Dublin Positions Itself as Transatlantic Hub

murphaph

Interesting how things are developing with DUB. Great that it's finally fulfilling it's (natural) potential as a hub between NA and Europe (and beyond). Well done to all concerned with making it happen.

How is capacity at DUB? How much room for growth is there with the current terminals?

Tenger

crisco10 wrote: »

.....
I know they did Dubai years ago but stopped (why?)...

-Sub par product for the market. (no PTV and reduced J Class product )
-Bad timing for connections to Asia/Australia
-No code-share agreement in place for said connection.

I knew some EI cabin crew at the time who had previously worked in the Gulf. They knew the arrival/departure time was not compatible with convenience for connection to EK departure/arrival waves.


On the plus side EI made a profit on the cargo side of things as they were able provide a one stop transit to West Coast USA....DXB-DUB-LAX and vice versa. Emirates now have that sewn up with their 40+ ULD spaces on the B773ER. (I think its >40!!)

Idbatterim

Interesting how things are developing with DUB. Great that it's finally fulfilling it's (natural) potential as a hub between NA and Europe (and beyond). Well done to all concerned with making it happen.

How is capacity at DUB? How much room for growth is there with the current terminals?

From the below link, it can handle up to 35,000,000 "comfortably"

http://www.dublinairport.com/gns/about-us/airport-development.aspx


uk passengers etc transferring through Dublin has also caught the attention of the media over there...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/11000457/Is-Dublin-Airport-eating-Heathrows-lunch.html

LXFlyer

murphaph wrote: »

Interesting how things are developing with DUB. Great that it's finally fulfilling it's (natural) potential as a hub between NA and Europe (and beyond). Well done to all concerned with making it happen.

How is capacity at DUB? How much room for growth is there with the current terminals?

There's plenty of room once the first wave of shorthaul flights go out.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

There's plenty of room once the first wave of shorthaul flights go out.

There is not a huge amount of capacity when it comes to L/H departures between 9-12.30 during summer. Now you could squeeze some more in during the times however any new L/H services added will likely require a re working of airline schedules like happened this year to get most efficient use of capacity and possibly further increased USPC staff which will cost airlines. It puts pressure on the 300 gates which mid morning can be all full at times.

AirMechMan

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is not a huge amount of capacity when it comes to L/H departures between 9-12.30 during summer. Now you could squeeze some more in during the times however any new L/H services added will likely require a re working of airline schedules like happened this year to get most efficient use of capacity and possibly further increased USPC staff which will cost airlines. It puts pressure on the 300 gates which mid morning can be all full at times.

I know that they say that the passenger terminals are capable of handling more than the current rate, but terminal two is way too small for the amount of widebody departures they have at the moment.

Now that aerlingus are looking to add one or two more 330's next year, it's gonna be tough. Etihad and Emirates are both interested in increasing capacity too, that will cause further difficulty.

I can see the 300 stands becoming part of terminal two permanently, and being used for Canadian flights than don't require preclearance, and narrowbody aerlingus flights. Are lingus regional will probably end up using the remote stands more often in the mornings, and that would allow space for the widebodys on the 400 and 300 stands at terminal two.

The USA bound flights have no choice but to use the 400 stands due to pre clearance.

I guess it would cause problems for the airlines currently using terminal one that want to use jetbridges, as there would be no stands left in t1 with jetbridges. Maybe we will see airlines moving over to t2, such as British airways, Lufthansa etc.

Either way big changes will happen next summer, terminal two is simply too small now from what I can see.

billie1b

AirMechMan wrote: »

I know that they say that the passenger terminals are capable of handling more than the current rate, but terminal two is way too small for the amount of widebody departures they have at the moment.

Now that aerlingus are looking to add one or two more 330's next year, it's gonna be tough. Etihad and Emirates are both interested in increasing capacity too, that will cause further difficulty.

I can see the 300 stands becoming part of terminal two permanently, and being used for Canadian flights than don't require preclearance, and narrowbody aerlingus flights. Are lingus regional will probably end up using the remote stands more often in the mornings, and that would allow space for the widebodys on the 400 and 300 stands at terminal two.

The USA bound flights have no choice but to use the 400 stands due to pre clearance.

I guess it would cause problems for the airlines currently using terminal one that want to use jetbridges, as there would be no stands left in t1 with jetbridges. Maybe we will see airlines moving over to t2, such as British airways, Lufthansa etc.

