New entrants to the public sector and the Haddington Rd Agreement?

Philope

Dingle_berry wrote: »

Not for the sector that I'm in. Or for any other sector where providing the service as required would be uneconomical.

What sector are you in ?

BabyBirch

noodler wrote: »

Im having a slow day but how does your example benefit new entrants compared to the current new scale setup?

The benefit is that eventually you reach the top of the same scale as your colleagues, whereas before you would reach the top of the new entrant scale and still be on 10% less.

But if you move to a different job you will start again, always 10% below the pre-2011 entrants.

Totally hyped up deal by the unions, there's no way I'm staying in the public sector long enough to "benefit" from it.

noodler

Dingle_berry wrote: »

I'm not sure myself! Another example;

New entrant: 30 - 31 - 32 - 34 - 36 - 37 - 38 - 40 - 41 - 42 - 44 - 45 - 46
Old entrant: 34 - 35 - 36 - 38 - 40 - 41 - 43 - 44 - 46 - 47 - 49 - 50 - 52
What I think new proposed scale will be:
32 - 33 - 34 - 35 - 36 - 38 - 40 - 41 - 43 - 44 - 46 - 47 - 49 - 50 - 52

Person A started in 2010 and will be earn 40 after 4 years (2014).
Person B started 2011 and will earn 40 after 6 years (2017). Without this it would be 7 years before a new entrant earned 40. Also a new entrant would never have earned 47-52 no mater how long they served.

BabyBirch wrote: »

The benefit is that eventually you reach the top of the same scale as your colleagues, whereas before you would reach the top of the new entrant scale and still be on 10% less.

But if you move to a different job you will start again, always 10% below the pre-2011 entrants.

Totally hyped up deal by the unions, there's no way I'm staying in the public sector long enough to "benefit" from it.

Unless you can say "I am a new entrant and after X number of years here I will be on the same scale an old entant was on after the same X number of years" then the whole thing will be a cop-out.

Looking forward to seeing what it proposed.

Dingle_berry

noodler wrote: »

Unless you can say "I am a new entrant and after X number of years here I will be on the same scale an old entant was on after the same X number of years" then the whole thing will be a cop-out.

Looking forward to seeing what it proposed.

You do catch up to the old entrants. At the top of the scale.
I suppose it's good for new entrants because they will earn more than they would have on the new entrant scale. Good for government because only those who stay on and reach the upper end will get this benefit. Also leaves them plenty of time to chip away at the top of the payscales somehow.
If you're not happy with the agreement, make your voice heard with your union. Too many new entrants don't bother engaging with their unions so the unions don't know what they want.

BabyBirch wrote: »

But if you move to a different job you will start again, always 10% below the pre-2011 entrants.

Your experience is transferable. So if you move from cork to Dublin to do the same job you don't drop to the start of the scale, you continue. If you get a promotion or a new role then you are a new entrant. But if you are promoted and the start of the promoted grades salary scale is below your current salary you move across to the closest point of the promoted scale rounding up. You don't get punished for taking a promotion.
They are the rules for our sector, I've heard of HR trying to get people to accept less but those are the rules.

