The Jobbridge Scandal

dxhound2005

Smidge wrote: »

dxhound2005 wrote: »

In fairness though dx, I wasn't talking about the entire spend for the Dept of social protection.
I am aghast at 1 Billion euro being used to fund the development of these schemes.
I mean, its a Billion euro!!

Well like I said earlier on over half of them are in some sort of education or training. You could regard them as being in the same position as some of the more mature students at our third level institutions. They get student grants, the ones on the schemes get the dole. And another 10,000 are getting the dole while trying the self employment route. Leaving about 35,000 on the make work (Slave Labour if you like) schemes. I don't know if this is any sort of value for money but 400,000 more are getting their dole for doing nothing.

Smidge

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Sadly I cant pay my rent with dignity. Well, I suppose I can depending on the person Im renting from but its no good for buying milk in Tesco, the self service checkout isn't made for that sort of thing.

I thought that particular comment was terrible.
How out of touch are these people??
I'm sure there are a few ne'er do wells who are LTU but the vast majority want a job.
Dignity is what you get when you have a job that pays so you don't have to scrimp and scrounge and panic at every bill, every request from schools for money and so on.
Dignity is being able to provide for yourself and family.

dxhound2005

Smidge wrote: »

I thought that particular comment was terrible.
How out of touch are these people??
I'm sure there are a few ne'er do wells who are LTU but the vast majority want a job.
Dignity is what you get when you have a job that pays so you don't have to scrimp and scrounge and panic at every bill, every request from schools for money and so on.
Dignity is being able to provide for yourself and family.

History doesn't support your assertion that the vast majority want a job. When hundreds of thousands were coming to this country from abroad to work, there were still at least 100,000 on the dole. That was the time of the lowest unemployment over the last 30 years but it has to be remembered how that booming economy was achieved and how it proved to be transitory. The unemployment rate at present is not much above the 30 year average.

Smidge

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Smidge wrote: »

Well like I said earlier on over half of them are in some sort of education or training. You could regard them as being in the same position as some of the more mature students at our third level institutions. They get student grants, the ones on the schemes get the dole. And another 10,000 are getting the dole while trying the self employment route. Leaving about 35,000 on the make work (Slave Labour if you like) schemes. I don't know if this is any sort of value for money but 400,000 more are getting their dole for doing nothing.

It seems your are trying to make a point about something entirely different than what I said about 1 Billion euro being spent SOLELY on thinking up and running these schemes.

edit. just seen your other post there.
I'll leave it with you so.
Back on topic

shruikan2553

Smidge wrote: »

I thought that particular comment was terrible.
How out of touch are these people??
I'm sure there are a few ne'er do wells who are LTU but the vast majority want a job.
Dignity is what you get when you have a job that pays so you don't have to scrimp and scrounge and panic at every bill, every request from schools for money and so on.
Dignity is being able to provide for yourself and family.

We need high wages for politicians so we attract better ones supposedly. Cant we reduce their pay and replace it with dignity now its seen as an alternative?

Smidge

shruikan2553 wrote: »

We need high wages for politicians so we attract better ones supposedly. Cant we reduce their pay and replace it with dignity now its seen as an alternative?

I think they already have the high wage part covered :P

sligoface

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They are making a poor attempt at this Slave Labour business if all they can increase the number by in a year is 2692.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lr/liveregisterjanuary2014/

There were 86,162 people availing of these programmes in December 2013, which is an increase of 2,692 (+3.2%) from the previous year, when there were 83,470 people in activation programmes


If you look at the figures you will see nearly 50,000 are in education/training or on the self employed allowance. And of course Jobbridge which is the subject of this thread is only a small element around 6500.

It does reduce the live register but these makework programmes have been around a long time so it is comparing like with like. As far as I can see they are not counted in the numbers at work either, which is increasing.

This Government had better get it's skates on if they are going to get the 400,000 on the live register into the Slave Labour schemes in the next two years.

