New Eircom Phone Boxes around the place?.

SpaceTime

A relative of mine in Dublin also had an attempted break in where they cut the landline! Had the phone watch alarm not had a GSM back up it wouldn't have dialled out at all!

AFAIK, they have battery backup at mobile phone sites too.

L1011

SpaceTime wrote: »

A relative of mine in Dublin also had an attempted break in where they cut the landline! Had the phone watch alarm not had a GSM back up it wouldn't have dialled out at all!

AFAIK, they have battery backup at mobile phone sites too.

Landline cutting is common on monitored alarms, however illegal GSM blockers have become the new toy... meaning that you either run the risk of that happening, or you get a monitoring service to poll the device meaning that in poor signal areas, you'll get false positives.

lucernarian

bk wrote: »

The authorities can also switch off the land line network if they so choose, no difference there.

Cell sites have battery backup (UPS) too and they normally don't go off line in case of a power outage. Generators can be brought in for long term electricity outages, the only issue is that after 24 hours peoples mobile phones would start dying. However I do know that in the cases of localised long term power outages, the emergency services have the ability to bring in generator trucks which people can charge from.

If you are truly worried, then you can get this mobile phone that is powered by a single AA battery:

https://www.expansys.ie/spareone-emergency-phone-white-900-1800mhz-240559/

Alternatively there are solar and wind up chargers for mobiles out there too.

In a very widespread emergency or a case of civil disobedience, well the emergency services will be so busy, they won't have time to take your call anyway.

BTW also most mobile phone companies have portable cell site trucks that they can move into place. They are usually used to boost cell reception at concerts, etc. but can also be put into place for emergencies.

I know that seems like a perfectly acceptable set of solutions but who in Ireland has a generator to hand, especially in their house? Maybe 2% of houses? And most people in Ireland won't even think of buying a spare phone powered by AA batteries. Also what I had envisaged in the case of long term power shortages was the day-to-day difficulties encountered. E.g. people trying to contact others to let them know they're okay or so on.

It was my understanding that many urban sites, the kind which would use 1800 MHz for smaller areas, do not have battery backup. And I did point out congestion issues earlier, something which PSTN (and to some extent VoIP) are capable of dealing with in a way that GSM especially just can't. And GSM can be jammed effortlessly by devices off Ebay.

But this is all missing the main point. Public telephones can be absolutely vital when they're needed and we should think carefully and plan for alternatives before encouraging eircom to rip them up.

SpaceTime

I remember our local radio station which is on the dance exchange as us gave away tickets and caused congestion. They mistakenly have out a local number instead of 1850 71***** which is designed to deal with busrty traffic like that.

The PSTN exchange handled it like this : You picked up the phone and dialling one digit and got a rapid busy tone ! Couldn't make or receive calls for ages. I

112 on GSM works even without a SIM btw.
Strongest signal takes the call.

I think we're overselling the PSTN as being like some kind of military grade comms system.

Some PSTN lines are even served from tiny exchanges in small street cabinets.

lucernarian

SpaceTime wrote: »

I remember our local radio station which is on the dance exchange as us gave away tickets and caused congestion. They mistakenly have out a local number instead of 1850 71***** which is designed to deal with busrty traffic like that.

The PSTN exchange handled it like this : You picked up the phone and dialling one digit and got a rapid busy tone ! Couldn't make or receive calls for ages. I

112 on GSM works even without a SIM btw.
Strongest signal takes the call.

I think we're overselling the PSTN as being like some kind of military grade comms system.

Some PSTN lines are even served from tiny exchanges in small street cabinets.

And some lines (i.e. the majority) are served by exchanges with diesel generators from ships for backup. PSTN is far superior to GSM for security and reliability, one or two examples don't change that. You can guess which of the forums of O2, Vodafone, three and eircom have the most and fewest threads about voice call problems. What's most secure, is having redundant ways to communicate. Payphones offer an alternative to having to ask someone for their mobile, assuming you have coverage and sufficient power and the network is working normally in the first place.

