Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

The Jobbridge Scandal

Options
1…5253555758…195

Comments

  • Options
    #1622
    Xenji
    Registered Users Posts: 11,505 ✭✭✭✭Xenji


    SeanSouth wrote: »
    No, Im afraid its you who are missing the point and heres the point again in graphic detail.

    Lets picture a company X with two employees
    Every month the sales are 2
    Every month the costs are 2
    The profit each month is NIL

    John Negative joins the company as a jobbridge intern. John doesnt really want to be there and complains on each tea break how unfair it all is. John observes and assists to a certain degree but fails to add any value to the business.
    At the end of the month the sales and the costs are still 2. This is repeated for the next five months. John then leaves the company

    Joan Enthusiastic joins the company as a jobbridge intern the following Monday.
    Joan is pleasant, easy to work with and full of ideas. Joan asks the boss to set her some goals and sets out to achieve them. Joan informs the boss that she has good knowledge of social media and web development and offers to take care of setting it all up. She explains to the boss that she feels confident that with a good website , a properly targetted marketing campaign and a social media presence that she can improve the sales. At the end of the 1st and 2nd month there is no change to the profitability of the business. At the end of month 3, the sales have risen to 2.5. At the end of month 5, the sales have risen to 3 and at the end of month 6, the sales are at 3.5. The costs have remained the same. The business is now making 1.5 per month profit. The boss is delighted and can see how much value that Joan Positive as added to the company in just six months. He offers her a job.

    This illustration is completely exaggerated to make the point. Joan made her own job and that is the way people need to think about the jobbridge scheme.

    The days of just "getting a job" and sitting in the corner picking your nose are long gone. If you can make a contribution you will be sought out, otherwise you wont. Its not the responsibility of the government, or the capitalist employer to get you work. The responsibility is yours alone

    In this day and age people should not have to be groveling at the door of an employer with the promise of 9 months free labour and the slim hope of full employment in return at the end of that 9 months, especially if it is some mickey mouse internship, fair enough if it is for something worthwhile and is in line with what you have studied and the field of which you want to enter.

    Can you answer me a simple question, what was the sole reason for this scheme to be created and who was it originally intended for, because at the moment you are spouting a lot of rubbish as regards what you view the scheme to be.


  • Options
    #1623
    sligoface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭sligoface


    SeanSouth wrote: »
    Go after the skills and experience that you need and get yourself into a position where you can earn more for an employer than you cost. It really is as simple as that. If you do that and promote a healthy and enthusiastic attitude to your work, I can guarantee you that you will be out of jobbridge in no time and into full time regular employment.

    No you won't, because employers can just hire interns instead, they will choose a free worker almost every time.
    Jobbridge is a means to an end. Unfortunately its also a separating of the wheat from the chaff. People with bad attitude, low productivity, clock watchers and individuals with overbearing sense of entitlement will come and go. The others will succeed and do so rapidly.

    No it is a means of reducing live register numbers so they can lie to the people and say unemployment is going down when in fact the scheme costs the taxpayer more than the dole on its own.

    I suppose you think anyone not willing to work for free is chaff, and that they all have these bad qualities? Quite to the contrary. I've worked very hard in all the jobs I've had, and many of them were difficult and minimum wage or barely above. To not try my best at a job would feel unnatural tbh, because I know I am being paid a wage. But I'll be d@mned if I'll work for free for a company that is turning profits, alongside others who are doing the same work for a wage.

    Full time work is worth more than ten euro a day. There is a minimum wage for a reason, and if this wage 'makes it difficult to hire anyone' than maybe it's your business model that is chaff!

    But don't worry about that because lucky for you Mr. Businessman, the government is going to prop you up with free workers. Who's getting charity now?


  • Options
    #1624
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    SeanSouth wrote: »
    The days of just "getting a job" and sitting in the corner picking your nose are long gone. If you can make a contribution you will be sought out, otherwise you wont. Its not the responsibility of the government, or the capitalist employer to get you work. The responsibility is yours alone

    This, times a thousand. The employment landscape is shifting rapidly, i fear that many in this thread will still be complaining in 5 years after being left behind.


  • Options
    #1625
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    This, times a thousand. The employment landscape is shifting rapidly, i fear that many in this thread will still be complaining in 5 years after being left behind.