I can't for the life of me figure out why you keep cutting and pasting statistics to try and prove that these free labor schemes are not the huge obstacle to paid employment that they are. You also posted earlier in the thread that the schemes are voluntary so if you don't find a suitable one just don't take it up, simple as. But this new Gateway scheme has proven that this is not the case anymore. The Youth Guarantee has also been exposed as making free labor compulsory.

Besides that, when people are looking for work and can't find any paid jobs, eventually they will feel forced in a way to take up Jobbridge because 1) It's all that's available 2) They become afraid the gap on their CV is going to affect their chance of getting any paid work if it gets any wider 3) Their self esteem and mood is being brought down by having nothing to do and being labeled a scrounger and 4) As paltry as it is, the extra 50 euro a week can be a big difference to someone who is only getting 188 a week and has to pay all bills out of that.

It is clear that this government is hell bent on creating more and more of these work for dole schemes. It is clear they intend to make them complusory. When work is already scarce, replacing any amount of jobs with free labor is extremely alarming to someone who is a jobseeker. For some reason you don't seem to grasp this.

I don't know if you're Fine Gael, work for the dole office or are an employer who is using the scheme for free workers, but I know one thing for certain, you are not a job seeker. Because if you were, you wouldn't be able to look at the disgusting tactics being used to mask employment figures and exploit the unemployed who are desperate for work, and say 'Ah it's not that bad'.

It doesn't matter really what the actual amount on the schemes are in Dec 2013, because we this government are just getting started. And as I posted before, when more than half of the jobs in my area advertised through Fas are free labor, that to me is a much more telling statistic than anything else. That is the reality jobseekers are facing this day.

If we allow this government to continue to spawn a new free labor scheme at the rate they're doing it, we'll have entire generations living as slaves, stuck in a miserable existence, who can't even dream of buying a house in this country. The only goal that the next few generations of young adults will have is to leave Ireland and stay gone. Being unemployed is bad enough, being forced to work for nothing is unacceptable.

Xenji

dxhound2005 wrote: »

History doesn't support your assertion that the vast majority want a job. When hundreds of thousands were coming to this country from abroad to work, there were still at least 100,000 on the dole. That was the time of the lowest unemployment over the last 30 years but it has to be remembered how that booming economy was achieved and how it proved to be transitory. The unemployment rate at present is not much above the 30 year average.

300,000 people have emigrated from Ireland in the last 4 years, so I do not think that it is as simple as not being much above the average. It is a serious and severe issue in this country and if people can not see that, there is something very wrong with them and their ideals, especially the people who seem to think that the majority of dole claimants have no interest in working. I would say that only about 5% of people on the social welfare are the type that do not want work and even less that have never worked before, people are crying out for jobs, people are emigrating to get them, 86,000 plus on schemes is useless to the country.

At this point figures are redundant, you just have to talk to you friends or go for a walk in your town to see and hear the near criminal state this country has degraded into, with 1,000 people emigrating a week when is it gonna stop and when it does what will we have left.

dxhound2005

Xenji wrote: »

300,000 people have emigrated from Ireland in the last 4 years, so I do not think that it is as simple as not being much above the average. It is a serious and severe issue in this country and if people can not see that, there is something very wrong with them and their ideals, especially the people who seem to think that the majority of dole claimants have no interest in working. I would say that only about 5% of people on the social welfare are the type that do not want work and even less that have never worked before, people are crying out for jobs, people are emigrating to get them, 86,000 plus on schemes is useless to the country.

At this point figures are redundant, you just have to talk to you friends or go for a walk in your town to see and hear the near criminal state this country has degraded into, with 1,000 people emigrating a week when is it gonna stop and when it does what will we have left.

Migration and Ireland is not the simple issue that is was back in the 1980's when a lot more Irish people left and unemployment was 18%. And while as I said before I do not know a single person on Jobbridge but I do know some who emigrated. But they had jobs in Ireland when they left.

The numbers leaving include non Irish nationals and when you offset inward migration against emigration the numbers are not as dramatic as you make out. And the ones coming here are mostly able to get work, just like the Irish can go to countries with 7 or 8% unemployment rates and get jobs.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2013/

Ace2007

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Migration and Ireland is not the simple issue that is was back in the 1980's when a lot more Irish people left and unemployment was 18%. And while as I said before I do not know a single person on Jobbridge but I do know some who emigrated. But they had jobs in Ireland when they left.

