Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Finally the Irish Justice system has gotten something right.

2

Comments

  • #32
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Sounds like it was just declined on the basis of a technicality. They'll apply again, it'll be approved, and order will be restored to the universe.


  • #33
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    Dave! wrote: »
    Sounds like it was just declined on the basis of a technicality. They'll apply again, it'll be approved, and order will be restored to the universe.

    Just NO.


  • #34
    CastingCouch
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭CastingCouch


    Fair play.


  • #35
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    Edward Snowden has obviously revealed the Prism thingy and the world is outraged at the USA. Fair enough.

    The Brits have been at this eavesdropping lark for years with Echelon, except my limited understanding is that it had to do with phone calls. I'm not saying that it's right. It's not. It's completely unacceptable.

    Despite that fact that what the USA has done is unacceptable, do people not see that it is also wrong that Snowden has informed on his own country?

    If somebody is working to assist the defence of their country, shouldn't they keep their mouths shut and attempt to use proper channels to protest, or simply resign if they can't agree with what's going on?

    Even in Ireland, Civil Servants have to sign Official Secrets Act declarations. Maybe not all of them, I don't know.

    I think that Snowden did wrong by his own country.


  • #36
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    We're just trying to lure him over so that when he gets off the plane - BAM!
    We knock the traitorous mo-fo upside the head, shackle him, drive him over to the Google offices, call up the American ambassador, get them to come over, Enda's gets photo-op with him standing with foot planted on his head like a big-game hunter as he's handed back.
    It's going to be beautiful.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    The Mustard wrote: »
    Edward Snowden has obviously revealed the Prism thingy and the world is outraged at the USA. Fair enough.

    The Brits have been at this eavesdropping lark for years with Echelon, except my limited understanding is that it had to do with phone calls. I'm not saying that it's right. It's not. It's completely unacceptable.

    Despite that fact that what the USA has done is unacceptable, do people not see that it is also wrong that Snowden has informed on his own country?

    If somebody is working to assist the defence of their country, shouldn't they keep their mouths shut and attempt to use proper channels to protest, or simply resign if they can't agree with what's going on?

    Even in Ireland, Civil Servants have to sign Official Secrets Act declarations. Maybe not all of them, I don't know.

    I think that Snowden did wrong by his own country.

    Ehh, "the country" is more than the government and security agencies. Doesn't he also have an obligation to the citizens of the country, and indeed the world, to let them know that they're being spied on without their knowledge or consent? Seems to me that keeping your mouth shut is what would be doing wrong by your country.


  • #38
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    The Mustard wrote: »
    Edward Snowden has obviously revealed the Prism thingy and the world is outraged at the USA. Fair enough.

    The Brits have been at this eavesdropping lark for years with Echelon, except my limited understanding is that it had to do with phone calls. I'm not saying that it's right. It's not. It's completely unacceptable.

    Despite that fact that what the USA has done is unacceptable, do people not see that it is also wrong that Snowden has informed on his own country?

    If somebody is working to assist the defence of their country, shouldn't they keep their mouths shut and attempt to use proper channels to protest    , or simply resign if they can't agree with what's going on?

    Even in Ireland, Civil Servants have to sign Official Secrets Act declarations. Maybe not all of them, I don't know.

    I think that Snowden did wrong by his own country.

    Firstly, his release of this information was targeted to US citizens of which is more important than the corrupt government they have now and is, and was, the correct approach.

    The government of the united states are already traitors to the US citizen in my opinion spying on their own people, all snowden done was educate and inform his people of what it's corrupt government was doing to it's people.

    I'd shake the mans hand if i ever bumped into him.


  • #39
    Cienciano
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,123 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Better to die on your feet than live on your knees:rolleyes:

    It depends. Hypothetically, imagine Obama or the US Senete could pass a bill that closed any loophole that made Ireland an attractive place for american companies to base offices. They give Enda a call and say they'll pass it if we give Snowden asylum. Don't, and things will stay the same. Is it really worth it?


  • #40
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    To be honest, I didn't think that too many people were going to agree with me.

    I just wondered if anybody else did.

    I can see that Snowden may have done what might popularly be agreed to be the right thing.

