The Jobbridge Scandal

Permabear

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runawaybishop

Permabear wrote: »

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Ah FAS, that bastion of efficiency and good resource utilisation.

osarusan

Nuts102 wrote: »

In my job i learned to use a scanner so i learned a new skill. Took me 5 seconds but i learned a new skill so throw me in the 89%.

Indeed. 34% responded to the statement 'gave me new skills' by choosing option b - 'a little', in compariosn with option a - 'a lot' (55.3%) and c - 'none at all' (10.7%).

To say that almost 45% of respondents, after in many cases 9 months or training and mentoring, did not feel they had been given a lot of new skills, would, in my opinion, be a more valid interpretation of the data.

Xios

Permabear wrote: »

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If then, there are these schemes in place for training already, then why is a private employer allowed to use the manual labour of an individual who can get these skills through a FÁS scheme already.

Edit:/ Also, 48 weeks seems to be this number FAS likes to just pull out of the air. My father and I did a course on CompTIA A+ it took a few weeks, I can't remember the organisation that commissioned the course, could've been FAS. Well anyway, we completed the course, I went back to College, My dad applied for a computer skills course through FAS, he sat through apititude tests, interviews and eventually got to starting the course. It was a COMPTIA A+ course that was run over 48 weeks, same course, same modules, but 46 weeks longer.

Based on my experience, that 48 week number is grossly over what is required. If I was to take a guess, these courses are designed to take this long in order to skew the live register numbers.

Ann Landers

Permabear wrote: »

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I learned to make coffee to a high standard working in a deli. Really good coffee, people loved our coffee. I learned a new skill, right? Took me a day to learn. The job as a whole took a week or two.

osarusan

To comment on the green-keeping internship - I have no problem with it. Green-keeping on a golf course is a skilled job, and there are definitely many things to learn.

To Permabear's dismay, I don't break things down into 'graduate' versus 'menial' jobs. If there is an internship that will teach an intern valuable skills, and it takes time to learn them, I've no problem with that.

My problem is with the blanket defence of every internship up there and a refusal to contemplate that some of them are rather long for the skills learned.

bugsntinas

why don't they introduce the good old fashion apprenticeship then people would be happy to work for the little bit extra knowing full well that there is a guaranteed job at the end.

Permabear

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Permabear

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runawaybishop

Permabear wrote: »

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Its like a wizard of Oz convention in here, the amount of straw men.

garp

Permabear wrote: »

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Then do so. Stop throwing around stats that you are not backing up within the same post. As in 99.9% [ taken from here page 7] for an example.
Thank you.

Xios

Permabear wrote: »

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"CERTIFICATION: FÁS/City & Guilds" - Evidence of Experience, Cert to bring to interviews, structured education environment. All things a Jobsbridge scheme seems to be lacking in.

If jobsbridge is so successful then why are there so many people on their second internship? Surely if it helped get do many people into employment extending it from 9 months to 18 was a bit of a waste of time.

Backstreet Moyes

I would have no problem doing a jobsbridge in Finance to help my degree once i was learning valuable skills. I had a problem making tea and being a secretary when i was supposed to be getting skills in payroll.

What i do have a problem with is businesses getting free interns to do jobs that require little or no training. If they want these people they should put €100 towards jobsbridge to bring the job up to minimum wage.

The businesses really should be required to asses the person after the internship. They should give a detailed report on the person and why they are not taking on this person.

osarusan

Nuts102 wrote: »

They should give a detailed report on the person and why they are not taking on this person.

I'm not too sure about that to be honest. There shouldn't be too much pressure on a host to justify their decision not to hire. The experience/training might be enough.

What I would like to see is a much more strict application process to be a host. The system in place now, where any postings are only retrospectively assessed (as in, if somebody complains, it will be looked at) is a farce.

Forget about standard lengths of 6 or 9 months. If a company wants to apply for an internship, they submit a detailed proposal outlining how long the internship is for, what the intern's position will be, what the timeline of the internship is, and how this internship will benefit the intern in terms of skills learned.

None of this vague 'formal/informal training' w@nk.

Xenji

It takes a one day course to be trained to use a lawnmower and another one day course for a bushcutter/strimmer, even for people on the Gateway scheme it is all the training they are getting before they will be doing it on the council estates.

osarusan

osarusan wrote: »

I'm not too sure about that to be honest. There shouldn't be too much pressure on a host to justify their decision not to hire. The experience/training might be enough.