Paarthurnax

DPE071/12/13
30 January 2014
Circular 2/2014: Implementation of Clause 2.31 of the Haddington Road
Agreement - revised pay scales and allowances for persons recruited to certain
direct entry grades
Dear Secretary General,
1. I am directed by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
to refer to Clause 2.31 of the Haddington Road Agreement (HRA) which addresses
the remuneration of new entrant grades who entered the Public Service on or after 1
January 2011 and were subject to Circular 18/2010 dated 23 December 2010.
Revised Pay Rates under Clause 2.31 of the HRA
2. This Circular sets out (at Appendix 1) the revised pay rates to apply to civil service
direct entry grades which were previously adjusted under Circular 18/2010 dated 23
December 2010. The revised pay rates will apply with effect from 1 November 2013.
2.1 A further notification will issue in respect of non-general civil service grades.
2.2 Circular 18/2010 dated 23 December 2010 is withdrawn.
Application to Civil Service
3. New entrants to civil service recruitment grades, who were subject to the 2011
reduced pay rates will be assimilated to the new/revised incremental payscale as and
from 1 November 2013.
3.1 The revised incremental pay scale will apply to all civil servants including new
recruits to the civil service. The new pay scale will not however vary or alter the pay
rates of civil servants appointed on or before 31 December 2010 or persons appointed
after this date who were not subject to the terms of Circular 18/2010.
Application to Public Service Bodies
4. Clause 2.31 of the HRA also applies, with effect from 1 November 2013, to
recruitment grades in the public service which were subject to Circular 18/2010.
2
Implementation in respect of public service bodies is a matter for individual
Departments. A guide setting out the methodology to be applied in determining the
revised incremental pay scales is available at http://www.per.gov.ie. It should be
noted, that indent 7 of the Guide provides for the application of a higher incremental
point, in certain circumstances e.g. Administrative Officer and Executive Officer
grade.
Allowances
5. Circular 18/20 dated 23 December 2010 also provided for a reduction of 10% in
the fixed term allowances of persons recruited to certain direct entry NRP adjusted
grades. This reduction in allowances will cease as and from 1 November 2013.
Overtime
6. With effect from 1 November 2013 overtime for those on salaries of up to €35,000
(inclusive of allowances in the nature of pay) will, be paid as follows:
6.1 Grades on the first and second incremental point will be paid overtime at the first
point of the appropriate merged scale at time and a half.
6.2 Grades on or above the third incremental point will be paid overtime at the third
incremental point of the appropriate merged scale at time and a half.
This formula will not apply to any scale where this provision would result in
overtime being paid at less than time at any point of the scale. Arrangements for those
earning in excess of €35,000 (inclusive of allowances in the nature of pay) are as set
out in clause 2.13 (b) of the Haddington Road Agreement.
State Industrial Grades
7. Pending the issue of separate instructions by this Department in respect of grades
whose pay and conditions are appropriate for consideration by the Joint Industrial
Council for State Industrial Employees, Departments/Offices should consult directly
with this Department on the pay rates to apply to persons appointed to such categories
of employment.
General
8. Individual queries in relation to pay should be raised in the first place
with an officer’s Personnel Unit or where appropriate PeoplePoint.
8.1 Any difficulties that may arise from the application of this circular should be
raised, by e-mail in the first instance, with this Department (email address:
3
payscales@per.gov.ie). Where this is not possible, telephone queries may be raised
with this Department (Tel. (01) 6045796 or 6045409. Superannuation queries should
be directed to Tel. (01) 6045405.
Copies of Circular
8. This Circular is available on the Department’s web-site at
http://www.per.gov.ie.
Yours sincerely
________________
Oonagh Buckley
Assistant Secretary
4
APPENDIX 1 to Circular 2/2014
Pay scales are revised for established officers appointed on or after the 6th April 1995
paying the Class A rate of PRSI contribution and making an employee contribution in
respect of personal superannuation benefits
ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER STANDARD SCALE - PPC
€29,922 €32,575 €33,247 €36,194 €39,967 €42,838 €45,711 €48,593
€51,466 €54,329 €56,314¹ €58,294²
EXECUTIVE OFFICER STANDARD SCALE - PPC
€27,464 €29,418 €30,516 €32,687 €34,360 €35,977 €37,588 €39,166
€40,760 €42,311 €43,909 €44,967 €46,473¹ €47,975 ²
CLERICAL OFFICER - PPC
€21,345 €22,805 €23,177 €24,255 €25,339 €26,420 €27,502 €28,583
€29,635 €30,688 €31,743 €32,975 €33,840 €35,471 €36,753¹ €37341²
SERVICE OFFICER - PPC
€383.46 €407.44 €416.49 €435.63 €452.71 €469.80 €481.96 €496.55
€521.52 €539.36¹ €559.23²
SERVICE ATTENDANT - PPC
€378.02 €394.29 €416.49 €423.54 €438.10 €455.18 €477.08 €494.13
€515.05 €532.14¹ €552.08²
CLEANER - PPC
€365.31 €390.57 €397.64 €414.15 €433.97 €446.24¹ €465.35 ²
_______________________________________
1. After 3 years satisfactory service at the maximum
2. After 6 years satisfactory service at the maximum

Paarthurnax

I receieved this as a pdf in an email from Siptu yesterday. Still none the wiser really.

noodler

What is the sionificance of the scales published in that circular? They don't seem any different to the current ones for new entrants anyway.


http://impacttradeunion.newsweaver.com/newsletter/1t6psaf3fqf?rss=true


Impact report on it here.

They don't give a numercial example but it still seems to me that its like this:

Old Scale: 33, 36, 39, 42, 45, 48

New Scale (new entrants): 30, 33, 36, 39, 42, 45

As a new entrant, after year 1(30) and year 2 (33), you will then leap to 39? and be on the old scale from then on.

Probably wishful thinking.

BabyBirch

noodler wrote: »

What is the sionificance of the scales published in that circular? They don't seem any different to the current ones for new entrants anyway.


http://impacttradeunion.newsweaver.com/newsletter/1t6psaf3fqf?rss=true


Impact report on it here.