The numbers leaving include non Irish nationals and when you offset inward migration against emigration the numbers are not as dramatic as you make out. And the ones coming here are mostly able to get work, just like the Irish can go to countries with 7 or 8% unemployment rates and get jobs.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2013/

You can prove anything with statistics, please keep it up, 95% of your stats were collected for completely different data that what you are spouting on bout.

Idbatterim

I would say that only about 5% of people on the social welfare are the type that do not want work and even less that have never worked before

This is a bit off topic, but why is Ireland probably the sole country in Europe that tolerates this s**t? Say you cut the wasters down to virtually nothing, the savings could be used to generate jobs for those that actually do want to work.

Also if that figure of one billion is correct, LOL! all this job "training" bull****, the lack of jobs is the problem (i.e. demand from employers) with over 400,000 unemployed I'm sure employers will have a long line of well trained and able candidates for the vast majority of roles that are advertised... How is training going to create jobs?! they would be better off channeling it into capital expenditure or reducing business costs, possibly lifting the PS recruitment embargo in certain areas etc...

Grandpa Hassan

Xenji wrote: »

300,000 people have emigrated from Ireland in the last 4 years, so I do not think that it is as simple as not being much above the average. It is a serious and severe issue in this country and if people can not see that, there is something very wrong with them and their ideals, especially the people who seem to think that the majority of dole claimants have no interest in working. I would say that only about 5% of people on the social welfare are the type that do not want work and even less that have never worked before, people are crying out for jobs, people are emigrating to get them, 86,000 plus on schemes is useless to the country.

.

I completely agree that jobbridge and emigration are skewing the numbers and the unemployment level is worse that what we are being sold by FG / Lab

But it is worth pointing out that full employment does not mean 0% unemployed. Even at full employment there is a % of unemployed. I don't know historically what this was in Ireland, but the level of unemployed between 2003 and 2007 is probably a good guide. That has to be taken off of the number when talking about unemployment levels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment

donegal11

Xenji wrote: »

"2 or 3 years down the road for the moratorium to be lifted", well there is proof that they are extending it again, it was due to be lifted at the end of this year. I mentioned it earlier, but people have coped on to the Jobbridge scheme with our council, for the first time we advertised an internship and had not had any response, same happened with two other departments as well.

That's interesting, did you get much response before? What were the positions in(link)? People see the same positions advertised over and over again they'll be reluctant to apply, because after nine months they'll be right back where they started.

Xenji

donegal11 wrote: »

That's interesting, did you get much response before? What were the positions in(link)? People see the same positions advertised over and over again they'll be reluctant to apply, because after nine months they'll be right back where they started.

The advertisement is down now, but it was for a intern with a 3rd level degree in marketing and it was to be involved in a fairly big new marketing campaign, up till now we would of had a minimum of 3-4 people applying and these were all internships were you needed 3rd level degrees as well.

donegal11

Xenji wrote: »

The advertisement is down now, but it was for a intern with a 3rd level degree in marketing and it was to be involved in a fairly big new marketing campaign, up till now we would of had a minimum of 3-4 people applying and these were all internships were you needed 3rd level degrees as well.

Do many leave internships early?

Xenji

donegal11 wrote: »

Do many leave internships early?

From the 24 that have been in my department, only two have left early and that was due to them finding full time jobs 9 months experience in a Council looks far better than 9 months experience in a Car Wash on a CV, so that is why people stick it out, plus we will give a tailored reference for any intern that asks for one and that is on top of the normal reference. We have also got 4 people full time work at the end of the 9 months with some private companies, unfortunately the other 18 did not get anything, but if we could hire them, I would say only 2 or 3 would not of been offered a position.

ivytwine

donegal11 wrote: »

Do many leave internships early?

