The Jobbridge Scandal

shruikan2553

Valmont wrote: »

If you're young and unattached there is no excuse to not be working. Pack your satchel and head to England or Canada or New Zealand. Or take a language course for a few months and go somewhere in Europe. The dole is high enough in Ireland for one to be able to squirrel away a bit for a move.

Or just carry on crying about how it's everyone else's fault.

Thats not really a solution though. We need those people to come back again and relying on emigration just shows poor government unable to come up with an actual solution to the unemployment problem.

The state has paid at least 40-50k on me going to college. It would be a shame if all of that money just went towards me paying tax in another country.

Dyr

Valmont wrote: »

If you're young and unattached there is no excuse to not be working. Pack your satchel and head to England or Canada or New Zealand. Or take a language course for a few months and go somewhere in Europe. The dole is high enough in Ireland for one to be able to squirrel away a bit for a move.

Or just carry on crying about how it's everyone else's fault.

Is that you norman tebbit? :rolleyes:

cloudatlas

There's hardly anything in the papers about jobs, careers or columns relating to either. I used to take heart reading 'The Dole Diary' but that stopped after only a couple of months.

WinterSong

Oh look, an internship for a qualified solicitor. Bastards.

Worth pointing out that in order to qualify as a solicitor you have to get a training contract which involves working with/being trained by the relevant firm, so it's not as if you qualify and could do with getting a bit of experience in legal drafting or whatever. Absolutely maddening.

sligoface

Valmont wrote: »

If you're young and unattached there is no excuse to not be working. Pack your satchel and head to England or Canada or New Zealand. Or take a language course for a few months and go somewhere in Europe. The dole is high enough in Ireland for one to be able to squirrel away a bit for a move.

Or just carry on crying about how it's everyone else's fault.

Anyone who can afford to has. Not all young people can live at home for free. I pay for my rent and all food and bills out of my dole with no rent allowance. There's nothing to squirrel. And I guess you missed the fact that the under 25s got the dole cut to either 100 or 144. You're also assuming that a young person living at home would not still be expected to help out with houehold bills and expenses, which would depend on the family, but in my house I would have been expected to. Anyone in a single parent home or even two parent home where there is a low income situation would be. Most of the people I know who immigrated did so with help from their parents and/or by working while they lived at home, not by saving the dole.

For the young people who can't afford to leave to access more employment opportunities, who are also facing major education cuts, 3rd level grant cuts, etc to be left with only the option of the dole or a slave internship is sickening, and really speaks volumes about the older generation who have sold the future of Ireland's young people away.

But your stance is, don't demand that any of this be changed, just feck off to Canada. Then I guess you think keeping talented young people working in Ireland, improving things in Ireland, paying tax in Ireland, etc is not a worthwhile goal. And I would strongly disagree with that. We need to break the cycle of poverty induced emigration and run the country better so that Irish people can live happily and proudly in the country of their birth if they choose to do so.

As the son of the two parents who emigrated to America during the last recession I can say with confidence that it is not going to solve everything by just having everyone unemployed leave. We need a better solution.

cloudatlas

Valmont wrote: »

If you're young and unattached there is no excuse to not be working. Pack your satchel and head to England or Canada or New Zealand. Or take a language course for a few months and go somewhere in Europe. The dole is high enough in Ireland for one to be able to squirrel away a bit for a move.

Or just carry on crying about how it's everyone else's fault.

Emigration is not a one stop solution for everybody it depends on your situation, skills etc. Some can't go due to financial constraints or family dependencies.

Learn a language for a few months and then go off somewhere? What a great idea I'll just do German or French for a few months and then be much sought after in a jobs market which is saturated with young people who have dual language proficiency and are also out of work. Let's see Paris there are no students protesting in the streets who can't find graduate jobs, what about Berlin oops high unemployment, er Spain then...?

Great idea. Or maybe I'll go to Canada, New Zealand or Australia despite warnings that the situation is becoming desperate in terms of finding even the most basic of entry level service jobs. Yes why don't we all get on a plane and wallow in even more debt.

Those with the skills have already secured jobs before the wheels of the plane even leave the tarmac. The Irish media supports the fallacy that the streets are paved with gold in other countries we just have to go and take it.