Either way big changes will happen next summer, terminal two is simply too small now from what I can see.

Do British Airways use the 100 or 300 stands at the minute?

Jamie2k9

AirMechMan wrote: »

I know that they say that the passenger terminals are capable of handling more than the current rate, but terminal two is way too small for the amount of widebody departures they have at the moment.

Now that aerlingus are looking to add one or two more 330's next year, it's gonna be tough. Etihad and Emirates are both interested in increasing capacity too, that will cause further difficulty.

I can see the 300 stands becoming part of terminal two permanently, and being used for Canadian flights than don't require preclearance, and narrowbody aerlingus flights. Are lingus regional will probably end up using the remote stands more often in the mornings, and that would allow space for the widebodys on the 400 and 300 stands at terminal two.

The USA bound flights have no choice but to use the 400 stands due to pre clearance.

I guess it would cause problems for the airlines currently using terminal one that want to use jetbridges, as there would be no stands left in t1 with jetbridges. Maybe we will see airlines moving over to t2, such as British airways, Lufthansa etc.

Either way big changes will happen next summer, terminal two is simply too small now from what I can see.

No more airlines will be moving to T2 and 300 gates will remain part of both, they just couldn't manage by exclusively having them for one terminal. The extra EI services should be fine provided scheduling is done well. The one major problem in T2 aside from stand issues is check in which is at capacity.

Long Term Pier F and an expanded Check in Hall are needed but its not happening anytime soon. Pier F would allow E to be fully Long Haul after the first wave or departures.

EK and EY are fine as they only use 1 stand between them.

Do British Airways use the 100 or 300 stands at the minute?

The first morning departures from 300 are all EI and 1 LH service. BA (200), Thomson (100 or 200) and Air Contractors (100 or 200) and usually the remaining flights are 300 gates.

NSAman

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No more airlines will be moving to T2 and 300 gates will remain part of both, they just couldn't manage by exclusively having them for one terminal. The extra EI services should be fine provided scheduling is done well. The one major problem in T2 aside from stand issues is check in which is at capacity.

T2 is ridiculously small in the check-in area, Aer Lingus check-in is continuously slow for the size of the hall. Queues abound even in the quiet times, September /October / February / March.... They are going to have to organise this somehow to get things moving. Thankfully as a Gold Circle member I don't have to join but I would hate to see this Hall should 35 Million start using DUB. This is one of the main problems I foresee with DUB being a major hub.

Tenger

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is not a huge amount of capacity when it comes to L/H departures between 9-12.30 during summer. Now you could squeeze some more in during the times however any new L/H services added will likely require a re working of airline schedules like happened this year to get most efficient use of capacity and possibly further increased USPC staff which will cost airlines. It puts pressure on the 300 gates which mid morning can be all full at times.

From chatting to a couple of mates who are current EI staff it seems that their 3-4 US bound departures from 1000-1300 are being delayed most days this summer due to CBP congestion.

Jamie2k9

Tenger wrote: »

From chatting to a couple of mates who are current EI staff it seems that their 3-4 US bound departures from 1000-1300 are being delayed most days this summer due to CBP congestion.

Indeed and its become much more of an issue over the last few weeks. The 11.30 ORD and 11.50 BOS are generally +20-30 minutes departing most days.

T2 is ridiculously small in the check-in area, Aer Lingus check-in is continuously slow for the size of the hall. Queues abound even in the quiet times, September /October / February / March.... They are going to have to organise this somehow to get things moving. Thankfully as a Gold Circle member I don't have to join but I would hate to see this Hall should 35 Million start using DUB. This is one of the main problems I foresee with DUB being a major hub.

From experience staffing is an issue for EI, they have around 26 desks and possibly up to 10 staffed at very busy times (times when I fly its usually less).

Another problem is EI are not encouraging online check in which they should to speed up things. This 30 hour window isn't good, 5-7 days should be allowed to select seats without paying. Splitting queues might also help as currently its not worth checking in online as it won't save a minute at the airport.

What will happen short term and rightly so is some US carriers will get the desks to ease the situation at desks 1-26 which are usually nearly all staffed in the mornings.

Jack1985

Apparently we are to expect a new destination with EI also from DUB to Halifax, using A320's. Have yet to get this confirmed, but have heard from a few colleagues it should be announced along with the other two new destinations in Florida and Texas.

billie1b

Jack1985 wrote: »

Apparently we are to expect a new destination with EI also from DUB to Halifax, using A320's. Have yet to get this confirmed, but have heard from a few colleagues it should be announced along with the other two new destinations in Florida and Texas.

