF have the numbers? - No, Will SF be in power - No - simple because no one will go into power with them, hence FG will be in power in some shape or form.

Xenji

The scheme was a Labour initiative, not a Fine Gael initiative for all the difference it makes.

Fred Swanson

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dxhound2005

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think the Labour Party will still be around regarless of the result of the election. Like the Green Party is still around.

If you mean they will not be around in the Dail, I hope you are a betting man. They have never had less than 12 TD's in the last 40 years so you could get some great odds on them having none next time round.

Fred Swanson

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dxhound2005

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

37 Labour TD's out the door (or what is left of the 37). Who would you like to get their seats?

sligoface

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I think you may be overestimating the effect of Jobbridge on the pattern of employment in Co Sligo. As you may know, nationally there are now about 6500 in Jobbridge placements and around 25,000 have been through the system since it started. That is out of a workforce of over 2 million, with something like 1.9 million in jobs.

This study was done in 2012 and if the percentage of the overall Jobbridge placements which belonged to Sligo. 1.7% still holds then there will have been about 425 people in Sligo who were ever on Jobbridge. There is a lot of information in there, which no doubt people here will say is made up, but someone went to quite a bit of effort to make it up if that is the case.

http://www.jobbridge.ie/toolkit/IndeconReport.pdf

Of course there are other schemes apart from Jobbridge, the latest total overall is around 86,000 (including Jobbridge). Not an insignificant number but again in the context of a workforce of over 2 million, not enough to distort patterns in the labour market to the extent that is being claimed here by some people. And apart from that 86,000 there are something like 300,000 more who choose not to be part of any scheme but still get their unemployment payments.

I am not overestimating it, I observe it clearly every day when job seeking. Just did a quick search on the FAS website for jobs>all types>Sligo = 88 results. (All types means internships/CE schemes included). Then searched again but changed all types to 'job' (meaning, jobs that pay wage/salary). 39 results. So less than half are actual jobs. Try it yourself and see.

As for that 300,000 who choose not to participate, it is now being reported that they are starting to force people onto schemes or have benefits cut or removed. I think these tactics will increase. They also have cut young adults pay by 44 euro so that they have to work a jobbridge just to get the normal rate.

These schemes are most definitely hindering the efforts of myself and others to find paid work, and no statistic that is cut and pasted from the jobbridge website is going to convince me otherwise. They have already been exposed for twisting figures to hide dropout rates and they lie in other ways such as counting people who complete internships and don't get offered a job by the host company but acquire employment elsewhere as having gotten a job through the scheme, even if the job is unrelated to the field they interned in. They also would not list all the companies banned for abuse of the scheme. I wouldn't really put faith in any of their figures, sure that's what the scheme is all about in the first place: fiddling numbers with the intent of hiding the true level of unemployment. It's plain to see.

It's not about how many are on the scheme, it's about how the scheme is not policed and is abused. It allows for actual jobs that require little training to be replaced by internships. Host companies are not monitored to ensure training is given, and are allowed to just let the intern go after nine months and get a new one. It's not helping the unemployment crisis in any way to allow this.

The burrito cafe near my house recently advertised for an intern. It's a business that is doing well, they could afford to pay someone. How long does it take to learn how to put rice and beans onto a tortilla and fold it? Certainly not nine months. Once you learn that and how to work the till, you won't be gaining any more skills and will just be a slave for your dole until the internship finishes.

Do you think that this kind of carry on should be allowed? I don't, no matter how few or many cases of it there are. How many people of those 425 in Co Sligo will be offered work by the company they slaved for? How many people working for those businesses will have their hours or wages cut or lose their job completely because there is a pool of slaves available to choose from?