Ava_e

sligoface wrote: »

Anyone who can afford to has.

But your stance is, don't demand that any of this be changed, just feck off to Canada. Then I guess you think keeping talented young people working in Ireland, improving things in Ireland, paying tax in Ireland, etc is not a worthwhile goal. And I would strongly disagree with that. We need to break the cycle of poverty induced emigration and run the country better so that Irish people can live happily and proudly in the country of their birth if they choose to do so.

Well said, it is indeed about breaking that cycle of induced emigration and changing the perception of politicians who think it's "a gap year away traveling, isn't it's grand for them."

Penny Tration

Valmont wrote: »

If you're young and unattached there is no excuse to not be working. Pack your satchel and head to England or Canada or New Zealand. Or take a language course for a few months and go somewhere in Europe. The dole is high enough in Ireland for one to be able to squirrel away a bit for a move.

Or just carry on crying about how it's everyone else's fault.

Okay, so let's pretend I, at 25 years of age, am unemployed and single (although I'm neither).

I'd get 144 pw on the dole, iirc.

I'd be paying 100 pw on rent and bills (that's how much my contribution is at home, and is less than it'd cost me to support myself).

That leaves me 44 pw to buy food, toiletries, underwear, clothing.

Please tell me how I would save to move country. It'd take me a couple of years on the dole to save the few grand needed to emigrate.

Then, I'd have to leave my friends and family behind and hope to god I could get a job abroad.

Not easy to do.

Anyone that can afford to, has already left this country. It's not as easy as hopping on a plane and saying 'see ya later.'

Aside from that, it's not my generation's fault that this country is in the ditch. Why should I have to leave my home country to make up for our previous useless, corrupt government and the gob****es that took out mortgages for 600k on a 35k wage?

How about everyone who caused the recession fcuks off instead of the people who didn't cause it?

What if there was a graduated system - internships that require a leaving cert or equivalent are limited to three months say, ones that require a cert or ordinary degree limited to six months and ones that require an honours degree could go for nine months?

KyussBishop

Valmont wrote: »

If you're young and unattached there is no excuse to not be working. Pack your satchel and head to England or Canada or New Zealand. Or take a language course for a few months and go somewhere in Europe. The dole is high enough in Ireland for one to be able to squirrel away a bit for a move.

Or just carry on crying about how it's everyone else's fault.

U6 unemployment (the measure used by the EU) for the UK is around 13%, Canada is also around 13%, and New Zealand is around 8.5%; unemployed per job vacancy in the UK is around 5-6, for Canada it's around 4-5; a different statistic for New Zealand (since the same vacancy stats are not available), job applications per job opening, is around 25.

Again, there are not enough jobs for all of the unemployed - not here, not worldwide; it's another form of the fallacy of composition, which I'll stick on the growing list:
Fallacy of Composition|Reality
"JobBridge reduces unemployment"|JobBridge helps some unemployed workers, compete against the rest of the unemployed, for the same number of jobs (with exceptions for skill-shortage roles - with no stats to quantify JobBridge's contribution here).
"Removing minimum wage boosts employment"|This can reduce wages/aggregate-demand/business-profits and then reduce employment.
"Slashes wages can boost employment"|For the same reasons as above, can reduce employment.
"People can get a job, they just need to put more effort in and try harder, to retrain into skilled roles that are in demand"|There are not enough jobs available, not everybody will be employed, no matter how hard they all try or how much effort they collectively put in.
"In a worldwide economic downturn, people can get a job, they just need to emigrate"|In a worldwide downturn, similar to above, there are not enough jobs available, not everybody will be employed, no matter how many emigrate.
"Competing on exports (e.g. by slashing wages) can bring recovery"|If all of the world tries to import less and export more all at once (which a great many of our trading partners are, due to the economic crisis), they will all fail, and it will be a race-to-the-bottom in wages/living-standards.
"Cutting government spending and increasing taxes (austerity) can bring recovery"|Cutting government spending and increasing taxes, reduces aggregate demand, which harms employment and economic activity.
"A government budget surplus is good"|A budget surplus, without adequate exports to offset the money this removes from the private sector, can drain the private sector of money and cause an over-reliance on credit/debt (which can create an unsustainable debt bubble).