The whole point of the scheme is that business get an I term for 9 months, after which they are supposed to be in a position to employ them or have a valid reason not to. After all, if the position takes 9 months to train a person in then it's on the businesses best interest to hire the intern.

Daith

Deleted User wrote: »

The whole point of the scheme is that business get an I term for 9 months, after which they are supposed to be in a position to employ them or have a valid reason not to. After all, if the position takes 9 months to train a person in then it's on the businesses best interest to hire the intern.

Nope, there's no requirement for the business to hire someone or give any reasons why they didn't.

osarusan

Daith wrote: »

Nope, there's no requirement for the business to hire someone or give any reasons why they didn't.

And I don't really think there should be. I can imagine companies being dissuaded from getting involved if they are asked to justify those decisions at the end of the internship. I mean companies that might otherwise offer meaningful internships.

I'd much rather they have to justify the internship itself before it is ever advertised.

Daith

Daith wrote: »

Nope, there's no requirement for the business to hire someone or give any reasons why they didn't.

It's not required but it was somewhat the while point of the scheme. It gave businesses 9 months to train an employee for free after which it was expected that they would keep on the individual.

Call Me Jimmy

Deleted User wrote: »

Those figures are somewhat skewed when you consider that a large number never finished the placement. As well as the fact that people like a friend if mine were told that learning to use a power washer and make percolated coffee was a skill that they had learnt thanks to jobsbridge. My friend was working in a position which was advertised as an IT role yet was out washing his boss's jeep and getting lunch for staff more than anything else.

Do you mind me asking, did your friend complete this? Surely he was within his right to report it and leave? Do the government expect someone to stay on in a falsely advertised/invalid jobbridge position?

Call Me Jimmy

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Do you mind me asking, did your friend complete this? Surely he was within his right to report it and leave? Do the government expect someone to stay on in a falsely advertised/invalid jobbridge position?

He completed it but made numerous complaints to FAS and the DSP. they told him that his payment would be affected if he didn't complete the internship and he was afraid that they'd cut it on him. He did go into FAS after the internship was over and tell them what he thought of them.

Call Me Jimmy

That is mad. If I were to report a Jobbridge placement being advertised I assume they would take it down at the very least. Yet if you only find out that it is not valid when you get there, tough?!

hypersquirrel

I'm currently coming towards the end of a Jobbridge. It is a graduate position and directly related to my field. Truthfully I'm quite happy with how it has gone. I like the host organisation and I like the job. That said I have very little time for the scheme as a whole.

Only once on the internship did Jobbridge check with me to see if the host organisation was carrying out their side of the bargain. On the other side of it the host submits a monthly compliance form to verify that I was actually showing up to the position. Essentially my compliance was checked every month while the host was checked once.

The Jobbridge scheme should be an excellent opportunity but it is not properly regulated and is open to gross exploitation.

The cooling off period should never have been scrapped. It helped to weed out the organisations who were simply looking for free labour. Any host taking on an intern for free labour is abusing the scheme. An intern is not there to do mindless tasks, they are there to learn. The benefit to the employer is a new source of fresh ideas and the opportunity to see a potential employee in action. Any intern worth their salt will bring significant benefit to an employer without getting stuck doing pointless busy work.

An "internship" in a supermarket is not acceptable. I worked as a "retail assistant" for four years. By the end of the first week I was able to do all basic tasks, by the end of the first month I was able to the rest. By the end of 3 months I was able to look after the place by myself. Yes an "internship" in a supermarket will give somebody experience of a workplace environment and give them self confidence but that can be better obtained by taking a Fas course that provides computer training, communication skills, time management etc and features two or three weeks of work experience. There is a big difference between work experience and an internship.

That does not mean that only graduate positions should have internships. There are any number of customer service and administration roles that would make for a great internship. An intern should finish up feeling that they have learned something significant that they could not have learned at home or in two days. Learning to stack shelves or operate a till is not the same as learning how to run a variety of specialist computer software yet neither require a college degree.

In order to make Jobbridge work they need to do a number of things;

All Jobbridge advertisements should be vetted before being allowed to go up.

All host organisations should state clearly and concisely what skills an intern will obtain and how.

The mentor's ability and availability to train an intern should be verified. Advertisements should also state the qualification/experience of the mentor.

Both the host and the intern should file a monthly report, not just the host.

