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The Jobbridge Scandal

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    #1802
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    sligoface wrote: »
    I agree with your sentiment but I'm confused, if you had an intern you wouldn't have been handing him a paycheck, interns are paid into their bank acct by the DSP.

    The fact that your not actually paying them a penny is worse again tbh.


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    #1803
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Stavros Murphy wrote: »
    Would you like to live on that? .


    nope. I'm living on €188 at the minute and trying my best to get off it. I'm dead against jobbridge btw. I spent half of last year on about 8 quid a week more (before USC etc) as an apprentice too. I had no problem with that as it was supposed to be going somewhere. Training is one thing but being paid way less than minimum wage for doing a proper job isn't on imo.

    If it didn't take 9 months to learn it before jobbridge was invented, then it most likely still doesn't. I have plenty of experience of work , 17 years of it in fact, in fairly different types of job, I don't need 9 months to learn how to work in a shop . I spent 5 years in one before and I was well up to speed long before I was there 9 months.


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    #1804
    Stavros Murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,440 ✭✭✭Stavros Murphy


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    nope. I'm living on €188 at the minute and trying my best to get off it. I'm dead against jobbridge btw.

    I'd rather rob banks, tbh.


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    #1805
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,026 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    sligoface wrote: »
    He can't answer those types of questions,, he just likes to try to defend the scheme because he's a fine gaeler. He tried to tell me that I was overstating the impact of the scheme on unemployment in Sligo earlier in the thread. This story just ran in our local newspaper, stating that we have the highest percentage of people on internships in the country. http://sligoweekender.ie/2014/03/27/sligo-highest-rate-people-jobbridge/

    People seeking work can see plainly the amount of internships vs. the amount of paid jobs on the fas website and it is sickening. Yes there are many more in employment than on Jobbridge but most of them have not been made unemployed in the last few years due to the recession, and most are not recent graduates. Those two groups are being screwed big time because employers have little incentive to offer paid positions when they can take on free labour through a government sponsored scheme.

    Jobbridge is not helping the unemployed to get jobs, it just makes it look like the government has done something to help the jobless when in fact it has the opposite effect. Companies now realize they have no need to pay wages for any position from barman to solicitor. How can this be helping the unemployed?

    Our jobless rate is much higher than what is reported, and would be seen to be much higher if it weren't for emigration and people on schemes being excluded from official numbers. Those are absolute facts. And immigration, especially among young people is anything but modest, any of my friends who could afford to have left, and many of the foreign workers I know have moved back since the recession hit. Anyone who thinks this scheme is helping, or that things have greatly improved, must have their head buried deep in the sand.

    So according to your link there are 144 on Jobbridge in all of Co Sligo at present. And 507 have taken part in the scheme since it started. You were taken in by the newpaper spin concentrating on the percentage of the workforce which this represents. Which in statistical terms compared to the other counties is completely insignificant.

    Thanks for providing me with the perfect proof to support my argument. Jobbridge is a very minor element of employment in Co Sligo. And indeed all around the country where there are never many more than around 6,500 on the scheme at any given time.


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    #1806
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Stavros Murphy wrote: »
    I'd rather rob banks, tbh.

    If it wasn't against the law I would have. I don't want my choices limited by the prison library :D


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    #1807
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    So according to your link there are 144 on Jobbridge in all of Co Sligo at present. And 507 have taken part in the scheme since it started. You were taken in by the newpaper spin concentrating on the percentage of the workforce which this represents. Which in statistical terms compared to the other counties is completely insignificant.

    Thanks for providing me with the perfect proof to support my argument. Jobbridge is a very minor element of employment in Co Sligo. And indeed all around the country where there are never many more than around 6,500 on the scheme at any given time.
    What are the numbers like when the people on CE schemes being paid the dole + €20 are added in? Plus any other schemes?


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    #1808
    Stavros Murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,440 ✭✭✭Stavros Murphy


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    If it wasn't against the law I would have. I don't want my choices limited by the prison library :D

    Reading can be fun too.


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    #1809
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    So according to your link there are 144 on Jobbridge in all of Co Sligo at present. And 507 have taken part in the scheme since it started. You were taken in by the newpaper spin concentrating on the percentage of the workforce which this represents. Which in statistical terms compared to the other counties is completely insignificant.

    Thanks for providing me with the perfect proof to support my argument. Jobbridge is a very minor element of employment in Co Sligo. And indeed all around the country where there are never many more than around 6,500 on the scheme at any given time.

    what of CE schemes,TUAS (think that's the name),
    back to education schemes(not the same I know),pointless FAS courses etc.

    what im trying to say is how many people are getting paid by the state and not apperaring as on the dole,as if these schemes wernt there they would!!!

    im deliberately leaving out pension,maternaty leave, disability etc

    exactly how many are being hidden by these scheme....keep hereing of recovery,yet anyone I know says its as hard as ever to get a job (even lowpaid jobs:mad::mad:)!!!