You gotta love how some people have such disdain for the young. Stating that if you're young and unemployed you should emigrate is just nonsense. Maybe if those morons who took out huge mortgages and loans so that they could buy a new car every year and pay for the shooing trips to New York actually took some responsibility rather than trying to pass the buck.

The government are already penalising young people by slashing their dole payments. It's almost impossible to live on €100 a week unless you live at home. It's as if the government wants to force people to nice home with their parents as there's no way you could live in a city or decent town in the country on €100 a week. It's the most ridiculous and unfair practice the government had yet initiated. We keep hearing about how the government are pressurising the banks into debt forgiveness so that those who created this mess get off with a slap on the wrist while those with nothing to do with the current situation are being. penalised. I'd sooner see those idiots with a half a million euro mortgage on a €30 thousand salary be forced to pay off their debts than have the young be so marginalised and penalised for something they had nothing to do with.

TwoShedsJackson

At least the solicitors firm are acknowledging you'll be left on your own when you get in there:

The candidate will be overseen by the principal in the firm however should be a self starter, able to act on own initiative, be a self starter,be detail orientated, with good interpersonal, organisational, IT and research skills. He/she should be able to work effectively and pro-actively, be reliable in meeting target deadlines. Flexibility is important and ability to multi task is key.

deirdremf

Valmont wrote: »

If you're young and unattached there is no excuse to not be working. Pack your satchel and head to England or Canada or New Zealand. Or take a language course for a few months and go somewhere in Europe. The dole is high enough in Ireland for one to be able to squirrel away a bit for a move.

That's lovely, just lovely.
May I paraphrase?
"Fuck off out a here, we don't want your sort around these parts."

And while I'm here, you might like to tell me why you think that the people of New Zealand, Canada or England have a duty to provide the young people of Ireland with a job?

Backstreet Moyes

Are their many jobs in Ireland for somebody with a foreign language. I always liked French in school and i have German cousins so i have a small grasp of the language. I am looking for courses in FAS but i have a Finance Degree so i don't see any of their computer courses doing much for me. So i am thinking of learning a new language while i am out of work.

PopePalpatine

Valmont wrote: »

If you're young and unattached there is no excuse to not be working. Pack your satchel and head to England or Canada or New Zealand. Or take a language course for a few months and go somewhere in Europe. The dole is high enough in Ireland for one to be able to squirrel away a bit for a move.

Or just carry on crying about how it's everyone else's fault.

Ah of course, don't try to change the country. That's the same sort of attitude that the gombeens ruling this country had 60 years ago, because it was better to ship 30-50k people out of the country every year than to have them vote for a real alternative.

The lack of empathy of laissez-faire **** is just sickening.

Idbatterim

Thats not really a solution though. We need those people to come back again and relying on emigration just shows poor government unable to come up with an actual solution to the unemployment problem.

Well when they government protected the strong, as a generalization and big grouping, those in the PS and pensioners, someone was always going to suffer to keep their slice of the cake as big as possible, fairly obvious who it was... Its an absolute disgrace, and I say this as someone who is currently employed and has been all my adult life. The only ones with valid cause to march on Dail Eireann are those who have been shafted after a calculated choice taken by the last and current government...

Are their many jobs in Ireland for somebody with a foreign language. I always liked French in school and i have German cousins so i have a small grasp of the language. I am looking for courses in FAS but i have a Finance Degree so i don't see any of their computer courses doing much for me. So i am thinking of learning a new language while i am out of work.

The problem is, it takes 600-800 hours of teaching delivery to become fluent in a language, in Ireland, the most intensive you can do as a group class AFAIK is 3 hours per week, if you want to learn it quickly, you would have to move to the country or they might offer more intensive classes somewhere huge like London, which might have the demand to satisfy the need. Then again with London being so expensive, it would probably be best to just move to the country.

Ann Landers

WinterSong wrote: »

Oh look, an internship for a qualified solicitor. Bastards.

Worth pointing out that in order to qualify as a solicitor you have to get a training contract which involves working with/being trained by the relevant firm, so it's not as if you qualify and could do with getting a bit of experience in legal drafting or whatever. Absolutely maddening.

