Will an American need a visa for a prolonged stay?

Shawn the Mick

Hi Everyone,

This is a follow up on the American's coming to Ireland sticky above. I'd like to move to Ireland and stay for years if not forever. I'm a bit confused as to whether I'd be able to do so without a visa of some sort.

I work over the internet managing investments and can show enough financially to prove I would not be a burden on the state. I have heard that American's cannot stay beyond 3 months. I would need some sort of visa (student, etc.) no matter what my financial situation is.

I have insurance, everything I would need hypothetically, and would not be seeking employment while in Ireland. Could I just show up, have a pleasant meeting with the Immigration Officer, show whatever paperwork, and stay (with yearly renewals and such) ?

Really hoping this is the case because everything else seems to be quite the pain. And shipping my furniture over is going to be costly so I'd like to stick around for a bit.

As a follow on question, if I were to stay for 5 years (I believe it would be 5) would I then be eligible to become a naturalized citizen?

Thanks in advance!

SpaceTime

Yes, you would require a visa if you were planning to stay more than 90 days in Ireland and you cannot work without a work permit.

I'd suggest that you get in touch with the Irish Embassy in Washington about the visa situation for long-stay.

http://www.embassyofireland.org/

Embassy of Ireland
2234 Massachusetts Ave NW
Washington DC 20008
Main Tel: 1-202-462-3939
Fax: 1-202-232-5993

(although I think much like the US embassy in Dublin, they've a premium rate number 1900 or something to get visa information).

Regarding a work permit, you'd need to speak to the DJEI (Department of Jobs, Enteprise and Innovation)

http://www.djei.ie/labour/workpermits/

Bear in mind that if you're basically resident here i.e. beyond 90 days (and you appear to be talking about annual renewals so I assume you're intending to stay for a few years) you would be liable for income tax on the income that you're earning in the USA.
If you're resident here and working for a foreign company, that's exporting a service.

Shawn the Mick

Thanks SpaceTime,

I was really hoping to avoid having to obtain a visa. And I have no intention of working for anyone other than myself, so I won't be seeking a work permit. As for taxes, with the dual tax treaty between the US and Ireland I would not have to pay taxes in both countries (and would prefer paying Ireland over the US anyway).

My questions were prompted after reading numerous posts stating that "extending" my stay in Ireland would be nothing short of a formality (given someone has adequate financial means). Essentially, entering on a visitor visa (3 month sort), meeting with the Immigrations Officer showing financial paperwork, and then extending as needed/wanted.

From what you are now saying, this is not so. I'll try to confirm with the Embassy but I'm guessing they will not state that the above extension scenario would "officially" be OK. If I find out some new info I'll be sure to post.

Thanks again!

Shawn the Mick

Update after viewing the Embassy website....

http://www.embassyofireland.org/home/index.aspx?id=30814

At the top of this link is the Immigration Act 2004 (Visas) Order 2012. Just below the Act is a statement regarding who needs a visa to enter Ireland, which is posted below.

"Citizens of certain countries require an entry visa for Ireland.

If you are a citizen of a country that is on Schedule 1 of the Immigration Act above, you do NOT require an entry visa for Ireland. Citizens of countries which are not on the list must apply for a visa before they travel to Ireland."

The USA is on Schedule 1 which would qualify as "not needing an entry visa". So, trying to piece together info, it would appear as though an American could visit Ireland without a visa. Perhaps this is tied into the other posts stating that an extension could be granted by an Immigrations Officer in Ireland should all paperwork, financials, etc. be in order - allowing for one to stay beyond the 3 month limit being discussed.

This is my goal. I won't be seeking a work visa, have no problem paying the Irish government taxes while I'm resident, and would be ecstatic if I could use my stay to eventually become a naturalized citizen.

I'd love to hear some thoughts from anyone familiar with a situation such as this. And thanks again SpaceTime for the post.

SpaceTime

If you're working for yourself and *reside* in a country you're self-employed in that country.

You would need to check at what stage irish tax authorities would consider you tax resident here and liable to pay income tax. There are specific time limits and you'd be best advised to speak to an Irish accountant if you're living here.

The tax traties between countries usually just mean they wouldnt tax you twice and some level of coordination exists in terms of data sharing.

You can't just move somewhere and pay no tax in the long term or continue to pay income tax at home. The work you would be doing is being carried out by you in Ireland, not in the USA.

Also your health insurance may not necessarily cover you for long term migration. You would quite likely need to take out Irish health insurance and it would also be quite likely more cost effective too.

You can stay up to 90 days however. The data in that embassy site is a bit confusing and appears to be aimed at short stays.