They don't give a numercial example but it still seems to me that its like this:

Old Scale: 33, 36, 39, 42, 45, 48

New Scale (new entrants): 30, 33, 36, 39, 42, 45

As a new entrant, after year 1(30) and year 2 (33), you will then leap to 39? and be on the old scale from then on.

Probably wishful thinking.

No, you've skipped 36 - the new scale is the same as the pre-2011 scale with 1-2 extra points added to it for new entrants.

BabyBirch

Paarthurnax wrote: »

I receieved this as a pdf in an email from Siptu yesterday. Still none the wiser really.

Me too. Still waiting for HEA to publish their revised scales. They just have to amalgamate one point on the pre and post 2011 scales, I don't see how it takes this long :rolleyes:

noodler

BabyBirch wrote: »

No, you've skipped 36 - the new scale is the same as the pre-2011 scale with 1-2 extra points added to it for new entrants.

No, what I did was assume that instead of going to point 3 on the new entrant scale, you would go to point 3 on the old entrant scale (which is 39).

Its only my reading of what the Impact link says - have you seen any new scales btw? If its the same as the pre-2011 scale as you say/suggest then I imagine most new entrants would be satisfied.

BabyBirch

noodler wrote: »

No, what I did was assume that instead of going to point 3 on the new entrant scale, you would go to point 3 on the old entrant scale (which is 39).

Its only my reading of what the Impact link says - have you seen any new scales btw? If its the same as the pre-2011 scale as you say/suggest then I imagine most new entrants would be satisfied.

Unfortunately there's no skipping on the new scale - you just work your way up it, starting with one or two extra points that are lower than the pre-2011 scale.

The only difference is if you're already a post-2011 person who's on the post-2011 scale and have worked your way past point 1 and 2 of the new scale. I'm about to move to point 4 of the post 2011 entrant scale, and I assume I will therefore be on the equivalent of point 2 of the pre-2011 scale once the two scales are amalgamated.

Sorry if I'm not explaining myself well!

Also, as a new entrant I am not at all satisfied - I have to work for two years more than my colleague to end up on the same salary point, despite the fact that I have more experience than her - just because my experience was in the private sector and not the public sector.

noodler

BabyBirch wrote: »

Unfortunately there's no skipping on the new scale - you just work your way up it, starting with one or two extra points that are lower than the pre-2011 scale.

The only difference is if you're already a post-2011 person who's on the post-2011 scale and have worked your way past point 1 and 2 of the new scale. I'm about to move to point 4 of the post 2011 entrant scale, and I assume I will therefore be on the equivalent of point 2 of the pre-2011 scale once the two scales are amalgamated.

Sorry if I'm not explaining myself well!

Also, as a new entrant I am not at all satisfied - I have to work for two years more than my colleague to end up on the same salary point, despite the fact that I have more experience than her - just because my experience was in the private sector and not the public sector.

I am starting to feel a bit stupid here because I am not 100% getting what you are saying!

Could you do a numerical example of how you think (know??) it is going to work once a new entrant gets to the third point on the ne entrant scales?

BabyBirch

noodler wrote: »

I am starting to feel a bit stupid here because I am not 100% getting what you are saying!

Could you do a numerical example of how you think (know??) it is going to work once a new entrant gets to the third point on the ne entrant scales?

Yes! That would make it easier

The pre-2011 scale is: 37k, 38k, 40k, 41k, 42k

The post-2011 scale is: 33k, 34k, 36k, 37k, 38k.

I am on point 3 of post 2011, 36k. My colleague is on point 3 of pre-2011, 40k.

I haven't seen the new amalgamated scale, but it will have two additional, lower points than the pre-2011. It will therefore be a longer scale, with more points, but at the end of it I will have reached the top point (42k) whereas before, a new entrant could only reach 38k at the top of their scale.

I imagine the new scale will be something like: 34k, 36k, 37k, 38k, 40k, 41k, 42k.

As I am on point 3 on point three of my current scale, when I reach point 4 I will move to 37k on the new scale, and continue up until I reach the same salary as my colleague on 42k (but two years after her).

The part that is taking time to implement is the amalgamation of the points where the new scale joins the old - in my example I have rounded the numbers but in the old scales there aren't even jumps of 10k.

Does that make sense?
That is my interpretation of the situation anyway!

noodler

BabyBirch wrote: »

Yes! That would make it easier

The pre-2011 scale is: 37k, 38k, 40k, 41k, 42k

The post-2011 scale is: 33k, 34k, 36k, 37k, 38k.

