contractor issues - damage and delays

NeptunesMoon

one of my customers needed some furniture put together in their house thats getting renovated at the moment. I wasn't free myself so got a guy in who I had used before. The customer is paying me and I pay the contractor. It's me the customer is dealing with and my reputation on the line, I'm charging the customer based on time, and paying contractor based on time.

The contractor had to collect some of the furniture and I told him what order to buy it in so it would fit in the van easier, he didn't follow this and had to spend some time rearranging the van. He got it to the house and started working on it during which time he knocked over a tin of paint a painter had left at the side, not closed properly and only covered with a takeaway cup lid. He was saying it shouldn't be his fault as the painters had left a few things in the room giving him not a lot of space to work. He cleaned it up after I had to ask him to. I'm not charging the customer for either the van rearrangement time or cleaning up the paint time but the contractor wanted to charge me for this time.

Weve agreed i wouldn't be paying him for van rearrangement time but he doesn't seem to want to take responsibility for knocking the paint over and thinks i should pay him for the cleanup time, citing public liability and duty of care. he diddnt get to finish all on the one day and left some of my tools back covered in paint without cleaning them too. He left a piece of furniture half complete to be finished the next day (fair enough, was a long day).

he was sick the next day so i called on another lad I'd also used before. He started on the piece that was half way done and the first lad had left one piece sitting on top of the main unit that had to be hammered in, the 2nd lad didn't assess it properly and started to hammer the bit in. turns out he hammered it to the wrong side and now there were nail holes on the front of the unit. he's saying the first lad started so he just finished, the first lad is saying he didnt start to hammer but would have also done it the wrong side if he continued. i agreed with the 2nd lad hed go back to the shop to get the replacement parts. fortunately the shop agreed over the phone to replace them for free. then the 2nd lad ended up not being able to go back to the shop at this stage i was available so i disassembled the piece, got the replacement parts and reassembled all in taking a few hours. customer happy.

my biggest mistake i know is not having actual contracts in place to cover this stuff. so without any contracts or agreements made, what way does it work?

seems the contractors dont want to take any responsibility for their negligence and feel it should fall back on me since im dealing with the customer and they are just contractors.

so who do you think should be responsibile for these?:

van rearranging time
cleaning up paint spill time
if paint damaged anything, replacement cost (it didn't)
if shop charged for replacement parts, replacement costs
trip to shop time +fuel and disassembly and reassembly time?

and what are my options in the case of contractors not agreeing to things in my favour?

I do have insurance but would only use it on higher claims and in this case Id be wondering too, if I use my insurance on contractor negligence, im then stuck with a much higher premium.

one final question, how would all this change, if at all, if the contractors in question were in fact employees?

cheers!

Caldor

The OP linked me to this post as an aide in the discussion of the disagreement, and in the same vein I'd like to make clear a few facts;

1. I suggested taking 30 minutes from my wages to cover the extra time it took to rearrange the loading of the van. For rearranging the van I got an assistant at the store to help me in order to speed things up and gave him a couple euro tip out of my own pocket.

2. Painters at the house of delivery were still working when I arrived. They had their gear and materials around the rooms, and were to be there for another couple of hours. They assisted me in carrying the items in to the rooms that they were still working in (no other option). Unbeknownst to me, a tin of paint was left on the fireplace, the only thing covering it was a takeaway coffee lid, and in moving the stuff around, an item was pushed against the tin. Later that evening when I moved the stuff back from the fireplace, the paint spilled - I saw the tin for the first time after it had spilt. Since, from my perspective, it was an unavoidable accident I don't see why I should be docked the 30 minutes it took for me to clean the spillage since I don't believe it was my fault. I've already explained all of this to the OP. I immediately cleaned up what I could with bits of cardboard, but didn't have anything to clean up the stain of the paint until OP told me there were babywipes in the car, which I then used.

3. I was not citing public liability and duty of care in relation to the paint spill, that was in relation to another incident where I fell on a wet floor in a business premises, and OP thought it was irresponsible of me to want any form of compensation for the medical bills (3rd party, completely unassociated with OP).

4. I didn't clean the single screwdriver that got paint on it after the job because I was working for the OP from 10am until 2am, was sick (doctor+antibiotics the next day) and exhausted. (fwiw, the day before the job I had told OP that I'd likely be exhausted by the next evening as I knew I was coming down with something. I told him this because he was asking me if I could do another evening job after this one)

5. For context, the job was massively underestimated by both the customer and OP. It was thought I'd be able to make it to another customer by around 9pm, but was only about half way through when I had to finish at 1.30am because I was wrecked.