    I may have a particularly tribal outlook when it comes to these things compared to others, I don't know. I may not have a million principles, but among those that I have is loyalty to friends, family, work colleagues and clients/customers.

    I can accept that what he did was for what he regarded as the greater good of mankind. But I can't agree with what he did because he informed on his own country. I can't accept that.

    I would imagine that most of the world's powers are up to the same thing. Of course it is wrong. But if you don't agree with it, don't join the intelligence industry or the Army or anything to do with defence. These people are not Care Bears. They are there to defend their country.


  • #41
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    The Mustard wrote: »
    Edward Snowden has obviously revealed the Prism thingy and the world is outraged at the USA. Fair enough.

    The Brits have been at this eavesdropping lark for years with Echelon, except my limited understanding is that it had to do with phone calls. I'm not saying that it's right. It's not. It's completely unacceptable.

    Despite that fact that what the USA has done is unacceptable, do people not see that it is also wrong that Snowden has informed on his own country?

    If somebody is working to assist the defence of their country, shouldn't they keep their mouths shut and attempt to use proper channels to protest, or simply resign if they can't agree with what's going on?

    Even in Ireland, Civil Servants have to sign Official Secrets Act declarations. Maybe not all of them, I don't know.

    I think that Snowden did wrong by his own country.

    I can see what you are saying.

    But he is a patriot, saving Americans from their own government when it crosses too many lines. See Thomas Paine.


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    Saab Ed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Saab Ed


    Riddle101 wrote: »
    If he's passing through, to get to South America then I think he could do it. If the court denied the arrest warrant, then he should be allowed to pass through. However, as far as living here goes it would be a big mistake. Not just for Snowden, but us as well for granting asylum.

    My bollocks it would. Money runs America and too many influential people might be pissed off if we get fcuked around too, never forget that. They run money through Ireland like water down a river. We'd get a very public drubbing down and that's it.


  • #43
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    The Mustard wrote: »
    To be honest, I didn't think that too many people were going to agree with me.

    I just wondered if anybody else did.

    I can see that Snowden may have done what might popularly be agreed to be the right thing.

    I may have a particularly tribal outlook when it comes to these things compared to others, I don't know. I may not have a million principles, but among those that I have is loyalty to friends, family, work colleagues and clients/customers.

    I can accept that what he did was for what he regarded as the greater good of mankind. But I can't agree with what he did because he informed on his own country. I can't accept that.

    I would imagine that most of the world's powers are up to the same thing. Of course it is wrong. But if you don't agree with it, don't join the intelligence industry or the Army or anything to do with defence. These people are not Care Bears. They are there to defend their country.

    I would wholeheartedly agree with you if the cia and the police werent increasingly militarised.


  • #44
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,945 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Frank Black wrote: »
    We're just trying to lure him over so that when he gets off the plane - BAM!
    We knock the traitorous mo-fo upside the head, shackle him, drive him over to the Google offices, call up the American ambassador, get them to come over, Enda's gets photo-op with him standing with foot planted on his head like a big-game hunter as he's handed back.
    It's going to be beautiful.
    Enda at the airport with a bowl of shamrock "cead meeeela failte Eddy" "get em in the bag" then off to guantanamo


  • #45
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,945 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Shatter has already told them to reapply, the judge practically told them it was a minor technicality, which he could have turned a blind eye to.


  • #46
    coolhull
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49,731 ✭✭✭✭coolhull


    Old and grey wrote: »
    If the US refuse to deport Drumm and Dunne back here then we should grant Snowden asylum, after all they are harbouring two of our biggest crooks!
    There is no warrant out for Drumm or Dunne, and I doubt if the Government wants one. Too many skeletons in the cupboard.......


  • #47
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    I can see what you are saying.

    But he is a patriot, saving Americans from their own government when it crosses too many lines. See Thomas Paine.

    Just googled him so I have a snapshot rather than anything in depth.

    I wasn't aware of his standpoint against tyranny.

    Interesting view from a man who is regarded as a US patriot.


  • #48
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    The Mustard wrote: »
    To be honest, I didn't think that too many people were going to agree with me.

    I just wondered if anybody else did.

    I can see that Snowden may have done what might popularly be agreed to be the right thing.