I am on point 3 of post 2011, 36k. My colleague is on point 3 of pre-2011, 40k.

I haven't seen the new amalgamated scale, but it will have two additional, lower points than the pre-2011. It will therefore be a longer scale, with more points, but at the end of it I will have reached the top point (42k) whereas before, a new entrant could only reach 38k at the top of their scale.

I imagine the new scale will be something like: 34k, 36k, 37k, 38k, 40k, 41k, 42k.

As I am on point 3 on point three of my current scale, when I reach point 4 I will move to 37k on the new scale, and continue up until I reach the same salary as my colleague on 42k (but two years after her).

The part that is taking time to implement is the amalgamation of the points where the new scale joins the old - in my example I have rounded the numbers but in the old scales there aren't even jumps of 10k.

Does that make sense?
That is my interpretation of the situation anyway!

Thanks for that.

Its a bit disappointing, I assumed that you would be able to say that in your third year as a new entrant you would be earning the same amount as an old entrant was earning in their third year.

But it apepars there will still be a pretty sizeable gap between someone who started in 2010 compared to thos who started after (after an identical number of years worked by both).

BabyBirch

noodler wrote: »

Thanks for that.

Its a bit disappointing, I assumed that you would be able to say that in your third year as a new entrant you would be earning the same amount as an old entrant was earning in their third year.

But it apepars there will still be a pretty sizeable gap between someone who started in 2010 compared to thos who started after (after an identical number of years worked by both).

That's what I thought initially! But no, there is no immediate benefit to us newbies (unless I am completely mistaken)

Paarthurnax

My group qualified as Psych Nurses on Sept 2009 and took part in interviews posts in the HSE in Oct,Nov of 2009. Eventually some post were filled late 2010 and some early 2011 and then in dribs and drabs up until present. A a result a,b,c are earning 100% whereas d,e and f earn 90% with exact same qualifications but were hired as little a 3 months later for the same post.

I have had discussions with colleagues who are in the same boat, 90%ers, the general consensus among us is that Haddington 2.31 does talk about removing the two tier system but whats being offered does not do that, and therefore same discrimination exists.
The two tier pay remains unless the same pay and conditions are equal for those with the same qualifications and years experience who's job is identical

BabyBirch

Paarthurnax wrote: »

My group qualified as Psych Nurses on Sept 2009 and took part in interviews posts in the HSE in Oct,Nov of 2009. Eventually some post were filled late 2010 and some early 2011 and then in dribs and drabs up until present. A a result a,b,c are earning 100% whereas d,e and f earn 90% with exact same qualifications but were hired as little a 3 months later for the same post.

I have had discussions with colleagues who are in the same boat, 90%ers, the general consensus among us is that Haddington 2.31 does talk about removing the two tier system but whats being offered does not do that, and therefore same discrimination exists.
The two tier pay remains unless the same pay and conditions are equal for those with the same qualifications and years experience who's job is identical

Agreed. Plus I work in research where people naturally move grades (eg. research assistant>post doc>research fellow) and I will always start off being paid less than my colleagues throughout my career. I brought this up with Impact and they could not care less.

donegal11

BabyBirch wrote: »

Agreed. Plus I work in research where people naturally move grades (eg. research assistant>post doc>research fellow) and I will always start off being paid less than my colleagues throughout my career. I brought this up with Impact and they could not care less.

I'm all right Jack

Paarthurnax

BabyBirch wrote: »

Agreed. Plus I work in research where people naturally move grades (eg. research assistant>post doc>research fellow) and I will always start off being paid less than my colleagues throughout my career. I brought this up with Impact and they could not care less.

Yeah it really frustrating. It is a form of discrimination and I thought that would have been address properly, if it was going to be done at all. I love to get some impartial legal advise (Non Union) on this.

Why cant they even give us our increments every 8 months so by the time we hit top of our increment both would be on the same scale.

Paarthurnax

I got these figures from HSE via SIPTU for all HSE grades as per HSE Circular 3/2014 7th April 2014.
From my reading of this very long winded jargon filled document, I don't see any mention of of dropping back 2 increment places, ( In my case Current Increment 4 to Increment 2 on the new merged scale)
Incremental Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
New Entrants 01/01/11 27,843 29,203 30,336 31,402 32,516 33,382 34,382 35,555 36,760 38,479
Old Pay scale 01/09/08 32,634 34,268 35,629 36,910 38,247 39,228 40,424 41,897 43,346 45,410
Old Pay scale 01/01/10 30,937 32,448 33,707 34,891 36,129 37,091 38,142 39,505 40,845 42,754
New Merged 01/11/13 27,843 29,770 30,937 32,448 33,707 34,891 36,129 37,091 38,142 39,505 40,845 42,754





I am currently Increment 4 on the 01/01/11 payscale 31,402 the equivalent on the new Merged Scale would be 32,448 which would help but if I drop back to Increment 2 its 29,770 so I presume I change to level 4 on the merged scale.

