New entrants to the public sector and the Haddington Rd Agreement?

noodler

The_Conductor wrote: »

What happens in practice, is you are moved onto the point closest to that which you were previously on, without a paycut occurring, so it would normally involve a small gross increase in pay. It would be highly unusual to be migrated to a lower point on the salary scale, increment point, notwithstanding.

Wait until its explained properly- the details have not been hammered out yet.

Old Scales €33,247 €36,194 €39,967 €42,838 €45,711 €48,593
New Entrants €29,922 €32,575 €35,970 €38,554 €41,140 €43,734

Combined Scales €29,922 €32,575 €33,247 €36,194 €39,967 €42,838





As far as I can see, this is where it leaves my batch of new recruits.

In year 2 we will go to €32,575 but only to €33,247 in year 3.

However in the New entrant scales, you went to €32,575 in year 2 (same) but then up to €35,970!

Really pissed off about it to be honest - theres clearly not enough new entrants affected by this because I don't think its been mentioned anywhere.

Dingle_berry

noodler wrote: »

Really pissed off about it to be honest - theres clearly not enough new entrants affected by this because I don't think its been mentioned anywhere.

This is a real problem. In my own sector the union is dominated by higher grades and union meetings are ~99% higher grades. When new entrants are mentioned they plead ignorance - but they voted in favour of these arrangements!
New entrants need to join their unions and get onto their executive committees. It's the only way crap like this will stop.

Paarthurnax

Dingle_berry wrote: »

This is a real problem. In my own sector the union is dominated by higher grades and union meetings are ~99% higher grades. When new entrants are mentioned they plead ignorance - but they voted in favour of these arrangements!
New entrants need to join their unions and get onto their executive committees. It's the only way crap like this will stop.

Agree with you completely on this one, but by the time this happens there will be a whole new cohort to piss down on, and so the cycle continues!

Paarthurnax

noodler wrote: »

theres clearly not enough new entrants affected by this because I don't think its been mentioned anywhere.

Its always those at the bottom that get shafted. You see what they did with the nurses, they have now stopped recruiting new entrants and are using new grads on 85% with two year contracts which is which is actually 85% of the 90% (2011 scale) .

chris_john_lane

I'm due to start on the public sector shortly. I got the contract today.. It says I will be paid on the Social Care Worker scale about 29000-57000...it says new entrants will be paid point one of the scale. I'm currently working for a charity based company funded by the hse. Am I a new entrant?

chris_john_lane

Is this for Social Care Workers?

noodler wrote: »

Old Scales €33,247 €36,194 €39,967 €42,838 €45,711 €48,593
New Entrants €29,922 €32,575 €35,970 €38,554 €41,140 €43,734

Combined Scales €29,922 €32,575 €33,247 €36,194 €39,967 €42,838







As far as I can see, this is where it leaves my batch of new recruits.

In year 2 we will go to €32,575 but only to €33,247 in year 3.

However in the New entrant scales, you went to €32,575 in year 2 (same) but then up to €35,970!

Really pissed off about it to be honest - theres clearly not enough new entrants affected by this because I don't think its been mentioned anywhere.

The_Conductor

chris_john_lane wrote: »

I'm due to start on the public sector shortly. I got the contract today.. It says I will be paid on the Social Care Worker scale about 29000-57000...it says new entrants will be paid point one of the scale. I'm currently working for a charity based company funded by the hse. Am I a new entrant?

Unless you are a public sector worker- regardless of the fact that the company you are working for is a HSE funded charity- you are a new entrant. Occasionally cases are made for recognition of prior experience, if the employer is unable to recruit another candidate at the minimum point of the scale- however, its exceptional in nature- and has to be sanctioned on a case-by-case basis.

chris_john_lane

Seems ridiculous to me. I have 7 years experience and I'll be paid the same as someone straight out of college with no experience?

The_Conductor wrote: »

Unless you are a public sector worker- regardless of the fact that the company you are working for is a HSE funded charity- you are a new entrant. Occasionally cases are made for recognition of prior experience, if the employer is unable to recruit another candidate at the minimum point of the scale- however, its exceptional in nature- and has to be sanctioned on a case-by-case basis.

The_Conductor

chris_john_lane wrote: »

Seems ridiculous to me. I have 7 years experience and I'll be paid the same as someone straight out of college with no experience?

Join the club- I joined the civil service @ age 28- with relevant qualifications and experience- and had people joining on the same day, 10 years younger than me, who had no qualifications or experience, on exactly the same salary.

