New entrants to the public sector and the Haddington Rd Agreement?

Paarthurnax

BabyBirch wrote: »

Got an email from our shop steward today, apparently a circular on the integrated payscale is "imminent", and additional pay will only be backdated to November 1st, not July 1st.

Also, he clarified that when you reach point 3 of your post-2011 scale you only move up to point 1 of the pre-2011 scale for your grade. So you will reach the top of the scale two years after pre-2011 colleagues.

So what we can gather from that is we will be for argument sake currently level 4 and moving back to level 2 on the old scale while our colleagues who got in before the 10% cut will still be two pay grades above us with the same qualifications and experience as ourselves.

That doesn't sound like the two tier system has been resolved in my view.

I will get €1000 more for this year whereas but still €2500 less than my colleagues who started prior to the 10% cut.

BabyBirch

Paarthurnax wrote: »

So what we can gather from that is we will be for argument sake currently level 4 and moving back to level 2 on the old scale while our colleagues who got in before the 10% cut will still be two pay grades above us with the same qualifications and experience as ourselves.

That doesn't sound like the two tier system has been resolved in my view.

I will get €1000 more for this year whereas but still €2500 less than my colleagues who started prior to the 10% cut.

Yes that's exactly it, and even if you move to a new role you will always be paid less. You will only attain parity with your pre-2011 colleagues if you reach the top of your grade and never change job.

Plus I don't see why any increases will only be backdated to November 1 - they were quick enough to bring in the pay cuts and extra hours from July.

aidom

How would that work for AO?

First point on pre-2011 scale is less than third point on new entrant scale...

BabyBirch

aidom wrote: »

How would that work for AO?

First point on pre-2011 scale is less than third point on new entrant scale...

Apparently some grades will join the pre-2011 payscale after only one year, could that be it?

http://www.impact.ie/Haddington-Road-Agreement/Haddington-Road-News/Haddington-Road-News-2013/Two-tier-public-service-pay-system-to-end.htm

aidom

BabyBirch wrote: »

Apparently some grades will join the pre-2011 payscale after only one year, could that be it?

http://www.impact.ie/Haddington-Road-Agreement/Haddington-Road-News/Haddington-Road-News-2013/Two-tier-public-service-pay-system-to-end.htm

Point 2 on the New scale is still higher than than point 1 of the old AO scale. I'm on point 2 now so if I went to point 1 on the old scale then I'd be earning less.

If anything it seems that the clerical grades go after 1 year and AO wait two years.

garhjw

Does how good you are at your job have nothing to do with it?

The_Conductor

garhjw wrote: »

Does how good you are at your job have nothing to do with it?

Progression on the scale is subject to satisfactory job performance, as measured by your annual PMDS assessment. It is not an automatic entitlement. Lots of people don't get their increments. Akin to 'flexi-time' in certain offices/departments- its a privilege, not a right. Just because its there- doesn't mean you get it.

BabyBirch

aidom wrote: »

Point 2 on the New scale is still higher than than point 1 of the old AO scale. I'm on point 2 now so if I went to point 1 on the old scale then I'd be earning less.

If anything it seems that the clerical grades go after 1 year and AO wait two years.

That's how it was explained to me by the Impact rep - for me Point 1 on the post-2011 scale is higher than Point 3 on my current scale

aidom

BabyBirch wrote: »

That's how it was explained to me by the Impact rep - for me Point 1 on the post-2011 scale is higher than Point 3 on my current scale

For certain grades point 1 on the old scale is higher than point 3 on the old scale, but the AO scale jumps are quite high so point 1 on the old scale is lower than both the third and second points on the new scale.

AO Standard Scale - OLD SCALE

31,619 - 34,420 - 38,004 - 40,734 - 43,463 - 46,202 - 48,930 - 51,653 - 53,5321 - 55,4152

NRP - Administrative officer standard scale - PCC - NEW SCALE

29,922 - 32,575 - 35,970 - 38,554 - 41,140 - 43,734 - 46,319 - 48,896 - 50,6831 - 52,4652

So if I was to be moved to the old scale it would have to be on to the same point or I'd be paid less.

http://www.impact.ie/Your-Sector/Public-Sector/Civil-Service/Civil-service-salary-scales.htm

BabyBirch

aidom wrote: »

For certain grades point 1 on the old scale is higher than point 3 on the old scale, but the AO scale jumps are quite high so point 1 on the old scale is lower than both the third and second points on the new scale.

AO Standard Scale - OLD SCALE

31,619 - 34,420 - 38,004 - 40,734 - 43,463 - 46,202 - 48,930 - 51,653 - 53,5321 - 55,4152

NRP - Administrative officer standard scale - PCC - NEW SCALE

29,922 - 32,575 - 35,970 - 38,554 - 41,140 - 43,734 - 46,319 - 48,896 - 50,6831 - 52,4652

So if I was to be moved to the old scale it would have to be on to the same point or I'd be paid less.

http://www.impact.ie/Your-Sector/Public-Sector/Civil-Service/Civil-service-salary-scales.htm

I know what you mean but I don't know how the integrated scale would work in that case. I wonder does the imminent circular mean before Christmas?