Beside Leeds, Novia Sotia or Massachusetts?

Jack1985

billie1b wrote: »

Beside Leeds, Novia Sotia or Massachusetts?

Nova Scotia , pretty interesting year ahead for DUB if all goes well - At least 5 new long haul routes with 3 carriers in total if the plans materialise.

billie1b

Jack1985 wrote: »

Nova Scotia , pretty interesting year ahead for DUB if all goes well - At least 5 new long haul routes with 3 carriers in total if the plans materialise.

Yeah should be great, about time it started expanding, should have happened a long time ago

Tenger

Jack1985 wrote: »

Apparently we are to expect a new destination with EI also from DUB to Halifax, using A320's.....

I believe this rumour is about 12 months old. EI looked at this option back then. They have 2 ETOPS capable A320's.

ProfessorPlum

It was looked at last year, and for various reasons didn't go ahead, but I believe it's back on the cards again now, so hopefully they'll get their act together and make it happen this time.

murphaph

If Dublin continues to grow will the runways or lack thereof be a problem sooner rather than later or is there enough capacity with the current arrangement for say, 25% growth? What about the rest of the airside infrastructure like aprons and taxiways? When will the expansion hit the buffers due to this sort of thing?

Tenger

murphaph wrote: »

If Dublin continues to grow will the runways or lack thereof be a problem sooner rather than later or is there enough capacity with the current arrangement for say, 25% growth? What about the rest of the airside infrastructure like aprons and taxiways? When will the expansion hit the buffers due to this sort of thing?

Previously published threshold to allow a 2nd runway was 23.5m pax per year......I think that was raised to 25m per year recently.

Current footfall is approx 21-22M? Some other posters are better informed than me and will correct me soon enough.

jamo2oo9

Tenger wrote: »

Previously published threshold to allow a 2nd runway was 25m pax per year......I think that was raised to 26-27m per year recently.

Current footfall is approx 21-22M? Some other posters are better informed than me and will correct me soon enough.

It was originally 23.5m but they raised it up to 25m earlier this year.

billie1b

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

It was originally 23.5m but they raised it up to 25m earlier this year.

They'll keep putting it back, they don't wanna spend the money, worst company to run an airport, shower of incompetent fools

Irish Steve

Makes no difference who's running DAA, the real power at DUB is SIPTU, if they are happy, it happens, if they are not, it won't, regardless of the validity or otherwise of the case.

Way too many people there on both sides of the camp who still are living (very comfortably ) in the old semi state mentality, where reality is irrelevant.

billie1b

Irish Steve wrote: »

Makes no difference who's running DAA, the real power at DUB is SIPTU, if they are happy, it happens, if they are not, it won't, regardless of the validity or otherwise of the case.

Way too many people there on both sides of the camp who still are living (very comfortably ) in the old semi state mentality, where reality is irrelevant.

Ah man tell me about it, still have some fools walking around the airport with Aer Rianta high-vis jackets

Jamie2k9

billie1b wrote: »

They'll keep putting it back, they don't wanna spend the money, worst company to run an airport, shower of incompetent fools

It was not the daa, Aer Lingus and Ryanair have a big say on what the daa can charge and neither are in a hurry for a new runway. If anything the daa want to spend more over the coming years however it not going to happen.

As for capacity on the runway, still lots of room and they are working with Natts to increase capacity etc. Can't remember what changes may be needed but its nothing major.

You're all very quick to point the blame but not one of you is correct about who is to blame for the figure for expansion being upped.

Blame CAR, the Commision for Aviation Regulation, they in their determination which the DAA are appealing upped the figure to 25 million citing the need for the DAA and other stake holders to SWEAT the assets and get more out of the runway, ATC, procedures and current airport infrastructure.

The DAA are well aware of the rising cost to build the runway and kicking the can down the road will not help in this regard.

Jamie2k9

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It was not the daa, Aer Lingus and Ryanair have a big say on what the daa can charge and neither are in a hurry for a new runway. If anything the daa want to spend more over the coming years however it not going to happen.

As for capacity on the runway, still lots of room and they are working with Natts to increase capacity etc. Can't remember what changes may be needed but its nothing major.

NATTS or as it should be NATs have nothing to do with Dublin airport you're thinking of The IAA !