Its just how the public sector works. You either accept it- or you look elsewhere. I was willing to take the hit- in exchange for the pension, family friendly policies and flexitime- but it cost me- my job before I joined the civil service paid 16k more than my civil service post did.

Its a case of swings and roundabouts- and unless you're willing to accept that the public sector job has benefits other than purely financial benefits, then you're better off in the private sector.......

chris_john_lane

The thing is as a Social Care Worker experience is vital so I'll more than likely be working with people fresh out of college. Someone in the public sector already will more than likely be taking a pay cut to take this position I've been offered.

Pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys

The_Conductor wrote: »

Join the club- I joined the civil service @ age 28- with relevant qualifications and experience- and had people joining on the same day, 10 years younger than me, who had no qualifications or experience, on exactly the same salary.

Its just how the public sector works. You either accept it- or you look elsewhere. I was willing to take the hit- in exchange for the pension, family friendly policies and flexitime- but it cost me- my job before I joined the civil service paid 16k more than my civil service post did.

Its a case of swings and roundabouts- and unless you're willing to accept that the public sector job has benefits other than purely financial benefits, then you're better off in the private sector.......

The_Conductor

chris_john_lane wrote: »

The thing is as a Social Care Worker experience is vital so I'll more than likely be working with people fresh out of college. Someone in the public sector already will more than likely be taking a pay cut to take this position I've been offered.

Pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys

True- but then- most of us certainly don't work in the public service for the money........ The media would have you believe we're all money grabbing yokels- which couldn't be further from the truth.......

chris_john_lane

I'm certainly not in it for the money but I do want all my hard work over the years to be taken into account. I won't be accepting point 1 of the scale. Do you think it's even worth trying to negotiate it?

The_Conductor wrote: »

True- but then- most of us certainly don't work in the public service for the money........ The media would have you believe we're all money grabbing yokels- which couldn't be further from the truth.......

The_Conductor

chris_john_lane wrote: »

I'm certainly not in it for the money but I do want all my hard work over the years to be taken into account. I won't be accepting point 1 of the scale. Do you think it's even worth trying to negotiate it?

Its worth arguing the point- there is no guarantee you'll get anywhere- but I would certainly accept the job offer, but dispute starting on Point 1 of the salary scale. I know of people who have successfully argued the point (mostly in research roles)- and I know it does happen- but its rare........

eclectichoney

I wasn't even a new entrant in the public service - I had worked there in an identical role (same job title) since mid 2010 - however when I moved to the exact same role/grade/title in another public service organisation I had to restart back at the start of the scale - which is even more unfair than the situation for new entrants to be honest. It's a very unfortunately situation and the unions don't seem to care.

adam88

eclectichoney wrote: »

I wasn't even a new entrant in the public service - I had worked there in an identical role (same job title) since mid 2010 - however when I moved to the exact same role/grade/title in another public service organisation I had to restart back at the start of the scale - which is even more unfair than the situation for new entrants to be honest. It's a very unfortunately situation and the unions don't seem to care.

Id look into that if I was you

chris_john_lane

I think I will accept the job and try argue my case based on my experience

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its worth arguing the point- there is no guarantee you'll get anywhere- but I would certainly accept the job offer, but dispute starting on Point 1 of the salary scale. I know of people who have successfully argued the point (mostly in research roles)- and I know it does happen- but its rare........

The_Conductor

adam88 wrote: »

Id look into that if I was you

Big time. Sounds like someone in Personnel/HR screwed up.

Pre-existing public sector employees move posts to the point closest to their current salary point- if that point happens to be the lowest point on the salary scale on which they are moving to- so be it- you do not get to go to point 2 on a scale because you have 2 years service- you go to the nearest salary point on the scale. You are not expected to take a salary cut- but nor are you expected to benefit unduly from a move/promotion........

So- it depends on whether the lowest point on the scale was in fact the point closest to your pre-existing salary or not- if it is- you go on the lowest point of the scale- if not- you go onto the point closest to your pre-existing salary- without taking a cut.

A promotion in the public sector does not mean you get a large pay rise........ In some cases your terms may in fact be worse (for example SOs get 1 day more annual leave than EOs get........)....... Lots of little anomalies like this........

The_Conductor

chris_john_lane wrote: »

I think I will accept the job and try argue my case based on my experience

Go for it. I know several people who successfully argued the point- unfortunately alongside a significant number of people, myself and my wife included- who failed to convince them.

You have nothing to loose though- but make sure you accept the post- pending mutual agreement on an appropriate point of the salary scale- don't just sign the contract they send you- you will need to modify it- noting that you're accepting the post- but disputing the starting salary.