Irish.sherpa

aidom wrote: »

For certain grades point 1 on the old scale is higher than point 3 on the old scale, but the AO scale jumps are quite high so point 1 on the old scale is lower than both the third and second points on the new scale.

AO Standard Scale - OLD SCALE

31,619 - 34,420 - 38,004 - 40,734 - 43,463 - 46,202 - 48,930 - 51,653 - 53,5321 - 55,4152

NRP - Administrative officer standard scale - PCC - NEW SCALE

29,922 - 32,575 - 35,970 - 38,554 - 41,140 - 43,734 - 46,319 - 48,896 - 50,6831 - 52,4652

So if I was to be moved to the old scale it would have to be on to the same point or I'd be paid less.

http://www.impact.ie/Your-Sector/Public-Sector/Civil-Service/Civil-service-salary-scales.htm

The scale you are quoting as AO Standard Scale - OLD SCALE is for recruits to Civil Service before 1995 - class B PRSI.

The Proper AO Standard Scale - OLD Scale - A Class PRSI is:
33,247 - 36,194 - 39,967 - 42,838 - 45,711 - 48,593 - 51,466 - 54,329 - 56,3141 - 58,2942

aidom

raffles wrote: »

The scale you are quoting as AO Standard Scale - OLD SCALE is for recruits to Civil Service before 1995 - class B PRSI.

The Proper AO Standard Scale - OLD Scale - A Class PRSI is:
33,247 - 36,194 - 39,967 - 42,838 - 45,711 - 48,593 - 51,466 - 54,329 - 56,3141 - 58,2942

So instead of going to 35,970 I'd go to 33,247. The third point on the new scale is still higher than than the first point on the old scale.

Rock of Gibraltar

It is likely that this will be handled in the same way as any promotion to a higher scale in the civil service, that you go onto the point immediately higher to your current point on your current scale.
So you would go to €36,194 rather than €35,970

That's how it currently works in circular 34/1977

yecood

Hi, does anybody have any up to date information on the progress of Haddington rd section 2.31, I have received a contract from the hse and I need to sign it within the next few days, iv only ever worked in the private sector so I am a new entrant.

donegal11

yecood wrote: »

Hi, does anybody have any up to date information on the progress of Haddington rd section 2.31, I have received a contract from the hse and I need to sign it within the next few days, iv only ever worked in the private sector so I am a new entrant.

Would say so, I wouldn't worry about this "new" pay scale, it's all smoke and mirrors as a new entrant you'll still be in a worse(compared to existing staff) position regarding pay the only real difference is adding more steps on the ladder and pension wise till be career average so when you do reach the top it'll have substantially less an effect then before

yecood

Thanks, just wondering does it make a difference if I am starting in the HSE on point 4 of the new entrant scale? Also the contract I got didn't mention anything about Haddington road or about moving away from the two tier salary system, the only thing they highlighted was that I will have to work 37 hrs a week.

adam88

yecood wrote: »

Thanks, just wondering does it make a difference if I am starting in the HSE on point 4 of the new entrant scale? Also the contract I got didn't mention anything about Haddington road or about moving away from the two tier salary system, the only thing they highlighted was that I will have to work 37 hrs a week.

Did it mention that you will start at point 4????? Why are you starting on point 4

yecood

Yes, I am currently on point 4 in the private sector (equivalent to point 4 on the public sector higher scale) as I have more than 4 years experience. all of this experience is in private hospitals which now makes me a new entrant to the lower scale at point 4. Hope this makes it clearer. My question is, when they get rid of the lower scale, will I be brought back to point 4 on the new scale and be earning the same as my colleagues?

The_Conductor

yecood wrote: »

Yes, I am currently on point 4 in the private sector (equivalent to point 4 on the public sector higher scale) as I have more than 4 years experience. all of this experience is in private hospitals which now makes me a new entrant to the lower scale at point 4. Hope this makes it clearer. My question is, when they get rid of the lower scale, will I be brought back to point 4 on the new scale and be earning the same as my colleagues?

Just because you have private sector experience, and are currently on the equivalent of Point 4 on the public sector payscale- does not mean you enter the public sector on Point 4 of the public sector payscale.

Its far from unusual for people to have to take a sometimes significant cut in pay back to Point 1- in lieu of getting the public sector contract- and indeed the directive is that all new entrants are to be on point 1 of the scale- aside from exceptional circumstances, and exceptional circumstances would have to be cleared with PED on a case-by-case basis.