Basically you've 90 days visa waiver of you are here as a tourist / visitor or on business. Beyond that, you would need to regularise your situation with a visa.

You could also try calling the American Embassy in Dublin or maybe the Irish American Chamber of Commerce. They might be able to point you in the right direction.

Just bear in mind that immigration rules here are quite strictly enforced as is tax law. It could get rather messy if you don't get everything organised correctly before you make a move.

That being said, I honestly don't find irish systems all that onerous to deal with. They're usually pretty straight forward and you speak the same language so it should be easy enough.

If you have any rights to Irish or other EU citizenship via a parent or grandparents etc it might make moving here a lot more straightforward!

Definitely ensure your situation is regularised though as both immigration and tax law is pretty rigorously enforced in both the US and Ireland.

Shawn the Mick

Thanks again SpaceTime!

keithclancy

Shawn the Mick wrote: »

Thanks SpaceTime,

I was really hoping to avoid having to obtain a visa. And I have no intention of working for anyone other than myself, so I won't be seeking a work permit. As for taxes, with the dual tax treaty between the US and Ireland I would not have to pay taxes in both countries (and would prefer paying Ireland over the US anyway).

My questions were prompted after reading numerous posts stating that "extending" my stay in Ireland would be nothing short of a formality (given someone has adequate financial means). Essentially, entering on a visitor visa (3 month sort), meeting with the Immigrations Officer showing financial paperwork, and then extending as needed/wanted.

From what you are now saying, this is not so. I'll try to confirm with the Embassy but I'm guessing they will not state that the above extension scenario would "officially" be OK. If I find out some new info I'll be sure to post.

Thanks again!

You still need to file, but may be eligible to to reduce your American Tax to zero:
http://americansabroad.org/issues/taxation/us-taxes-while-living-abroad-faq/

You will need a visa.

You will need to register for a PPSN

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Personal-Public-Service-Number-How-to-Apply.aspx

You will need to file a yearly return with Revenue.
http://www.revenue.ie

Going to Ireland and working for yourself on a Irish Short-stay Visa Waiver can end up in you being forcefully deported from the country (I know of one American this happened to, he was given the choice of Limerick Prison or booking the next available flight home)

In short i'd get all the paper work in order before even thinking about it.

Same if you go from Europe to the U.S.

SpaceTime

The paperwork isn't that onerous, particularly in the tax side of things, the Irish system is actually quite 'user friendly' compared to most EU countries.

I would suggest that you get an accountant though. It's easy enough to end up missing out on various things that you should have paid or claimed against.

Overall when I've been self-employed I've found accountancy advice really useful.
Most accountants will guide you through how to keep records for tax and expenses too.
There are also various options on voluntary contributions to social insurance fund which are advisable if you want to be resident long term as they count towards state pensions and unemployment benefit.

Again speak to an accountant here when you arrive and they'll set you up.

A PPS number is also needed for most things to do with state services but also for opening bank accounts etc. It's the equivalent of a social security no in the USA

Shawn the Mick

Thanks all, I have my head around the tax perspective of things and I appreciate you bringing up that angle. Many people find out afterwards that they should have made a plan prior. My problem now is how to get a visa. I won't qualify for a work visa, nor will I need one. Only thing I can think of is to go back to school which would grant me a student visa.

Anybody have any thoughts on how someone in my situation can be in Ireland for more than 3 months at a time?

Thanks again!

SpaceTime

You'd be able to get a student visa if you're registered for a recognised third level course here.
So, you could apply to do a graduate degree of some sort or a PhD.
You'd have to be a genuine student though and it doesn't necessarily grant you rights to work here or may limit them quite seriously.

With regard to Self-employed taxation in Ireland : http://www.revenue.ie/en/personal/circumstances/moving/working-self-employed-individual.html explains all.

I checked into this a bit more earlier on and apparently you may need to have a "business permission" to carry out freelance work from Ireland as a non-EU citizen which is actually pretty serious as you have to show evidence of €300,000 in your accounts and stuff.

You might actually be better off trying to find a job here and seeing if you can get a proper work permit.

Do you know anyone in Ireland who might need your skills and could employ you or help you find work?

They have to prove that no EU citizen could realistically fulfil the role (much like US immigration policies for non US citizens), but it's doable if you have specific sets of skills and can make a case.

With regard to nautralisation :

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Citizenship

Bear in mind that you would have to have been in Ireland continuously for a 'lawful purpose', so realistically you would need to have a proper visa / set of visas covering that period to prove that.

If you have Irish parents or grandparents, there's also a route :

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

Shawn the Mick

Thanks again SpaceTime