If anyone want the HSE circular or Pay scales for entire HSE send me a pm.

BassettCrazy

I am new to the hse I just started this month and didnt know about these merged payscales. The contract I was given has the new entrant 2011 payscale. But now i see there is a new november 2013 consolidated payscale on the hse website. Who should I contact about this?

Slydice

BassettCrazy wrote: »

I am new to the hse I just started this month and didnt know about these merged payscales. The contract I was given has the new entrant 2011 payscale. But now i see there is a new november 2013 consolidated payscale on the hse website. Who should I contact about this?

I'm not sure. I'd say it's probably up in the air a bit. Would PublicJobs.ie be a safer bet than asking your own HR or Finanace sections maybe?

Paarthurnax

BassettCrazy wrote: »

I am new to the hse I just started this month and didnt know about these merged payscales. The contract I was given has the new entrant 2011 payscale. But now i see there is a new november 2013 consolidated payscale on the hse website. Who should I contact about this?

You will move to the consolidate scale an it will be back dated from the day you started. What increment you are going to be on in the new scale will depend on your current scale. Contact your union if you are part of one, I dont think they know much more than ourselves to be honest.

Dingle_berry

Paarthurnax wrote: »

You will move to the consolidate scale an it will be back dated from the day you started. What increment you are going to be on in the new scale will depend on your current scale. Contact your union if you are part of one, I dont think they know much more than ourselves to be honest.

Backdating is only from the date in November 2013 when the agreement was made is what we're being told

alwayssideways

BassettCrazy wrote: »

I am new to the hse I just started this month and didnt know about these merged payscales. The contract I was given has the new entrant 2011 payscale. But now i see there is a new november 2013 consolidated payscale on the hse website. Who should I contact about this?

Dingle_berry wrote: »

Backdating is only from the date in November 2013 when the agreement was made is what we're being told

Yes, but in this case the poster started post November 2013. Therefore will receive backdated pay from the day he/she started.

Any indication on when this will actually happen?

Paarthurnax

INMO website explains the consolidated pay scale and shows that if you are on say increment scale 5 at present you will be level 5 on the new consolidated scale. Not going back 2 points on the new scale as first thought.
http://www.inmo.ie/7553

Dingle_berry

Paarthurnax wrote: »

INMO website explains the consolidated pay scale and shows that if you are on say increment scale 5 at present you will be level 5 on the new consolidated scale. Not going back 2 points on the new scale as first thought.
http://www.inmo.ie/7553

I don't see where it specifically says that, I only see the small bit about being assimilated onto the consolidated scale? But using those payscales as an example that is what I would expect; no pay cuts.
I don't have the pay scales to hand but I think the problem in my sector is that the consolidated point 1 is the closest point to new entrant point 2 or 3. So someone with 2 or 3 years service will get a slight increase etc, but their experience (the basis for increments?) will be "reset" to point 1, the same as a complete new entrant.

Paarthurnax

Dingle_berry wrote: »

So someone with 2 or 3 years service will get a slight increase etc, but their experience (the basis for increments?) will be "reset" to point 1, the same as a complete new entrant.

The example from the table Nurse X at currently on Increment 4 gets paid €31199 will now get €31710 up €511 per annum, but also has an extra 2 increment years 11 and 12 respectively. Unless it is sector specific you are not going to lose your current incremental scale.

noodler

Paarthurnax wrote: »

The example from the table Nurse X at currently on Increment 4 gets paid €31199 will now get €31710 up €511 per annum, but also has an extra 2 increment years 11 and 12 respectively. Unless it is sector specific you are not going to lose your current incremental scale.

As a new entrant, I have only just worked out that these new combined scales are clearly worse for me then the new entrant scales of post-2011.

The thrid point on the combined scales (33) is now much lower than the third point of the new entrant scales (35.5)

Absolutely sick tbh - I can't believe this whole "abolition of two-tier payscales" has actually made things worse for a new subset of new entrants - those of the post-2014 era.

The_Conductor

What happens in practice, is you are moved onto the point closest to that which you were previously on, without a paycut occurring, so it would normally involve a small gross increase in pay. It would be highly unusual to be migrated to a lower point on the salary scale, increment point, notwithstanding.

Wait until its explained properly- the details have not been hammered out yet.