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

If Dublin continues to grow will the runways or lack thereof be a problem sooner rather than later or is there enough capacity with the current arrangement for say, 25% growth? What about the rest of the airside infrastructure like aprons and taxiways? When will the expansion hit the buffers due to this sort of thing?

Capacity is finite at peak hours, peak hours ATC get more than the max out of the runway. The problem is airlines want to fly mainly at the peak hours, like other airports, leaving peaks and troughs in traffic. There is plenty of capacity globally at the airport the problem is getting the airlines to fly off peak. The DAAs submission to CAR details this accurately.

To increase runway capacity additional entry points will need to be built at either end of the runway and a change to some ATC procedures.

Jamie2k9

Deleted User wrote: »

NATTS or as it should be NATs have nothing to do with Dublin airport you're thinking of The IAA !

Should of explained better but the IAA are working with Nats to allow increased departures and reduced separation time between them entering UK airspace. Combined with the works which are planned on the ground here in DUB over the next few years.

basill

There is plenty of capacity globally at the airport the problem is getting the airlines to fly off peak. The DAAs submission to CAR details this accurately.

I blame the passengers. Like surely it makes sense to get a baby up at half one in the morning for a canaries flight. Or tell a businessman that he can meet a new supplier in Paris at 3am.

I think the DAA are onto something there....but alas they also seem to have forgotten that modern aircraft can only fly subsonic and hence won't be back to Dublin airport till it's "peak" time again.

basill

basill wrote: »

I blame the passengers. Like surely it makes sense to get a baby up at half one in the morning for a canaries flight. Or tell a businessman that he can meet a new supplier in Paris at 3am.

I think the DAA are onto something there....but alas they also seem to have forgotten that modern aircraft can only fly subsonic and hence won't be back to Dublin airport till it's "peak" time again.

Off peak is NOT the middle of the night, off peak in the morning is post 0630-0830 departure rush. Dublin gets noticeably quieter for departures for a few hours until the traffic starts coming back again. Look at Westjet for example rarely delayed inbound to Dublin at 0700 and rarely delayed at 0830 when leaving again. Why ? Because it's arriving before a peak for arrivals and departing after the departure rush. This is what the DAA is trying to get the airlines to do.

http://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/2014-05-29%20DAA%20Capital%20Investment%20Proposals.pdf

Page 16 onwards

Van.Bosch

Would EI ever consider connecting pax on both sides of the Atlantic in one ticket? E.G EDI-DUB-JFK-LAS?I know 3 flights isn't very favourable in most cases but it wouldn't cost anything so what would the downside be? Might pick up some additional pax?

Graham

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Would EI ever consider connecting pax on both sides of the Atlantic in one ticket? E.G EDI-DUB-JFK-LAS?I know 3 flights isn't very favourable in most cases but it wouldn't cost anything so what would the downside be? Might pick up some additional pax?

They already do it, for example you can book a flight from new York to Amsterdam with JetBlue.

NYC - BOS JetBlue
BOS - DUB Aer Lingus
DUB - AMS Aer Lingus

Jamie2k9

Graham wrote: »

They already do it, for example you can book a flight from new York to Amsterdam with JetBlue.

NYC - BOS JetBlue
BOS - DUB Aer Lingus
DUB - AMS Aer Lingus

AFAIK Aer Lingus don't allow passengers from Europe to do it on their site.

L1011

EI don't seem interested in getting whatever revenue there is to be made by selling codeshares that others sell on their metal - e.g. the deal with KLM is one way, that Jetblue example and so on.

What non US/Canada internal flights do they actually sell on a code other than DUB-IAD and the Etihad flights?

basill

This is what the DAA is trying to get the airlines to do.

And what the airlines want to do is to maximise the use of their aircraft whilst providing a service that the customer is willing to pay for. In order to appease the DAA then a shorthaul aircraft would have to depart Dublin in the middle of the night in order to return "off peak". That departing middle of the night flight means that the transfer pax ex US would then get to sit around for 5-6 hours for a connection. The loads would suffer as a result. The productivity of the crew will also drop as they would be reporting during the WOCL and unable to fly as long.

basill

basill wrote: »

And what the airlines want to do is to maximise the use of their aircraft whilst providing a service that the customer is willing to pay for. In order to appease the DAA then a shorthaul aircraft would have to depart Dublin in the middle of the night in order to return "off peak". That departing middle of the night flight means that the transfer pax ex US would then get to sit around for 5-6 hours for a connection. The loads would suffer as a result. The productivity of the crew will also drop as they would be reporting during the WOCL and unable to fly as long.