    I may have a particularly tribal outlook when it comes to these things compared to others, I don't know. I may not have a million principles, but among those that I have is loyalty to friends, family, work colleagues and clients/customers.

    I can accept that what he did was for what he regarded as the greater good of mankind. But I can't agree with what he did because he informed on his own country. I can't accept that.

    I would imagine that most of the world's powers are up to the same thing. Of course it is wrong. But if you don't agree with it, don't join the intelligence industry or the Army or anything to do with defence. These people are not Care Bears. They are there to defend their country.

    I would say, what he did was inform his country's citizens on a spying operation that is being used against it's people. Logic comes to mind.


  • #49
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    zenno wrote: »
    I would say, what he did was inform his country's citizens on a spying operation that is being used against it's people. Logic comes to mind.

    Yes, he did. And considering that what the USA is doing is wrong, there is certainly a strong argument to be made in his favour.

    He also betrayed his own country and broke US law to reveal the information.

    He gave up his own country, his own employers, which is something that I think is wrong for a person in a position of responsibility regarding national defence.

    Whether or not the public is glad that the news has broken, I don't think that it was Snowden's place to decide to give up the information. I think that a person working as a soldier or working somehow connected to national defence has to do his job rather than sacrificing his duty in favour of his own personal beliefs.

    I am curious to know what US citizens think of what he did.


  • #50
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    The Mustard wrote: »
    Yes, he did. And considering that what the USA is doing is wrong, there is certainly a strong argument to be made in his favour.

    He also betrayed his own country and broke US law to reveal the information.

    He gave up his own country, his own employers, which is something that I think is wrong for a person in a position of responsibility regarding national defence.

    Whether or not the public is glad that the news has broken, I don't think that it was Snowden's place to decide to give up the information. I think that a person working as a soldier or working somehow connected to national defence has to do his job rather than sacrificing his duty in favour of his own personal beliefs.

    I am curious to know what US citizens think of what he did.

    He didn't break any law whatsoever. What law did he break, what crime did he unjustly do ? As was said by the Judge "again".....

    Judge Colm Mac Eochaidh refused the request for an arrest warrant on the grounds that no information had been given by the US authorities about where the alleged offences took place.

    The ruling also stated that the decision was taken because the US failed to show where the theft of government property took place or what had been stolen.
    I don't think that it was Snowden's place to decide to give up the information

    Someone had to do it so why not himself.


  • #51
    hfallada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭hfallada


    Ireland wanted an American citizen arrested and sent to Ireland as he helped in a assisted suicide of a depressed women. The us state decided they didn't want to grant it as assisted suicide was legal in that state. I finally glad a court is showing america that extraditions can't system where America gets people they want, but never hand over anyone


  • Advertisement
  • #52
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    zenno wrote: »
    He didn't break any law whatsoever. What law did he break, what crime did he unjustly do ? As was said by the Judge "again".....

    Judge Colm Mac Eochaidh refused the request for an arrest warrant on the grounds that no information had been given by the US authorities about where the alleged offences took place.

    The ruling also stated that the decision was taken because the US failed to show where the theft of government property took place or what had been stolen.

    You are technically correct, of course.

    Innocent until proved guilty and all that.

    But do you really believe that he has not broken US law in this case?

    Honest Injuns now, Zenno.


  • #53
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    The Mustard wrote: »
    You are technically correct, of course.

    Innocent until proved guilty and all that.

    But do you really believe that he has not broken US law in this case?

    Honest Injuns now, Zenno.

    To answer the question forwarded... I will agree to say, he broke an oath with the national security agency as part of the united states government, but he did not break any law regarding informing his country folk of the threat that affects them.


  • #54
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    zenno wrote: »
    To answer the question forwarded... I will agree to say, he broke an oath with the national security agency as part of the united states government, but he did not break any law regarding informing his country folk of the threat that affects them.