    Ah so all those people left Ireland to find jobs in another country for the crack.. Stop defending the indefensible. I have never herd so much tosh in regards to creating your own job. Amazing it's never happened before as no one would have a job would they. You know In history of the world. Well if there are still no jobs and the economy is flat yes they will still be complaining about schemes stopping real jobs being created. Name other countries were people create there own jobs ?


  • Options
    #1626
    SeanSouth
    Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭SeanSouth


    Unfortunately there are people on here who are so consumed with negtaivity
    and so hard done by that they cant see the woods from the trees. Of course there will be employers who try to take advantage of people in this scheme. So what, just ignore them. Its nothing to do with you. Concentrate on going after the job THAT YOU WANT and take a punt on it and take control of it.

    At the level of a dish washer it might be about some scummy employer looking for free labour however at a real graduate intern level (which is what I believe Jobbridge was designed for) its a six month window to give the employer a chance to try out the employee and vice versa. Cheap labour is the red herring here. Cheap labour is no good to the employer unless the employee is adding value. Most employess in graduate placements will add very little euro value in the 1st few months. Thats a well documented fact.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1627
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    SeanSouth wrote: »
    Unfortunately there are people on here who are so consumed with negtaivity
    and so hard done by that they cant see the woods from the trees. Of course there will be employers who try to take advantage of people in this scheme. So what, just ignore them. Its nothing to do with you. Concentrate on going after the job THAT YOU WANT and take a punt on it and take control of it.

    At the level of a dish washer it might be about some scummy employer looking for free labour however at a real graduate intern level (which is what I believe Jobbridge was designed for) its a six month window to give the employer a chance to try out the employee and vice versa. Cheap labour is the red herring here. Cheap labour is no good to the employer unless the employee is adding value. Most employess in graduate placements will add very little euro value in the 1st few months. Thats a well documented fact.


    Hang on cheap free labour is no good to an employer ? As long as they don't cost the company money Any value a free employee adds is pure profit. And saving the company money as they don't have to hire a person.


  • Options
    #1628
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    A reasonable job for a reasonable wage is all people want, not slave labour. How many times does it have to be said ?.


  • Options
    #1629
    ThirdMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭ThirdMan


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Hang on cheap free labour is no good to an employer ? As long as they don't cost the company money Any value a free employee adds is pure profit. And saving the company money as they don't have to hire a person.

    That's correct if you're talking about the 'dishwasher'. But it's not necessarily true if you're talking about a graduate internship, which is what Sean is referring to.


  • Options
    #1630
    SeanSouth
    Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭SeanSouth


    Doctors spend seven years in University. They dont get paid anything for it. They work hard but they don't consider it to be slave labour. Its a means to an end.Theres no guarantee that they'll get a job at the end but they probably will.
    They dont sit around all day complaining that the University is making money out of them on fees.

    I would encourage people to look at the jobbridge in a similar light. Concentrate on what the scheme can do for you. Let someone else worry about all the awful employers out there who are ripping people off and becoming millionaires on the back of it, roll eyes. That kind of negative thinking will eat you up inside.

    If jobbridge is not for you (and it wont be for everyone) discard it, move on and make an alternative plan. If you cant see any good in it for you, just forget about it. It will suit the go-getters. It wont suit the plodders


  • Options
    #1631
    BlatentCheek
    Registered Users Posts: 329 ✭✭BlatentCheek


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    This, times a thousand. The employment landscape is shifting rapidly, i fear that many in this thread will still be complaining in 5 years after being left behind.

    If the landscape is shifting rapidly to a point where people who aren't able to afford to work for free are left behind then it won't just be those people who will have a problem, it will be the rest of society that will have to support them or else protect itself from them. If you think a vast amount of people are just going to accept being "left behind" without demanding a piece of the pie then you're naive.

    Also, Normalising unpaid labour will just put your own job at risk in the long run as sooner or later an employer will ask why they're paying you when they can get someone else to do it for free. You may think that your role is so highly skilled that it can't happen but at a minimum movement of people from the sectors affected will exert a downward pressure on your wages.

    I could have made arguments about the affront to principles like fairness and basic human decency that forcing people to work for less than minimum wage amounts to but from your tone I think appealing to your own self interest would be more convincing.