Hotblack Desiato

MYOB wrote: »

It is available for anyone willing to pay - it just happens to be free for Eircom BB or Meteor/eMobile billpay customers. Seems to be significantly cheaper than it used to be too:

http://www.eircom.net/wifihub/register-eircom-wifi-hotspot/noneircom/

I'm a Meteor billpay customer, didn't know that bit

But what I meant was that they don't/can't discriminate between Eircom and non-Eircom customers in using the phone element of the phone box, imho giving free wi-fi to their own customers only is abusing their dominant position.

SpaceTime wrote: »

You could replace payphones with a robust emergency phone on a pole. It would only dial 1800 numbers and 999/112

Or this

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Mobile phones are only as good as the networks that they use, the power the phone has and the capacity of the phone network to deal with lots of users simultaneously. None of which can be relied on in the same way in times of emergency, even on a very localised level (like a car accident and someone has a phone battery off etc.

Yeah and let's say all Vodafone mobiles in Dublin city centre go down for a few hours (this has happened.) Before long you'd have queues at all payphones, there's no way you can provide for a sudden surge in demand like that. It wouldn't be that much longer before all payphones with coinboxes were full / all shops in the area selling callcards had sold out.

Do they even sell callcards any more?

SpaceTime

It doesn't work like that.

Nobody knows anyone else's number anymore without their mobile phone to hand.

Many people probably don't know how to use a payphone or would be afraid they'd catch something off it!

Also the minimum fee is about €2!!

bk

A couple of points.

If you dial 112 or 999, your call automatically gets priority. If the network is congested, other non emergency calls get dropped in favour of the emergency call.

Also 112/999 numbers work on all networks even without a sim card. So if lets say three network is down, as it was a few weeks ago for 4 hours, your emergency call will be routed via one of the other networks.

When you make an emergency call via mobile, your location is automatically identified * by the cell towers you connect too (and in other countries given to the emergency services, see below for issues with data protection in Ireland!).

This can be very useful for hikers who get in trouble or someone who breaks down in the countryside, etc.

You can also register for and use SMS to contact emergency services. This is very useful for deaf people and hikers (SMS can often be transmitted in weak signal areas where a call wouldn't get through), again the location of your mobile is automatically identified.

http://www.112.ie/112_SMS_Service/142

All of these features are of distinct advantage over PSTN, which doesn't support any of these features.

People seem to be overstating the redundancy of the PSTN network.

Most exchanges have battery backups as do most cell sites, they are about equal here.

PSTN has one advantage, it can power an analogue phone even when the power goes out. However the reality is most people don't have an analogue phone any more, with most people using battery operated DECT phones that would suffer the same issue as a mobile.

Actually such DECT phones are worse then a mobile in a power outage! The DECT base station works off the house electricity. So if power goes down, you can't use the DECT phone at all, despite still having battery power in the handset itself. A mobile phone would still work in a power outage.

PSTN has many disadvantages. Yes a PSTN network can suffer from congestion and no it doesn't give priority to emergency calls. A PSTN exchange can go down for any number of technical reasons or your PSTN line can get damaged or cut, all of which leave you with no alternative means of contacting emergency services.

Again with a mobile, if one network goes down, you can still make an emergency call on the other networks.

* The accuracy of the location is dependent on the number and distance between cell sites. It is typically incredibly accurate in urban and semi urban areas, but it can be a very large area in rural mountainous areas, but still useful for rescuers to know the general area to look in.

BTW if you are talking about peoples safety, the single most important thing we could do in Ireland to save lives is to introduce location/post codes.

For the most part there is little trouble contacting emergency services in Ireland. The problem arises with accurately getting to people in trouble. The biggest issue is that while they can triangulate the location of a mobile call, under data protection legislation, the call center isn't allowed to pass the information onto the emergency services, which is utter madness!

Combine that with lack of post/location codes and Irelands terrible addressing system and you end up with situations like this:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ambulances-unable-to-use-gps-tracking-1.1438980

bk

BTW maybe a useful piece of information for people.

112 is not only the standard emergency number across the EU and EEA, but it is also the standard emergency number for all GSM phones across the world.

So even with no SIM card in place, if you dial 112 anywhere in the world on a GSM phone, you will automatically be connected to the local emergency services.