Make sure you accept the post no matter what you do- if you dispute the starting salary- without accepting the post- you'll have turned down the post- its how it works.......

chris_john_lane

How do I modify their contract?

The_Conductor wrote: »

Go for it. I know several people who successfully argued the point- unfortunately alongside a significant number of people, myself and my wife included- who failed to convince them.

You have nothing to loose though- but make sure you accept the post- pending mutual agreement on an appropriate point of the salary scale- don't just sign the contract they send you- you will need to modify it- noting that you're accepting the post- but disputing the starting salary.

Make sure you accept the post no matter what you do- if you dispute the starting salary- without accepting the post- you'll have turned down the post- its how it works.......

ezra_pound

chris_john_lane wrote: »

How do I modify their contract?

You don't need to modify any contract. You simply seek incremental credit.

ezra_pound

Was the work you were doing before the same as being a social worker?

chris_john_lane

so do I include a letter requesting this along with the signed contract?

ezra_pound wrote: »

You don't need to modify any contract. You simply seek incremental credit.

The_Conductor

chris_john_lane wrote: »

so do I include a letter requesting this along with the signed contract?

Yes- however I would annotate the contract drawing attention to your request in the attached letter.

ezra_pound

You should download the HSE terms and conditions of employment PDF. The last part deals with incremental credit. From reading through it I wouldn't be sure that you will get credit. It's not clear in your case - unless you were actually working as a social worker.

Good luck. I'd say a few years back you'd have got it sorted but in this day and age you'll be lucky to get rules bent in your favour.

chris_john_lane

This question probably isn't for here but it relates to the job I've been offered in the public sector.

I've annual leave booked in my current position (flights booked). What's the situation starting a new job, will they give me the time off? It's over the Christmas period also!!

ezra_pound

chris_john_lane wrote: »

This question probably isn't for here but it relates to the job I've been offered in the public sector.

I've annual leave booked in my current position (flights booked). What's the situation starting a new job, will they give me the time off? It's over the Christmas period also!!

What date do you start your new PS job?

chris_john_lane

They only sent me out the contract on Friday. I state on the 13th

ezra_pound wrote: »

What date do you start your new PS job?

ezra_pound

Most likely you'll be given your pro rata leave allowance for 2014 and then your full leave for 2015.

So you'll be working at least 2 months in 14 so you'll get at least one sixth of your 2014 leave I.e. min 3.5 /4 days based on 21 days leave per annum. Then you'll get full leave for 2015.

It sounds like your holiday may span both years.

BUT

some public sector employers including many civil service organisations don't run annual leave January to December. They often do the old year of April start or even possibly October start!

So for April start

Your initial leave would presumably be 5/12ths or so of your normal leave up until April 2015.

This is making lots of presumptions of how your employers he does things!

Edit: either way you should have enough leave to take your holiday! Main issue is ensuring you book the time off asap etc.

chris_john_lane

Yes the annual leave year runs from January to December

ezra_pound wrote: »

Most likely you'll be given your pro rata leave allowance for 2014 and then your full leave for 2015.

So you'll be working at least 2 months in 14 so you'll get at least one sixth of your 2014 leave I.e. min 3.5 /4 days based on 21 days leave per annum. Then you'll get full leave for 2015.

It sounds like your holiday may span both years.

BUT

some public sector employers including many civil service organisations don't run annual leave January to December. They often do the old year of April start or even possibly October start!

So for April start

Your initial leave would presumably be 5/12ths or so of your normal leave up until April 2015.

This is making lots of presumptions of how your employers he does things!

Edit: either way you should have enough leave to take your holiday! Main issue is ensuring you book the time off asap etc.

chris_john_lane

This is the response to my email questions.

1. Salary is the first point on the RCW salary scale which is currently
€29698
2. Unless your are currently working in the Public Sector not funded by the
government you are placed on the first point
3. The salary is not negotiable
4. The hours are based on a 39 hours per week currently the roster is two
days on three days off three days on etc., shift range from 13 hours, 10
hours,
5. No sleepovers are no longer required
6. A secure unit allowance of € 2195.81 is paid yearly, other allowances
would be Sunday, and public holiday premium allowance
7. The Employee handbook is currently being updated, through negotiations
with the IMPACT union and will be signed off by the Board of Management on
the 8th October, I hope to have it available for the 13th October

The_Conductor wrote: »

Yes- however I would annotate the contract drawing attention to your request in the attached letter.