5. Yes I made the mistake of putting the back panel on the wrong side of the piece of furniture, and if I had have continued would have hammered it in (the reason I didn't continue was because I wasn't provided with a hammer). I put this mistake down to dip in concentration, it was probably around midnight at that point. I don't dispute my responsibility for that mistake, but the fact that I wasn't actually the one who hammered the nails in, and the fact that I had been working for about 14 hours at that point with only about 15 mins break makes it contextually disputable and would certainly benefit from others input.

Thanks for reading.

Graham

I'd suggest both parties sit down and have a discussion to see if they can come to an agreement. If either of you expect/want to work together again in the future I'm sure you're not going to let the above get in the way of that.

Unless paint was spilled over a ming vase or a persian rug, I can't imagine the sums involved amount to any more than the cost of a night out (if even).

Failing that, perhaps boards has a Judge Judy forum tucked away somewhere.

The Apprentice

Mod Edit Sorry.. No specific legal advise please.

Caldor

Thanks for the replies so far.

Just to insert at this point for context, in relation to the possible (and probably eventually inevitable) damaging of expensive goods, that myself and the other 'subcontractors' are not professional subcontractors with regular work from OP and other companies, with our own insurance etc. We get a few hours about once a month from OP when he gets extra business, for a fixed hourly rate.

NeptunesMoon

cheers for the replies. glad to see the legal side of things supporting me.

with regards Caldors post above, I wouldn't have thought this changes the responsibility, it's up to them to have insurance etc to cover themselves, not up to me to get someone who has insurance, other than to avoid such lengthy discussions or possible legal action in the case of their negligence and unwillingness to accept responsibility.

As we agreed payment based on time taken, the compensation for the extra time taken will be the price agreed.

I feel as I am in essence, Caldor's customer and as he took on the job, it's also up to him to assess what's required of them, asking as many questions as possible and finding out as much as possible of the job and if he takes on the job and isn't able to finish it due to time restrictions or falling ill, he should try help to remedy getting it finished. The same way I should to the home owner, them being my customer.

The job took longer than expected but I had other arrangements in place to go to the other customer that evening (I had even agreed with the other customer it may be the next morning) and had also backup in the case of Caldor letting me down and not being able to finish the job agreed to.

So you're saying that I should in essence be able to seek compensation from Contractor 1 or 2 for my time spent with disassembly, returning to store and reassembly but there's just too much discrepancy over who should bare responsibility between contractor 1 and 2 to make any course of recuperation worthwhile? I was never considering going this route as I knew it would be too messy and to be honest, I'm just happy that my customer is happy and infact very appreciative of my level of service when things don't go to plan. I do think with me being Caldor and the other contractors customer, good customer service in this case would be to implement a discount for the hassle caused to me.

Graham

I don't think anyone has given legal advice here, there has just been an opinion or two stated.

To add another opinion. If I as a the lead/head/final customer employ your services to provide a particular service, I would expect your insurance to cover the provision of that service. If you should then choose to sub-contract the delivery of that service to a third party, I would also expect you to ensure that the 3rd party is similarly covered. Whether that is through an extension to your existing cover, or making sure the 3rd party has their own adequate coverage. This is assuming the original party hired you to complete a specific task rather than hiring you to manage sub-contractors on their behalf.

NeptunesMoon

Yes the job would be fully insured. If something went wrong, I would fully cover my customer and then it would be up to me to recoup anything from my sub contractor. If I want to make things easier on myself in the case of any such situation, I should be hiring insured subs.

This isn't the first time I've had issues of negligence and omitting responsibility with Caldor, another time he was driving my car on a job, the oil light came on, he checked the oil, he said the level was ok, but the light didn't turn off, he continued driving it for about 250km with the oil light on and without even so much of a phone call to me to tell me of the issue, the engine packed in and died. He did nothing to help find a replacement and I paid 600eur between parts and labour and how many hours going to scrap yards, mechanic and back.

He is related which is why I continue to use him when stuck.

stcstc

not sure who is right or wrong here

BUT

would say arguing the point on a public forum, when there is some kind of dispute i dont think helps any of you

would suggest talking it through and solving it, privatley, so none of your customers get to read about it on the internet

Graham

stcstc wrote: »

would say arguing the point on a public forum, when there is some kind of dispute i dont think helps any of you

+1

I was beginning to wonder whether this was a wind-up. Even more so now it appears moving in the direction of a family mud-slinging.

Peterdalkey

There have been some pretty odd threads on here in the past but this one is right up there!! Could it be resolved with a reader poll, a hand of cards or just the toss of a coin?

thesandeman

ACT 1 Scene 3:

Sub-Contractor two enters from left brandishing hammer.....

dbran

Folks

This is not a free legal aid site. Sort it out privately or get a solicitor.

dbran