Do not assume that you automatically get Point 4...........

adam88

The_Conductor wrote: »

Just because you have private sector experience, and are currently on the equivalent of Point 4 on the public sector payscale- does not mean you enter the public sector on Point 4 of the public sector payscale.

Its far from unusual for people to have to take a sometimes significant cut in pay back to Point 1- in lieu of getting the public sector contract- and indeed the directive is that all new entrants are to be on point 1 of the scale- aside from exceptional circumstances, and exceptional circumstances would have to be cleared with PED on a case-by-case basis.

Do not assume that you automatically get Point 4...........

What he said seems correct

alwayssideways

BabyBirch wrote: »

Got an email from our shop steward today, apparently a circular on the integrated payscale is "imminent", and additional pay will only be backdated to November 1st, not July 1st.

Also, he clarified that when you reach point 3 of your post-2011 scale you only move up to point 1 of the pre-2011 scale for your grade. So you will reach the top of the scale two years after pre-2011 colleagues.

Any update on this? Still haven't received a circular.

BabyBirch

alwayssideways wrote: »

Any update on this? Still haven't received a circular.

No, nothing since. I'm in the education sector, shop steward said that our HR department are waiting for information on the new scales from the HEA? If I hear anything else I'll post.

noodler

I'd have thought it would work like this:


Old Scale: 30, 35, 40, 45, 50

New Scale: 25, 30, 35, 40, 55

When someone on the new scale reaches point 3 on the new scale (i.e. 35k)...they will instead get point 3 on the original scale (40k) and be on the old scale forever more.

Its the only way that provides a tangible benefit or an end to so-called "two-tier" pay that the unions keep mentioning.

Dingle_berry

noodler wrote: »

I'd have thought it would work like this:


Old Scale: 30, 35, 40, 45, 50

New Scale: 25, 30, 35, 40, 55

When someone on the new scale reaches point 3 on the new scale (i.e. 35k)...they will instead get point 3 on the original scale (40k) and be on the old scale forever more.

Its the only way that provides a tangible benefit or an end to so-called "two-tier" pay that the unions keep mentioning.

That would be fair. But instead (my understanding of) the agreement is that the new new scale will be something like:

25 27.5 30 35 40 45 50

With non-new entrants not being affected but those on the "new entrant" scale always being a few points below what their colleagues were at the equivalent level of experience ie someone who started in 2010 will be on 50 after 4 years service (in 2014) but someone who started in 2011 won't reach 50 until they have six years of service (2017).
So no, the new entrant scale isn't really gone it's just been mapped on to the old scale.

noodler

Dingle_berry wrote: »

That would be fair. But instead (my understanding of) the agreement is that the new new scale will be something like:

25 27.5 30 35 40 45 50

With non-new entrants not being affected but those on the "new entrant" scale always being a few points below what their colleagues were at the equivalent level of experience ie someone who started in 2010 will be on 50 after 4 years service (in 2014) but someone who started in 2011 won't reach 50 until they have six years of service (2017).
So no, the new entrant scale isn't really gone it's just been mapped on to the old scale.

Im having a slow day but how does your example benefit new entrants compared to the current new scale setup?

Dingle_berry

noodler wrote: »

Im having a slow day but how does your example benefit new entrants compared to the current new scale setup?

I'm not sure myself! Another example;

New entrant: 30 - 31 - 32 - 34 - 36 - 37 - 38 - 40 - 41 - 42 - 44 - 45 - 46
Old entrant: 34 - 35 - 36 - 38 - 40 - 41 - 43 - 44 - 46 - 47 - 49 - 50 - 52
What I think new proposed scale will be:
32 - 33 - 34 - 35 - 36 - 38 - 40 - 41 - 43 - 44 - 46 - 47 - 49 - 50 - 52

Person A started in 2010 and will be earn 40 after 4 years (2014).
Person B started 2011 and will earn 40 after 6 years (2017). Without this it would be 7 years before a new entrant earned 40. Also a new entrant would never have earned 47-52 no mater how long they served.

Philope

The days of the public sector being a decent employer and steady career are over. A new entrant would be mad to join a dying sector. You have to move with the times.

spank_inferno

Philope wrote: »

The days of the public sector being a decent employer and steady career are over. A new entrant would be mad to join a dying sector. You have to move with the times.

Unless we turn into Somalia or South Sudan there will always be a 'state' so it ain't going anywhere.

Though they may not be the cuddliest of employer, renumeration is still pretty good as the above scales & starting rates testify.

Philope

spank_inferno wrote: »

Unless we turn into Somalia or South Sudan there will always be a 'state' so it ain't going anywhere.

I never said it was, but it's a stagnant sector, the future, for the next generation or so at least, is going to be the private sector.

Dingle_berry

Philope wrote: »

I never said it was, but it's a stagnant sector, the future, for the next generation or so at least, is going to be the private sector.

Not for the sector that I'm in. Or for any other sector where providing the service as required would be uneconomical.