I left mine after a month if that helps :P

Ace2007

Xenji wrote: »

From the 24 that have been in my department, only two have left early and that was due to them finding full time jobs 9 months experience in a Council looks far better than 9 months experience in a Car Wash on a CV, so that is why people stick it out, plus we will give a tailored reference for any intern that asks for one and that is on top of the normal reference. We have also got 4 people full time work at the end of the 9 months with some private companies, unfortunately the other 18 did not get anything, but if we could hire them, I would say only 2 or 3 would not of been offered a position.

while half of what your saying may be true, the other half contradicts the whole job bridge scheme and hence why this thread has been going on so long.

Your Saying 9 months in council looks better than 9 month in a Car Wash, both are widely available on the job bridge website, how can they go hand in hand, likewise deli assistant when as per your own acknowledgement one is clearly better than the other.

If the scheme was full of multi nationals or start up Irish Companies offering 6 month internships doing real work then maybe it would have gain some respect, but when they are requesting people with Masters and the like it looses all creditability.

You say the 2/3 would not have been offered a job - did you tell these people at regular intervals they were below standard, or even let them go - or did you just drag them along keep their hopes up?

It's being over 4 years since another thread started and you can see what once started out as a good idea has ended up like this.

It's like most idea's the government has - in theory it's good, but when they implement it, it's terrible and they don't care what others say as stats can prove anything.

See the government are going to be blowing their trumpet again, get ready for full blown RTE propaganda.

The live register has fallen again!

But of course those on Job Activation Schemes has increased, but dont expect that to be reported!

September 2012 - live register and job activation schemes - 479,643
March 2014- live register and job activation schemes - 483,328

Xenji

Ace2007 wrote: »

while half of what your saying may be true, the other half contradicts the whole job bridge scheme and hence why this thread has been going on so long.

Your Saying 9 months in council looks better than 9 month in a Car Wash, both are widely available on the job bridge website, how can they go hand in hand, likewise deli assistant when as per your own acknowledgement one is clearly better than the other.

If the scheme was full of multi nationals or start up Irish Companies offering 6 month internships doing real work then maybe it would have gain some respect, but when they are requesting people with Masters and the like it looses all creditability.

You say the 2/3 would not have been offered a job - did you tell these people at regular intervals they were below standard, or even let them go - or did you just drag them along keep their hopes up?

It's being over 4 years since another thread started and you can see what once started out as a good idea has ended up like this.

It's like most idea's the government has - in theory it's good, but when they implement it, it's terrible and they don't care what others say as stats can prove anything.

As other posters will point out and if you go back over my posts in this thread I am wholeheartedly against the scheme and agree with all you are saying.

As for that point we cannot hire anyone due to the moratorium on hiring in the Council, so that is why they make us take on interns on the Jobbridge scheme, it is the departments managers decision to bring them in, and we usually have 4-5 interns in at any one time, none of which can be hired.

As for the ones we would not hire, they were not let go as they would not be hired anyway and they knew that, they would be nicely asked to improve on certain aspects and start pulling their weight more, but some people just do not listen and they were not trusted with important work.

So we are not really keeping peoples hopes up, although one thing I hate is that unless the intern knows about the moratorium, it is never said in the interview or on the application that there is no chance of a full time council job at the end of the 9 months, it has a very demoralizing effect on the intern when they find out.

With the comparison I made, it is due to the fact that the scheme originally was created to give 3rd level graduates work experience in the field of their expertise and for them to have real world experience on their CV, it was not created for people to be working internships in the likes of Car Washes and the other mickey mouse internships we have seen.

darkpagandeath

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2014/0305/600292-live-register/

So it did not fall below 400k...

The seasonally adjusted figure for the number of people on the Live Register has fallen below 400,000 for the first time since May 2009.