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    #1810
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,026 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    What are the numbers like when the people on CE schemes being paid the dole + €20 are added in? Plus any other schemes?

    Read back through the thread. It has been discussed many many times. The answer is around 85,000 with about half of these being back to education and training placements. They should be counted as students and the ones on the schemes should be counted among the numbers at work. But the schemes have been going on for decades and they have always been counted separately so there is no new underhand effort to massage any figures.

    It is interesting to see that even when unemployment was at it's lowest with only about 100,000 on the dole we still had over 60,000 on the schemes then.


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    #1811
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Read back through the thread. It has been discussed many many times. The answer is around 85,000 with about half of these being back to education and training placements. They should be counted as students and the ones on the schemes should be counted among the numbers at work. But the schemes have been going on for decades and they have always been counted separately so there is no new underhand effort to massage any figures.

    It is interesting to see that even when unemployment was at it's lowest with only about 100,000 on the dole we still had over 60,000 on the schemes then.

    why would they...there still getting paid by the state??


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    #1812
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,026 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    why would they...there still getting paid by the state??

    They are not the same as the people not on any scheme who are looking for employment. If anyone is interested in the figures they are all here. One of the tables at the bottom of the page gives detailed figures for the schemes (Activation Programmes).

    http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lr/liveregisterfebruary2014/


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    #1813
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    dxhound2005 wrote: »

    It is interesting to see that even when unemployment was at it's lowest with only about 100,000 on the dole we still had over 60,000 on the schemes then.

    Nobody cares about fudging numbers in the good times, but it's handy to have those 85,000 in your back pocket when the bad times roll around.

    Joan Burton loves her stats. As I explained earlier in the thread, I signed off the dole 3 times last year. I bet I'm counted 3 times in her stats for numbers signing off last year.


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    #1814
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    They are not the same as the people not on any scheme who are looking for employment. If anyone is interested in the figures they are all here. One of the tables at the bottom of the page gives detailed figures for the schemes.

    http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lr/liveregisterfebruary2014/

    They are a lot closer to being unemployed and getting the dole than permanent employees of businesses so why not count them as the former rather than moving them to the latter?


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    #1815
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,026 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    They are a lot closer to being unemployed and getting the dole than permanent employees of businesses so why not count them as the former rather than moving them to the latter?

    If someone started counting them differently than they have been counted for the last 30 or 40 years would that not distort the figures?


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    #1816
    Nodster
    Registered Users Posts: 950 ✭✭✭Nodster


    I'm on the register a mere 50 odd days, but already the Social have suggested [in a 1 to 1 interview] Jobsbridge as an option...after over 30 years solid employment


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    #1817
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    If someone started counting them differently than they have been counted for the last 30 or 40 years would that not distort the figures?

    Just because the numbers have been fudged for 30 or 40 years doesn't mean its right. regardless of what way you look at it they are still collecting the dole but not being count as doing so.

    What justification is there for a supermarket getting someone on jobbridge in to stack shelves? up till now they have had 16 year olds able to walk straight in and do it. Why does it take 9 months of 40 hours a week to learn all of a sudden?


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    #1818
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,026 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Just because the numbers have been fudged for 30 or 40 years doesn't mean its right. regardless of what way you look at it they are still collecting the dole but not being count as doing so.

    OK just add them on to the Live Register figure every month for the last 40 years. Maybe we should add on university students as well. They are getting money from the State to take part in education just the same as most of the activation scheme participants.


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    #1819
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    . Maybe we should add on university students as well. They are getting money from the State to take part in education just the same as most of the activation scheme participants.

    Were they sidestepped from the dole in to these courses on a similar weekly rate? Are they being farmed out as free labour to private businesses (outside of work placenments relative to their course before you bring that up)

    The reality is this magical half a million figure of unemployed they were afraid of was well broken.


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    #1820
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,026 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Were they sidestepped from the dole in to these courses on a similar weekly rate?

    The reality is this magical half a million figure of unemployed they were afraid of was well broken.

    Yes, there is a scheme for people who lost their jobs and went on the dole to retain their dole while doing a university degree. One designed to retrain them to enter the paid workforce again.