An official inspection should be carried our every three months in which a member of Jobbridge will have a brief sit down talk with the mentor and intern both individually and collectively.

By the end of the 9 months the host organisation should be required to submit a form detailing the training the intern has received.


As for people saying that businesses can't afford to take on untrained staff for minimum wage. The JobsPlus initiative is in place to offset wage costs by €7500-10000 for an any employer who hires somebody off the Live Register.

Call Me Jimmy

Even though I have enjoyed reading the thread and the economic theorising, it seems 99% (no citation :P) of people agree that without abuse (as defined by the creators and administrators of the scheme) it is or would be a decent scheme. Most of what is being argued about is happening because the government are not sticking to their part of the deal, a deal whose terms they came up it with in the first place!

Idbatterim

As for people saying that businesses can't afford to take on untrained staff for minimum wage. The JobsPlus initiative is in place to offset wage costs by €7500-10000 for an any employer who hires somebody off the Live Register.

yes paid monthly into your account over 2 years, I believe to qualify for the maximum though, that the person has to have been unemployed for two years... I.e nigh on unemployable IMO, unless its somebody older who has only known one trade etc all their life and has family and / or financial ties. Ask yourself, would you as an employer, hire someone who had been out of work for two + years?

from citizensinformation.ie

Introduction

JobsPlus is a new employer incentive which encourages and rewards employers who employ jobseekers on the Live Register. This incentive replaces the Revenue Job Assist and Employer Job (PRSI) Exemption Scheme from 1 July 2013. It is designed to encourage employers and businesses to employ people who have been out of work for long periods. Eligible employers who recruit full-time employees on or after 1 July 2013 may apply for the incentive, which will initially operate on a pilot basis.

The Department of Social Protection will pay the incentive to the employer monthly in arrears over a 2-year period. It will provide 2 levels of regular cash payments:

A payment of €7,500 for each person recruited who has been unemployed for more than 12 but less than 24 months
A payment of €10,000 for each person recruited who has been unemployed for more than 24 months

I have a feeling that the money could be far better spent, creating real jobs instead of these training course merry go rounds! Add the cost of welfare + the cost of the course + loss of employers and employee PRSI, PAYE and USC.

Gongoozler

Idbatterim wrote: »

yes paid monthly into your account over 2 years, I believe to qualify for the maximum though, that the person has to have been unemployed for two years... I.e nigh on unemployable IMO

I was unemployed for over two years. I'm now 30, I have a degree, I'm in paid employment for 9 months. You clearly have no idea how bad things have been in the country when it comes to jobs, if you think being unemployed for 2 years means you're a write off.

Permabear

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sligoface

Gongoozler wrote: »

I was unemployed for over two years. I'm now 30, I have a degree, I'm in paid employment for 9 months. You clearly have no idea how bad things have been in the country when it comes to jobs, if you think being unemployed for 2 years means you're a write off.

Well done. It grinds my gears as well that so many people still live by the old cliche of 'You have to be in a job to get a job'. I had a man tell me last week 'I employ people but I won't hire someone who is unemployed.' These are usually the same people who give out about people on the dole! Makes no sense.

Clearly at this point, the recession has decimated employment levels so much that people should realize that the majority of people unemployed do not want to be and are victims of the recession. They are not all just lazy, work-shy, useless scroungers who just want to watch sit on the couch and watch Jeremy Kyle. But the unemployed still get portrayed that way. And then a scheme like this comes up and peope say that the unemployed should jump at the chance because 'It will get you off the couch/out of the house'. Which really annoys me. I hate being unemployed and do anything I can to fill my days with something productive. The only time I'll usually be on the couch is in the evening, which is the same as when I had a job.

But having a desire to be productive does not mean I should work for free for a business that is turning a profit. Yet I'd say half the time people sign up for these schemes and courses just to have something to do, have some reason to get up in the morning. But your rent and bills and food won't be magically paid for just because you've been getting up early and doing something. What you need is wages.

Unfortunately, Jobbridge is not getting people's foot in the door and bridgeing them into a job where they can earn wages, it's actually decreasing the amount of jobs available for the unemployed to take, replacing entry level waged jobs like waitstaff and retail assistant. And that's plain to see from the ads posted every day on the FAS website, which in my county actually outnumbers the amount of real jobs.

Valmont

I find it funny that sometimes the same people who say the minimum wage won't deter employers from hiring low-skilled workers also support the idea of taxing cigarettes and booze to discourage people from taking them up.