The figures, however, do not include the 85,028 people who are availing of programmes helping the long-term unemployed return to the workforce.

shroom007

or all the people who left

darkpagandeath

Then just earlier had the minister on the News going on about 120 jobs to be created by some American company in the next 2 years like they were taking on 120,000

Cookie_Monster

why can't we run the Dail on these internships?
get rid of all the shysters, rotating government every 9 months, 99% saving on wages and benefits. Can't possibly do a worse job than current.
I see no downside :pac:

shroom007

saw a jobscum position that the minimum requirment was a PHD in chemical engineering about 2 weeks ago right next to the advanced tyre carwash Bolton st jobscam position,everyone should be checking their site every now and then see who's feeding of the unemployed.

sligoface

shroom007 wrote: »

saw a jobscum position that the minimum requirment was a PHD in chemical engineering about 2 weeks ago right next to the advanced tyre carwash Bolton st jobscam position,everyone should be checking their site every now and then see who's feeding of the unemployed.

What we also need to do is raise the issues to candidates coming up tot he forthcoming elections and find out where they stand. This scheme is a joke, and I won't be voting for any one who supports it. This government intend to force slavery onto the youth of Ireland because they can't do a darn thing about unemployment and this is the only way they can say they are improving it - by using schemes to fiddle figures. These schemes do nothing but support a lie. You can bet their kids won't be on these schemes.

The only reason they are getting away with it is because many people in employment either harbor resentment towards people on the dole, or just don't care because it doesn't affect them personally. Meanwhile those of us on the dole feel powerless (and we are in a lot of ways) to do anything about it.

All we can do is try to get another party to declare they will scrap slavebridge and vote them in, and cross our fingers that they won't break their promise once they are elected. I'd say it would be extremely optimistic that both those things could happen, but that is the only way to get rid of these slave schemes that they intend to force on the poor and the working class people who have committed the crime of becoming unemployed during a recession cause by the greed and incompetence of the wealthy.

Job-bridges, Gateways, pathways to work, what's next? Job-corridors, zebra-crossings to work, escalators to employment? Give me a break, we can see what these scheme are no matter what silly name they come up with (and it cost them 1 billion just to come up with and implement these schemes, that's not including the weekly payments to participants, that's just for the brilliant ideas.)

ThirdMan

sligoface wrote: »

What we also need to do is raise the issues to candidates coming up tot he forthcoming elections and find out where they stand. This scheme is a joke, and I won't be voting for any one who supports it. This government intend to force slavery onto the youth of Ireland because they can't do a darn thing about unemployment and this is the only way they can say they are improving it - by using schemes to fiddle figures. These schemes do nothing but support a lie. You can bet their kids won't be on these schemes.

The only reason they are getting away with it is because many people in employment either harbor resentment towards people on the dole, or just don't care because it doesn't affect them personally. Meanwhile those of us on the dole feel powerless (and we are in a lot of ways) to do anything about it.

All we can do is try to get another party to declare they will scrap slavebridge and vote them in, and cross our fingers that they won't break their promise once they are elected. I'd say it would be extremely optimistic that both those things could happen, but that is the only way to get rid of these slave schemes that they intend to force on the poor and the working class people who have committed the crime of becoming unemployed during a recession cause by the greed and incompetence of the wealthy.

Job-bridges, Gateways, pathways to work, what's next? Job-corridors, zebra-crossings to work, escalators to employment? Give me a break, we can see what these scheme are no matter what silly name they come up with (and it cost them 1 billion just to come up with and implement these schemes, that's not including the weekly payments to participants, that's just for the brilliant ideas.)

Are people being forced to accept a Jobsbridge internship?

manlad

ThirdMan wrote: »

Are people being forced to accept a Jobsbridge internship?

Your social welfare gets reduced if you're not actively pursuing the job advertised, yes.

ThirdMan

manlad wrote: »

Your social welfare gets reduced if you're not actively pursuing the job advertised, yes.

I'm currently on BTEA and I'm finished my degree in June. I'm on the look out for a genuine legal internship. I dread to think I'm gonna be forced into one of these things.

darkpagandeath

ThirdMan wrote: »

I'm currently on BTEA and I'm finished my degree in June. I'm on the look out for a genuine legal internship. I dread to think I'm gonna be forced into one of these things.

According to some councillor/party member on that Vincent Browne peoples debate. These free work schemes should not make people feel any less valuable than there paid colleagues. (Nearly punched the telly at that one)