For instance in the US, if you dial 112 on your GSM phone, you will automatically be connected to 911 emergency services there.

Very useful to remember that number when travelling.

SpaceTime

The Irish PSTN actually does process 112 / 999 as emergency calls with routing priority.

If the network is congested (unlikely these days as is not as heavily used as it used to be and has vastly more capacity because of all the network upgrades) when you pick up your phone and dial, the local exchange will accept the instructions.

Alcatel exchanges will play a routing tone bebebebe type thing until they can connect the call.

Ericsson will analyse the digits as you dial them and dump anything not 112 or 999

They're not totally unsophisticated!

SpaceTime

The above doesn't mean i agree with keeping payphones lol

Del2005

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

And some lines (i.e. the majority) are served by exchanges with diesel generators from ships for backup. PSTN is far superior to GSM for security and reliability, one or two examples don't change that. You can guess which of the forums of O2, Vodafone, three and eircom have the most and fewest threads about voice call problems. What's most secure, is having redundant ways to communicate. Payphones offer an alternative to having to ask someone for their mobile, assuming you have coverage and sufficient power and the network is working normally in the first place.

It would be cheaper just to install SOS phones like they use on motorways than maintain a payphone system, it may also be easier to find the SOS phone as I've no idea where the nearest payphone is, for the rare time were there's no mobile coverage on all networks.

melekalikimaka

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i was on london last week, ran out of credit on my phone and was on way to mates, not sure where he lived, found a payphone and it saved my skin, would have been screwed otherwise, it was grim inside, and used my sleeves to lift it but it did the job

I had that exam same experience in London last weekend! (Well, it wasn't lack of credit, rather a phone that wasn't roaming).

lucernarian

bk wrote: »

A couple of points.

If you dial 112 or 999, your call automatically gets priority. If the network is congested, other non emergency calls get dropped in favour of the emergency call.

Also 112/999 numbers work on all networks even without a sim card. So if lets say three network is down, as it was a few weeks ago for 4 hours, your emergency call will be routed via one of the other networks.

When you make an emergency call via mobile, your location is automatically identified * by the cell towers you connect too (and in other countries given to the emergency services, see below for issues with data protection in Ireland!).

This can be very useful for hikers who get in trouble or someone who breaks down in the countryside, etc.

You can also register for and use SMS to contact emergency services. This is very useful for deaf people and hikers (SMS can often be transmitted in weak signal areas where a call wouldn't get through), again the location of your mobile is automatically identified.

http://www.112.ie/112_SMS_Service/142

All of these features are of distinct advantage over PSTN, which doesn't support any of these features.

People seem to be overstating the redundancy of the PSTN network.

Most exchanges have battery backups as do most cell sites, they are about equal here.

PSTN has one advantage, it can power an analogue phone even when the power goes out. However the reality is most people don't have an analogue phone any more, with most people using battery operated DECT phones that would suffer the same issue as a mobile.

Actually such DECT phones are worse then a mobile in a power outage! The DECT base station works off the house electricity. So if power goes down, you can't use the DECT phone at all, despite still having battery power in the handset itself. A mobile phone would still work in a power outage.
(snipped for length)

There are a variety of assumptions there that don't really add up.

PSTN congestion exists purely at the switching level. This can be mitigated against for emergency calls with priority routing and so on. In the case of GSM especially, the wireless broadcasting part can be simply swamped. I.e. the control channel can be overwhelmed, making the placing of 112 calls impossible to begin with. I presume if all timeslots are being used, a 112 call can boot another active call off the network however. With 3G, cell breathing in the case of very high usage can mean that mobiles in places that normally have coverage would then lose coverage entirely, making the phone redundant.

PSTN from the very outset already provides an exact location to emergency services, especially with payphones (as opposed to rural addresses etc and even then a rural road name would be typically more accurate than tower-based location finding).

The PSTN routing aspects are no more or less resillient than cell base station backhaul and so on. From having talked to an eircom engineer (not a linesman) about one exchange a few years ago, the level of redundancy that exists in main switching exchanges (the equivalent of level 4 exchanges in US parlance?) is very substantial with underground links between exchanges having redundant pathways in most circumstances. Whereas from reading planning permission documents for O2's Mt. Oriel site in Louth, I think no less than 36 sites were listed as requiring Mt. Oriel's STM backhaul to the rest of the network. Both urban within Drogheda and rural ones.