I never said it would be easy.

You seem obsessed by getting airlines to fly in the middle of night.

Retiming flights by 15 mins either way can achieve a lot.

Any new airline like at Heathrow WILL only be offered SLOTs outside the peak especially if there is none available during the peak.

Did you read the information in the link I provided you ?

Van.Bosch

MYOB wrote: »

EI don't seem interested in getting whatever revenue there is to be made by selling codeshares that others sell on their metal - e.g. the deal with KLM is one way, that Jetblue example and so on.

What non US/Canada internal flights do they actually sell on a code other than DUB-IAD and the Etihad flights?

None and I can kind of understand that as it is purely a different airline but why offer 100's of extra routes on your site by offering 50+ JetBlue/United US Destinations to 25/30 EI European destinations where the passenger will use two EI services. I get it that in most cases there will be a one stop option but you may pick up some extra pax/revenue - i just dont see a downside for them but i'm sure there is a reason.

It's most likely limited by whatever contract they signed. I regularly read about airlines who sign code share deals with another airline but it's limited to X number of flights not the entire schedule of flights they have.

L1011

Deleted User wrote: »

It's most likely limited by whatever contract they signed. I regularly read about airlines who sign code share deals with another airline but it's limited to X number of flights not the entire schedule of flights they have.

That's often the case - e.g. KLM are generally allowed two routes only per non-alliance carrier due to their own pilots contract. But we've situations where Jetblue will willingly sell you a flight from one of their points to Boston/JFK to Dublin and beyond if you want but Aer Lingus will only sell you on to a Jetblue point from Dublin

Random example I tried there was Charlotte to Stockholm, Jetblue offer CLT-JFK-DUB-ARN but Aer Lingus will only sell CLT-JFK-DUB. Jetblue are selling far more flight combinations on EI than vice versa.

Jack1985

April start date for Halifax with EI, will be announced alongside the other two new US routes. Looks like capacity increase to YYZ to if scheduling pans out well. Wonder who the new A330 will be from!

LXFlyer

basill wrote: »

And what the airlines want to do is to maximise the use of their aircraft whilst providing a service that the customer is willing to pay for. In order to appease the DAA then a shorthaul aircraft would have to depart Dublin in the middle of the night in order to return "off peak". That departing middle of the night flight means that the transfer pax ex US would then get to sit around for 5-6 hours for a connection. The loads would suffer as a result. The productivity of the crew will also drop as they would be reporting during the WOCL and unable to fly as long.

Gosh you are obsessed with the middle of the night.

What the DAA are trying to achieve could be done by:
- Using aircraft based elsewhere to fly here arriving after the first wave is gone - already this is done by Ryanair
- Encourage foreign airlines to offer a "first wave" flight into Dublin

There is no suggestion of shorthaul flights in the middle of the night. I don't see why you keep suggesting it.

billie1b

Jack1985 wrote: »

April start date for Halifax with EI, will be announced alongside the other two new US routes. Looks like capacity increase to YYZ to if scheduling pans out well. Wonder who the new A330 will be from!

Will the Halifax be on the A320's?

Idbatterim

Would there be any prospect of flight to la via Vegas from dublin?

highlydebased

billie1b wrote: »

Will the Halifax be on the A320's?

Yes or A319's

Tenger

billie1b wrote: »

Will the Halifax be on the A320's?

I believe that EI have 2 ex-Iberia A320's which have ETOPS capability.

billie1b

Tenger wrote: »

I believe that EI have 2 ex-Iberia A320's which have ETOPS capability.

Thanks, I had a feeling it was 2 A320's with the ETOPS, just couldn't remember correctly

roundymac

Be interesting to see if there is business class on those.

Tenger

roundymac wrote: »

Be interesting to see if there is business class on those.

Can't see it happening, then you would have 2 A320 that cannot be properly integrated into the main EI shorthaul network when not going DUB-YHZ.

roundymac

roundymac wrote: »

Be interesting to see if there is business class on those.

Business class to Halifax, I wouldn't imagine there would be much business travellers on the route. They might try to pick up some cargo (fish products) to make some money.

basill

I think we need to see whether this is an "inhouse" service or ACMI for someone else before we know what configuration the aircraft will be in. My understanding is that its only for 14 weeks.