    Personally I found that an unpaid internship was a useful launchpad into well paid employment but the Jobbridge set-up, with minimal conditions on employers and close to zero enforcement, is not intended as a launchpad. It is intended as a means to massage unemployment figures, and it is having the effect of undermining paid employment and destroying real jobs.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1632
    Xenji
    Registered Users Posts: 11,505 ✭✭✭✭Xenji


    The scheme was originally created to offer 3rd level graduates a chance to gain experience in their chosen field of study after they graduated and I have no issue with that, it was a good idea and for some reason people do not seem to know this fact. What I do not like is how the scheme has mutated and has been exploited, companies are doing some good work with interns, but the majority of placements you see now should have nothing to do with the scheme. When they started overlooking the fact that you needed a 3rd level education that was a nail in the coffin, the final nail came when they scrapped the 3 month cooling off period, meaning that once a intern finished the 9 months, you could hire a new one the next day.


  • Options
    #1633
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    ThirdMan wrote: »
    That's correct if you're talking about the 'dishwasher'. But it's not necessarily true if you're talking about a graduate internship, which is what Sean is referring to.

    Have you been reading anything I have said ? I have pointed out again and again jobbridge was designed for college graduates to get relevant experience in their field. Were have I said this is an issue ? I have issue with exploitation plain and simple. Giving a graduate relevant experience is a good thing. Gives them a leg up on the ladder into the workforce. Wanting an intern that has x qualifications with x experience is wrong. Saying go out work for free to make someone hire you is absolute nonsense. There is either a job or there is no job. That's the way it’s always happened. If you were not suitable you would not pass the interview and the employer usually has an evaluation period in your contract.


  • Options
    #1634
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    SeanSouth wrote: »
    Doctors spend seven years in University. They dont get paid anything for it. They work hard but they don't consider it to be slave labour. Its a means to an end.Theres no guarantee that they'll get a job at the end but they probably will.
    They dont sit around all day complaining that the University is making money out of them on fees.

    I would encourage people to look at the jobbridge in a similar light. Concentrate on what the scheme can do for you. Let someone else worry about all the awful employers out there who are ripping people off and becoming millionaires on the back of it, roll eyes. That kind of negative thinking will eat you up inside.

    If jobbridge is not for you (and it wont be for everyone) discard it, move on and make an alternative plan. If you cant see any good in it for you, just forget about it. It will suit the go-getters. It wont suit the plodders

    Yeah that's sure worked out well so far.... Tell me again why it's entry level jobs on these schemes again ?


  • Options
    #1635
    ThirdMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭ThirdMan


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Have you been reading anything I have said ?

    No.


  • Options
    #1636
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    ThirdMan wrote: »
    No.

    Nice contribution to the discussion. I only hope your job is not replaced with an intern as your company cant compete with others who abuse these schemes.


  • Options
    #1637
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    SeanSouth wrote: »
    Doctors spend seven years in University. They dont get paid anything for it. They work hard but they don't consider it to be slave labour. Its a means to an end.Theres no guarantee that they'll get a job at the end but they probably will.
    They dont sit around all day complaining that the University is making money out of them on fees.

    I would encourage people to look at the jobbridge in a similar light. Concentrate on what the scheme can do for you. Let someone else worry about all the awful employers out there who are ripping people off and becoming millionaires on the back of it, roll eyes. That kind of negative thinking will eat you up inside.

    If jobbridge is not for you (and it wont be for everyone) discard it, move on and make an alternative plan. If you cant see any good in it for you, just forget about it. It will suit the go-getters. It wont suit the plodders


    Ok so following on from your example, should Doctors after spending 7 years studying, only have job bridge opportunities open to them from hospitals, cause it would save the HSE a lot of money and we would find out which doctors are really good?


  • Options
    #1638
    Conall Cernach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭Conall Cernach


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Hang on cheap free labour is no good to an employer ? As long as they don't cost the company money Any value a free employee adds is pure profit. And saving the company money as they don't have to hire a person.
    Yes any free labour for the boss is good for the boss. Even having an intern run a hoover round the office for free is saving the boss having to pay some one else to do it.


  • Options
    #1639
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    SeanSouth wrote: »
    Unfortunately there are people on here who are so consumed with negtaivity
    and so hard done by that they cant see the woods from the trees. Of course there will be employers who try to take advantage of people in this scheme. So what, just ignore them. Its nothing to do with you. Concentrate on going after the job THAT YOU WANT and take a punt on it and take control of it.