Again the point is about having an alternative. If a landline isn't working, the chances are someone will have a mobile to hand. It's more secure to have provision for both, as with the case of the phone alarm story earlier on.

Your point about other networks offering redundancy for GSM is okay with 2 caveats. Firstly the sites like Mt. Oriel above are often shared sites where a problem can easily affect all operators. Secondly, I have found newer phones to be rather poor at discriminating between or choosing among multiple available networks and it takes several minutes on my phone to go through the process of changing network while roaming for example. And if a phone gets a base station signal, it won't be clever enough to change to an alternative one where a call can be actually placed. You'd have to do a manual select in that case.

I don't accept the contention that mobile base stations and phone exchanges have comparable levels of backup power. I didn't get hard facts on it but when I asked around, I was given many examples of situations where the site had no backup power installed. And when provided by battery, it was for shorter durations than is the case with building based exchanges which is 24 hours (ignoring diesel generators for larger exchanges).

Also, while we can't account for every house in Ireland, it's very rare to see a house with no old landline phone lying around that they had before they got a cordless phone installed. Practically every attic in the country has one. DECT problem solved. And in the case of UPC, they only officially support a DECT phone with their service!

lucernarian

Del2005 wrote: »

It would be cheaper just to install SOS phones like they use on motorways than maintain a payphone system, it may also be easier to find the SOS phone as I've no idea where the nearest payphone is, for the rare time were there's no mobile coverage on all networks.

That's fine, but why rip out existing payphones instead of putting them in better locations? I also supported such an idea earlier on but maybe I forgot to say it.

Again, the "rare time" is the catch. That time is far more likely to happen in some kind of emergency or high-congestion situation.

SpaceTime

UPC officially support any analog phone. They just won't do tech support for handsets they don't sell themselves.

In exactly the same way that eircom won't support the Panasonic DECT set you bought in argos.

I agree, in very unusual circumstances a mobile network can be swamped. Its pretty rare though to be fair.

The fixed line network is not infallible either though, particularly with line breaks.

Network congestion in the eircom network is extremely unlikely to occur though. You'd need to have a very serious fault, software error or natural disaster.

Most emergency calls are about localised events though. The fixed line and mobile networks are both very reliable and unlikely to have any issues with volumes of calls.

If you've that many calls that the networks choked the wouldn't be enough people to answer them anyway.

In a really serious emergency you can also knock on a door and use a landline or call 112 / 999 from a shop or anywhere.

The issue with payphones is the cost of supporting them. If the state wants to provide emergency phones they could be replaced with something like you get at a motorway emergency phone.

The concept of having coin phones all over the place is just a waste of money and is being passed on in our line rental charges you can be sure!

Victor

SpaceTime wrote: »

Most emergency calls are about localised events though. The fixed line and mobile networks are both very reliable and unlikely to have any issues with volumes of calls.

If you've that many calls that the networks choked the wouldn't be enough people to answer them anyway.

I'm not sure if people fear many emergency calls blocking the system, more general congestion (large event where the mobile companies don't have enough support) blocking emergency calls.

SpaceTime

But at those kinds of large events - typically music festivals, there are no landlines anyway!

Big urban areas usually have loads of small cells and a lot of capacity. Only time I've ever had an issue is new years eve for a few mins and also at the Electric Picnic.

The major networks bring in portable towers though for major events.

We need to look at making their USOs include ensuring capacity at major events though.

lucernarian

SpaceTime wrote: »

UPC officially support any analog phone. They just won't do tech support for handsets they don't sell themselves.

In exactly the same way that eircom won't support the Panasonic DECT set you bought in argos.

I agree, in very unusual circumstances a mobile network can be swamped. Its pretty rare though to be fair.

The fixed line network is not infallible either though, particularly with line breaks.

Network congestion in the eircom network is extremely unlikely to occur though. You'd need to have a very serious fault, software error or natural disaster.