    It seems that the US authorities disagree with you:
    The criminal complaint against Snowden that was released cited 18 U.S.C. 641 Theft of Government Property, 18 U.S.C. 793(d) Unauthorized Communication of National Defense Information, and 18 U.S.C. 798(a)(3) Willful Communication of Classified Intelligence Information to an Unauthorized Person; the two latter charges fall under the Espionage Act for “giving national defenseinformation to someone without a security clearance and revealing classified information about communications intelligence,”


  • #55
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    The Mustard wrote: »
    It seems that the US authorities disagree with you:
    18 U.S.C. 798(a)(3) Willful Communication of Classified Intelligence Information to an Unauthorized Person

    And the unauthorised person/persons is it's own citizens. Look all i'm saying is that snowden informed his people to the fact that their private information is being used without a data protection act in place to protect them and allow them some decent privacy.

    It's wrong for a dodgy government to spy on it's own citizens and the rest of the world in a paranoid manner. I'm just glad he exposed his dodgy damaged government/government run agency to it's citizens.

    My opinion only.

    The citizens come first, the government comes second as they are servants to the citizens, supposed to be anyway.


  • #56
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    zenno wrote: »
    And the unauthorised person/persons is it's own citizens. Look all i'm saying is that snowden informed his people to the fact that their private information is being used without a data protection act in place to protect them and allow them some decent privacy.
    He didn't just inform his fellow Americans. The information has been released to everybody, to include the Chinese, the Russians, and the North Koreans. That is fairly undesirable from a US standpoint.

    Snowden has recently been in Chinese-owned Hong Kong, before he flew to Moscow.
    zenno wrote: »
    It's wrong for a dodgy government to spy on it's own citizens and the rest of the world in a paranoid manner. I'm just glad he exposed his dodgy damaged government/government run agency to it's citizens.

    My opinion only.
    Good point, well made.
    The citizens come first, the government comes second as they are servants to the citizens, supposed to be anyway.
    Yes, but I don't think that any government can carry out an effective national defence programme if it tolerates intelligence leaks of this nature.

    I will not try to argue that the USA was right in this, because it was not. But I still say that Snowden was also wrong.


  • #57
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    THe NSA is breaking the highest law, the Constution. The espionage acts are what is breaking the law.

    High time they actually came out and said what law Snowden has broken. Probably a secret law, made by a secret court, the FISA court. Don't you love mysterious legislation?


  • #58
    WilyCoyote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭WilyCoyote


    Purely hypothetical at the moment.


  • #59
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    If the guy came here the US would just fly a jet in and pick him up. We're a small country with no power or influence and they'd walk on us. Remember the Irish/American vote has become the white middle/working class, Paul Ryan (Rep VP Can) didn't even bother with it in the last election. It's completely diluted at this stage.

    They humour us to an extent but they'd fcuk us over in a heartbeat if we did anything to their disliking.


  • #60
    just_be_nice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58 ✭✭just_be_nice


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    If the guy came here the US would just fly a jet in and pick him up. We're a small country with no power or influence and they'd walk on us. Remember the Irish/American vote has become the white middle/working class, Paul Ryan (Rep VP Can) didn't even bother with it in the last election. It's completely diluted at this stage.

    They humour us to an extent but they'd fcuk us over in a heartbeat if we did anything to their disliking.

    Ireland is still part of Europe so it's very unlikely that they would walk into a European country and take someone out without permission.

    They have already annoyed a lot of people and they gotta tread carefully for while.

    Snowdon's Dad made possibly one of the most ludicrous statements I have ever heard in my life! (way back on June 17 while jr was still in Hong Kong)
    You know, I would rather my son be a prisoner in the U.S. than a free man in a country that did not have ... the freedoms that are protected" in the U.S., he said.

    FOX


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    The Mustard wrote: »
    He didn't just inform his fellow Americans. The information has been released to everybody, to include the Chinese, the Russians, and the North Koreans. That is fairly undesirable from a US standpoint.

    Snowden has recently been in Chinese-owned Hong Kong, before he flew to Moscow.


    Good point, well made.


    Yes, but I don't think that any government can carry out an effective national defence programme if it tolerates intelligence leaks of this nature.

    I will not try to argue that the USA was right in this, because it was not. But I still say that Snowden was also wrong.

    The problem is people are losing belief in this national defence programme, because it's turning on its own people, in effect making enemies out of its own citizens.

    Sure, the jihadist, etc, but they have already won, if our own government is turning towards fascism on its own people.

    This is not a national defence program, this is contempt for your citizens.


Advertisement