    At the level of a dish washer it might be about some scummy employer looking for free labour however at a real graduate intern level (which is what I believe Jobbridge was designed for) its a six month window to give the employer a chance to try out the employee and vice versa. Cheap labour is the red herring here. Cheap labour is no good to the employer unless the employee is adding value. Most employess in graduate placements will add very little euro value in the 1st few months. Thats a well documented fact.

    you do realise that they can be up to 18 months long?,

    If employers want to try out someone they can give them a contract, they can put them on a 9 month probation.


  • Options
    #1640
    ThirdMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭ThirdMan


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Nice contribution to the discussion. I only hope your job is not replaced with an intern as your company cant compete with others who abuse these schemes.

    The answer to your question was no. I hadn't read any of your earlier posts.


  • Options
    #1641
    Xenji
    Registered Users Posts: 11,505 ✭✭✭✭Xenji


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    you do realise that they can be up to 18 months long?,

    If employers want to try out someone they can give them a contract, they can put them on a 9 month probation.

    They can only be either 6 or 9 months long, so you can do either three 6 month internships or two 9 month internships and they can not be with the same company.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1642
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    ThirdMan wrote: »
    The answer to your question was no. I hadn't read any of your earlier posts.

    Sorry crossed wires then the no on it's own looked like not listening at all to anything I'm saying :P


  • Options
    #1643
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    SeanSouth wrote: »
    Doctors spend seven years in University. They dont get paid anything for it. They work hard but they don't consider it to be slave labour. Its a means to an end.Theres no guarantee that they'll get a job at the end but they probably will.
    They dont sit around all day complaining that the University is making money out of them on fees.

    I would encourage people to look at the jobbridge in a similar light. Concentrate on what the scheme can do for you. Let someone else worry about all the awful employers out there who are ripping people off and becoming millionaires on the back of it, roll eyes. That kind of negative thinking will eat you up inside.

    If jobbridge is not for you (and it wont be for everyone) discard it, move on and make an alternative plan. If you cant see any good in it for you, just forget about it. It will suit the go-getters. It wont suit the plodders

    There is a big difference with that... They were not forced to go to university, they chose to go, to better their educational skills for the day they will encompass a good job from their skills.

    The jobbridge and gateway scenario is forced onto a person, especially for 25's and under if I'm correct but it goes up the chain-gang agelings as well. You are forced into it... Do you see or acknowledge the difference ?.


  • Options
    #1644
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    Xenji wrote: »
    They can only be either 6 or 9 months long, so you can do either three 6 month internships or two 9 month internships and they can not be with the same company.

    still no one needs to be working in a company 9 months for free, employers should know after 3 weather someone will meet the grade expected.


  • Options
    #1645
    sligoface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭sligoface


    I'm so sick of people saying 'Jobbridge is fine as long as it is used as intended, not abused by companies looking for free labor, blah blah blah,' that is a baseless defense of this scheme.

    It's like saying 'Leaving your front door open is really handy, as long as no one comes in and steals everything'.

    Look at the internships being advertised, it's a sick joke. Blatant, unchecked exploitation of unemployed people and abuse of government funds.

    Yes, those of us complaining are sounding negative and it won't take five years, we ARE being left behind, right now. Anyone who is not in employment and doesn't want to work for free, is leaving this joke of a place. They don't have to 'make their own jobs' in Oz or Canada, do they?

    Those of us who are out of work and against the scheme are not just whingers or 'John Negatives'. Unless you are willing to work for free yourself don't start insulting others who won't.

    When small businesses are extinct and there is no money in the coffers for pensions or anything else a few years down the road we'll all be wondering what happened. Well people on the dole and slave workers is what the younger generations will consist of, and these people won't have the money to buy goods at local businesses and don't pay tax either. Meanhile any young person who can get a bit of money together will leave before it is all gone and they are forced into picking either the dole or slavery. This culture of slavery is leading us down a very dark path and will do nothing to improve our economy or lessen our expenditure on social welfare. It isn't helping us now and it will cripple us even more in the future.

    There won't be any 'Joan Positives' left to bend over and take this BS. Hard workers, bright people, don't want to work for free, nor should they have to. They know this and they will leave Ireland at this first opportunity, meaning less customers and taxpayers and a continually contracting economy. But no, all of us against the scheme are just feeling sorry for ourselves, of course.


  • Options
    #1646
    ThirdMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭ThirdMan


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Sorry crossed wires then the no on it's own looked like not listening at all to anything I'm saying :P

    My mistake then. I should have elaborated a bit. I just hate when people try to worm their way out of a situation. I hadn't read your previous posts at that stage. There was no point in saying otherwise.