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    #1821
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    They are not the same as the people not on any scheme who are looking for employment. If anyone is interested in the figures they are all here. One of the tables at the bottom of the page gives detailed figures for the schemes (Activation Programmes).

    http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lr/liveregisterfebruary2014/

    them figures....how is there exactly 5000 on VTOS with 3 years.no fluctuation atall:confused::confused:
    85K on schemes of which 24K on BTEA and the magic 5000 on VTOS

    that leaves 55K on the schemes that are hidden...which are unemployed only been made to take these schemes which in a lot of cases are pure pointless

    the unemployment figures appear to drop 30K of which 13,855 are on jobbridge,TUAS or part time job scheme (whatever that is-296)

    so only around 16K jobs...this being said you'll want someone better than me to analze figures???

    on basic glance this appear to be the way...hopfully someone better than me can point out where I read wrong there...im sure it cant be that bad:o


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    #1822
    Stavros Murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,440 ✭✭✭Stavros Murphy


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Were they sidestepped from the dole in to these courses on a similar weekly rate? Are they being farmed out as free labour to private businesses (outside of work placenments relative to their course before you bring that up)

    The reality is this magical half a million figure of unemployed they were afraid of was well broken.

    if you throw the unmentioned ones who emigrated, you get a whole new number. A big one at that.


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    #1823
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Nodster wrote: »
    I'm on the register a mere 50 odd days, but already the Social have suggested [in a 1 to 1 interview] Jobsbridge as an option...after over 30 years solid employment


    there slipping up takes 3 weeks in Waterford:D
    though to be fair they made up some good cv for me (pity jobs few and far between...il give it two more months)


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    #1824
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,026 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Stavros Murphy wrote: »
    if you throw the unmentioned ones who emigrated, you get a whole new number. A big one at that.

    Throw in the number of immigrants arriving here to work and then do the sums again.


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    #1825
    Stavros Murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,440 ✭✭✭Stavros Murphy


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Throw in the number of immigrants arriving here to work and then do the sums again.

    Madness. Like being in a house that is starving and inviting the neighbours round for the craic..and dinner...


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    #1826
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Throw in the number of immigrants arriving here to work and then do the sums again.

    Presumably they are either getting jobs , on the dole or wealthy enough to be supporting themselves so if they are either of the first two they are counted. If they are the 3rd they are no burden and are paying in so that's no bother.


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    #1827
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,026 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Stavros Murphy wrote: »
    Madness. Like being in a house that is starving and inviting the neighbours round for the craic..and dinner...

    OK ignore the the people coming here from abroad to work. But why do you equate emigration with unemployment. People emigrate for various reasons and some of them have jobs here when they leave.


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    #1828
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    OK ignore the the people coming here from abroad to work. But why do you equate emigration with unemployment. People emigrate for various reasons and some of them have jobs here when they leave.

    How about those supermarket jobsbridge positions? Came across a nice general operative one too yesterday.


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    #1829
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,026 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Again if people are interested in the CSO figures for emigration and immigration. They are a year out of date but the offer some guidance.

    http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2013/

    So about 35,000 Irish nationals emigrated in one year. There is no way of knowing how many were unemployed when they left.


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    #1830
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,026 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    How about those supermarket jobsbridge positions? Came across a nice general operative one too yesterday.

    I presume that is why there are always about 2,500 placements which nobody wants. And Jobbridge have never got anywhere close to filling their 8,500 maximum placements.


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    #1831
    sligoface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭sligoface


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    So according to your link there are 144 on Jobbridge in all of Co Sligo at present. And 507 have taken part in the scheme since it started. You were taken in by the newpaper spin concentrating on the percentage of the workforce which this represents. Which in statistical terms compared to the other counties is completely insignificant.

    Thanks for providing me with the perfect proof to support my argument. Jobbridge is a very minor element of employment in Co Sligo. And indeed all around the country where there are never many more than around 6,500 on the scheme at any given time.

    Hardly supports your argument when one of the hardest hit areas of the country for unemployment has the highest percentage on a free labor scheme. It shows what people are forced to do when the government cannot provide a real answer to unemployment. Another recent article stated that half the storefronts in town are empty. That's not spin, that's fact. Many businessea have closed and the few that are left are using Jobbridge which means anyone looking for work here is going to have a lot of difficulty.

    How is it minor when literally half the jobs on the fas website in my area are unpaid internships? Do you really think all of us on here complaining about so many job ads being for internships and being for positions like bar and waitstaff are just exaggerating?

    Forget about numbers, do you think there should be government sponsored internships for bar and waitstaff? Do you think free labor can actually help decrease levels of unemployment? If so, please explain how, I'd love to hear it.

    I have a problem with the scheme because I can see clearly that it is a major obstacle in my goal of finding paid work, and that's why I post here. If you were a young adult jobseeker you might understand, but the only reason you keep coming on here to defend the scheme is because you support the political party that implemented it. And just like them, you're out of touch and choose to deny the simple fact that the availability of free labor has a negative affect on the amount of paid work.

    Seriously, when it's pointed out that the scheme is being abused and companies are exploiting people the best you can do is say that it's only 6500 people being exploited? How is that a valid defense?


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