Plus, many trainee solicitors are paid a pittance whilst training unless they train with the big 5. And a solicitor who trained in a big 5 wouldn't need to do an internship. So, you train as a solicitor whilst living on next to nothing and you are then expected to work once qualified for E238 per week?

ivytwine

cloudatlas wrote: »

Emigration is not a one stop solution for everybody it depends on your situation, skills etc. Some can't go due to financial constraints or family dependencies.

Learn a language for a few months and then go off somewhere? What a great idea I'll just do German or French for a few months and then be much sought after in a jobs market which is saturated with young people who have dual language proficiency and are also out of work. Let's see Paris there are no students protesting in the streets who can't find graduate jobs, what about Berlin oops high unemployment, er Spain then...?

Great idea. Or maybe I'll go to Canada, New Zealand or Australia despite warnings that the situation is becoming desperate in terms of finding even the most basic of entry level service jobs. Yes why don't we all get on a plane and wallow in even more debt.

Those with the skills have already secured jobs before the wheels of the plane even leave the tarmac. The Irish media supports the fallacy that the streets are paved with gold in other countries we just have to go and take it.

I agree with this. I was strongly considering emigrating, had even made overtures to securing a TEFL job in SE Asia, and then I got cold feet and took in job in Dublin instead.

For ages I wasn't even sure what had stopped me, but I realised- I'd go off to Asia, have a blast (no doubt) and then come home to this again- no transferable skills (without a 2 year H Dip) facing into Jobbridges and so on.

I'm hoping to go back to college part-time. I made a mistake in my choices originally, but I'm hoping this will give me the skills I need to earn a decent wage. However- I'm not knocking those who've gone- the wonderlands of Canada and Australia are only that if you have manual skills. Friends over there are working in call centres; the same as what they would be doing here.

WinterSong

Ann Landers wrote: »

Plus, many trainee solicitors are paid a pittance whilst training unless they train with the big 5. And a solicitor who trained in a big 5 wouldn't need to do an internship. So, you train as a solicitor whilst living on next to nothing and you are then expected to work once qualified for E238 per week?

I'm genuinely completely disgusted by it. I was already hoping to qualify in the UK but things like this just seal the deal!

ivytwine

Nuts102 wrote: »

Are their many jobs in Ireland for somebody with a foreign language. I always liked French in school and i have German cousins so i have a small grasp of the language. I am looking for courses in FAS but i have a Finance Degree so i don't see any of their computer courses doing much for me. So i am thinking of learning a new language while i am out of work.

Lots in customer service in Dublin- however with a degree of fluency more than LC level (not to burst your bubble).

My advice (for what it's worth) work on getting both your French and German up to scratch and then search around. You don't need to spend money- tapes in the library, give those German cousins a Skype, and programmes like Duolingo (I'm not working for them I swear!) would help no end.

Valmont

Approximately 87,000 Irish people emigrated to the UK in 2012 to find work. You can bet they didn't complain that they had to spend their dole on underpants and baked beans. If you don't like what they offer or don't expect the state to come up with anything genuinely helpful then what are you still doing there?

cloudatlas

Valmont wrote: »

Approximately 87,000 Irish people emigrated to the UK in 2012 to find work. You can bet they didn't complain that they had to spend their dole on underpants and baked beans. If you don't like what they offer or don't expect the state to come up with anything genuinely helpful then what are you still doing there?

I suppose it is the safer option as if it doesn't work out then you can always get a cheap flight back home, the fact remains that it might not be convenient for everyone who has family dependencies. Not a simple decision in any case. A side issue for anyone who emigrates is that they give up their right to vote which I find incredible.

ivytwine

I'd love to know how many teachers, nurses, doctors and other assorted medical personnel emigrated to the UK out of that figure. I know a girl living in Oxford and the NHS is paying for her MSc degree.

Absolutely disgraceful that we are exporting all that medical expertise to another country and I don't doubt we will feel the effects of that shortsightedness in years to come.

KyussBishop

Valmont wrote: »

Approximately 87,000 Irish people emigrated to the UK in 2012 to find work. You can bet they didn't complain that they had to spend their dole on underpants and baked beans. If you don't like what they offer or don't expect the state to come up with anything genuinely helpful then what are you still doing there?