    I wrongly assumed that you were attacking Jobsbridge without any understanding of what the scheme is supposed to be doing, i.e. helping graduates enter their chosen profession. A lot of people don't understand that simple fact. That's not to say it isn't being abused. Of course it is. But we need to accept that it can be used correctly. There are plenty of people who have either obtained work through it, or had a very rewarding 9 months. I'm a law student, and I know some people on legal executive internships that honestly feel like they've a route into the profession. These people are, like myself, working-class. So-called 'non-traditional' law graduates. This is only anecdotal evidence, but it gives me hope that I won't be ripped-off if my only option is Jobsbridge.

    Anyway, as I said, I made an incorrect assumption about your angle on this. My apologies.


  • Options
    #1647
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    ThirdMan wrote: »
    My mistake then. I should have elaborated a bit. I just hate when people try to worm their way out of a situation. I hadn't read your previous posts at that stage. There was no point in saying otherwise.

    I wrongly assumed that you were attacking Jobsbridge without any understanding of what the scheme is supposed to be doing, i.e. helping graduates enter their chosen profession. A lot of people don't understand that simple fact. That's not to say it isn't being abused. Of course it is. But we need to accept that it can be used correctly. There are plenty of people who have either obtained work through it, or had a very rewarding 9 months. I'm a law student, and I know some people on legal executive internships that honestly feel like they've a route into the profession. These people are, like myself, working-class. So-called 'non-traditional' law graduates. This is only anecdotal evidence, but it gives me hope that I won't be ripped-off if my only option is Jobsbridge.

    Anyway, as I said, I made an incorrect assumption about your angle on this. My apologies.

    I think your understanding of the current job bridge is incorrect, it is not solely for graduates, it is for anyone that has been on the dole for 3 months.


  • Options
    #1648
    SeanSouth
    Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭SeanSouth


    Hang on, I'm going to get my violin here to play a tune for the downtrodden workers.....................................

    The jobbridge scheme is not mandatory for anyone. Its another option, another opportunity to catapult people into the workplace. I'm no fan of the scheme personally but I have seen it work very well for interns and employers. I've also heard of accounts where it hasn't worked out for either party
    Its very easy to say that all the benefits are on the employer side. Any employer taking it seriously will be putting a lot of training into a candidate without any tangible returns initially. When its working well, the intern will typically be "the taker" in the 1st few months and the employer "the taker" in the latter months. Its a balancing act and its up to the parties to ensure that balance exists. I wouldn't dream of advertising for an intern. The chances of landing a "disgruntled lemon" are way too high. On the other hand if someone took the initiative and approached me with a well thought out proposal, I would accept it in a heartbeat.

    There are lots of options outside job bridge including retraining, self employment, volunteering, emigrating, sitting on your bum etc etc...............
    Everyone to their own. Unfortunately, the world has changed and the days of employers handing out jobs to people who feel entitled are well gone.

    The minimum wage and the euro has screwed up everything in this country. Any employer who does offer a position is struggling to make it break even and this manifests itself in highly stressed workplaces and long hours. Our high cost base makes us very uncompetitive as a nation. We are competitive in highly skilled areas but we are out of the game in almost all manufacturing and internationally traded services.


  • Options
    #1649
    Xenji
    Registered Users Posts: 11,505 ✭✭✭✭Xenji


    While it may not be mandatory, people are left with no choice in some cases, looking around my town no stores or businesses are offering jobs anymore, nothing in the paper nor jobs sites besides experienced management work and that is very few as well, but go on the JobBridge website and you will find over 30 jobs offerings, that to me is very wrong and it is a terrible trend regardless of what anyone tells me.


  • Options
    #1650
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    SeanSouth wrote: »
    Hang on, I'm going to get my violin here to play a tune for the downtrodden workers.....................................

    No need, just let me know your opinion about my proposal of doctors who did 7 years in college, being shown the job bridge applications form when they go looking for jobs in hospitals.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1651
    SeanSouth
    Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭SeanSouth


    @Sligo face - "They don't have to 'make their own jobs' in Oz or Canada, do they?

    Well you might not be aware but 50% of American jobs (120 million people) are in "non-employer enterprises" ie - micro businesses of self employment

    The employment golden goose that we once knew and loved with gold plated pensions and company cars is in rapid decline. The stars well still get employment
    but my fear is that the people in the middle ground are now facing a new reality in all continents


Advertisement