Most emergency calls are about localised events though. The fixed line and mobile networks are both very reliable and unlikely to have any issues with volumes of calls.

If you've that many calls that the networks choked the wouldn't be enough people to answer them anyway.

In a really serious emergency you can also knock on a door and use a landline or call 112 / 999 from a shop or anywhere.

The issue with payphones is the cost of supporting them. If the state wants to provide emergency phones they could be replaced with something like you get at a motorway emergency phone.

The concept of having coin phones all over the place is just a waste of money and is being passed on in our line rental charges you can be sure!

This is the forum which created the "Midband" forum to recognise the common effects congestion has on 3G networks in the first place! To be fair, it is a regular occurrence even to the extent of affecting voice calls and the point which I did say earlier was that it was most likely to be swamped just when people need to make a call for emergency or related reasons. Effects like cell breathing are well documented.

In the case of genera emergencies as opposed to car accidents for example, most calls will be to loved ones checking if they're okay etc. Though that is allegorical and I can't easily prove it.

Also, barring broken glass issues I can say with confidence that eircom have allocated no resources to payphone maintenance going by the various faults payphones where I lived used to have before most were removed.

A UPC csr did specifically tell me they did not "support" the analogue phone I was using when I was having a dialling problem with my phone.

I like the idea of more widespread specialised emergency phones though

SpaceTime

Upc doesn't support pulse dial. Other than that, it's a bog standard PSTN connection to the router

Albert X

Are Eircom still required by comreg to have payphones ? If not I'm surprised they haven't closed them all down.

SpaceTime

Albert X wrote: »

Are Eircom still required by comreg to have payphones ? If not I'm surprised they haven't closed them all down.

Yeah its part of their universal service obligation (USO).

corktina

I asked an old person (honest) and button B was to reclaim your cash on an unconnected call. You pressed button A to connect when the party answered.

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

I asked an old person (honest) and button B was to reclaim your cash on an unconnected call. You pressed button A to connect when the party answered.

Many public AB boxes were cash machines too! I remember violently kneeing one when it wouldn't return my money, and was rewarded by an avalanche of refund change that had been held back by a wad of toilet roll pushed up the B slot.

ardmacha

a picture, for the immature and forgetful


you prepaid for dialled (i.e. local) calls, and pressed button A when they replied, or B to get your money back if they didn't.
for operator calls you bunged in the loot, each coin made a different sound and then pressed button A.

manual areas had one of these, you just bunged in the loot when the operator asked you to.


As for the toilet roll pushed up the chute, anyone with half a clue checked for this, a bit of wire would hook same and relieve the stuffer of his or her ill gotten gains.

SpaceTime

and of course, the coins were similar size to a dinner plate and could be used as cheap substitutes for olympic medals.

Hotblack Desiato

I remember seeing A/B payphones, but the first one I ever used was the type you put the coins into a ramp on the top and they went in one by one as you ran out of time.

The A/B payphones hung on for years in pubs, hotels etc.

hfallada

I think they look horrific particularly in Dublin 2. Even in China or Philippines I didnt see a single pay phone

SpaceTime

I wish Smart Telecom would remove the ripped-apart phone boxes that they have around parts of Cork City centre. Many of them don't even have the payphones attached to the kiosk anymore - just a bunch of phone wires dangling inside (including a set right opposite the main gates of UCC in what's otherwise a very nice victorian area)

They've a few pedestals that are there for at least 15 years and are totally bashed to bits and no longer have phones. They're just eyesores and ought to have been removed long ago. If anything they're just making Smart's branding look bad! (even if it's now Digiweb)

At least eircom maintains whatever payphones they have remaining.

Some crowd in London abandoned loads of phoneboxes in the 90s too and it took the best part of 15 years to get them removed many are still standing and they're just hideous looking with bashed up old orange phones inside that haven't worked in years (if not decades).

petronius

Had an odd situation whereby my sim card wasnt working for dialing out! yet i could connect to the internet via wifi - had to call a land line
was looking for a phone box - do you think i could find one No - was wondering if there is an online map for the locations of boxes, i know if you have a phone why would you need to locate a phone box but strangely it was the case