And again the fallacy of composition:
Fallacy of Composition|Reality
"JobBridge reduces unemployment"|JobBridge helps some unemployed workers, compete against the rest of the unemployed, for the same number of jobs (with exceptions for skill-shortage roles - with no stats to quantify JobBridge's contribution here).
"Removing minimum wage boosts employment"|This can reduce wages/aggregate-demand/business-profits and then reduce employment.
"Slashes wages can boost employment"|For the same reasons as above, can reduce employment.
"People can get a job, they just need to put more effort in and try harder, to retrain into skilled roles that are in demand"|There are not enough jobs available, not everybody will be employed, no matter how hard they all try or how much effort they collectively put in.
"In a worldwide economic downturn, people can get a job, they just need to emigrate"|In a worldwide downturn, similar to above, there are not enough jobs available, not everybody will be employed, no matter how many emigrate.
"Competing on exports (e.g. by slashing wages) can bring recovery"|If all of the world tries to import less and export more all at once (which a great many of our trading partners are, due to the economic crisis), they will all fail, and it will be a race-to-the-bottom in wages/living-standards.
"Cutting government spending and increasing taxes (austerity) can bring recovery"|Cutting government spending and increasing taxes, reduces aggregate demand, which harms employment and economic activity.
"A government budget surplus is good"|A budget surplus, without adequate exports to offset the money this removes from the private sector, can drain the private sector of money and cause an over-reliance on credit/debt (which can create an unsustainable debt bubble).

With, again, the UK having a U6 unemployment rate of 13%, and an unemployed-per-job-vacancy rate of 5-6; meaning emigrating to the UK (or other countries for that matter), will not solve the unemployment problem.


This line of argument, favouring emigration, is starting to show the same level of disingenuousness as Permabear, where - as the discussion goes on - it becomes clear that the person posting the argument doesn't even believe it themselves, but are just using it as cover to frame the debate, for implying something completely different - in this case, that the unemployed are just lazy/indolent (see other fallacy above...).

Again, it smacks of choosing an argument, any argument - whether they know it's fallacious/nonsense or not - to fit the narrative they want to create in the debate, and then to push that narrative irrespective of any contradicting facts; not to actually debate anything.

Valmont

ivytwine wrote: »

I'd love to know how many teachers, nurses, doctors and other assorted medical personnel emigrated to the UK out of that figure. I know a girl living in Oxford and the NHS is paying for her MSc degree.

Absolutely disgraceful that we are exporting all that medical expertise to another country and I don't doubt we will feel the effects of that shortsightedness in years to come.

I know a good few psychologists and nurses who moved to the UK simply because the jobs on offer with the NHS were far more lucrative (and plentiful) than those offered by the HSE.

dxhound2005

Valmont wrote: »

I know a good few psychologists and nurses who moved to the UK simply because the jobs on offer with the NHS were far more lucrative (and plentiful) than those offered by the HSE.

That just goes to prove that not everyone emigrating is doing so because they are unemployed. And that 87,000 emigrating to UK is just a made up figure anyway. I think if you look at the salaries on offer from the NHS there are no fortunes to be made there either.

Cantona's Collars

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I think if you look at the salaries on offer from the NHS there are no fortunes to be made there either.

Still better than being worked to the bone for €6 an hour here "while you gain experience".

ivytwine

Valmont wrote: »

I know a good few psychologists and nurses who moved to the UK simply because the jobs on offer with the NHS were far more lucrative (and plentiful) than those offered by the HSE.

That wasn't really the point I was making. I mean, fair play to them for going over there and making money. To be frank if I was a doctor or nurse I would be a fool to stay here- it is downright criminal what the HSE are doing. (There's been at least one reported suicide of junior doctor in Ireland due to stress)

It's all very well to saying more power to their elbow but we, as a country, are screwed if we keep on exporting our youth like this. It's all down to the complete lack of vision on our leaders' part. The poster who said Yeats was wrong about it being no country for old men is dead on. This is a country for the old man in an ill-fitting suit with a moribund imagination and an inflated sense of self-worth.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

KyussBishop

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Note that Permabear here equates, support for 'fairness' and 'equality', with resentment of success and wealth (a resentment he presents no evidence of).

No, really....if you support fairness and equality, you resent 'success' and 'wealth' - QED.