new rules on the way boys and girls

Andrew_Doran

Bruthal wrote: »

Fairness and safety are zero to do with it, its all about tax and revenue.

Absolutely, and if you read all of the documents from the CER consultation process that becomes very clear.

The reason the CER gives for excluding the homeowner is NOT safety. It is because, to paraphrase, "they might hire a cheap spark and then lie to a RECI/ECCSA inspector and say they did all the work themselves". They might not grease the right palms more like.

Andrew_Doran

mikehammer67 wrote: »

a lot of people claim to be competent in electrical work

non-qualified people etc.

i don't believe it myself but....lets see:)

I have seen plenty of dodgy DIY electrical work by have-a-go types but DIYers are not all the bumbling idiots you think. Some have a good grasp of the regs and theory, even though the parochial assumption in this country is that people should stay firmly in their box and stick to what they do for a living.

mikeoneill893 wrote: »

but i suspect the clamps will have to be put on threads where diyer's are seeking instructions

.. instructions on doing one run of CT100/CAT6 for a satellite receiver by the look of of the statutory instrument just published. 3 years, €15,000 euro.

mikerodgers96

Andrew_Doran wrote: »

I have seen plenty of dodgy DIY electrical work by have-a-go types but DIYers are not all the bumbling idiots you think. Some have a good grasp of the regs and theory, even though the parochial assumption in this country is that people should stay firmly in their box and stick to what they do for a living.

i have never known any diy person that was competent electrically

usually they don't know what they don't know and think they have it right

and i have never heard of diyer's with a good grasp of regs

Bruthal

frankmul wrote: »

I think that 2011 has made some valid points, prior to this was there any legal route to follow to charge a jack of all trade who puts in bad wiring and causes property damage or worse?

A qualified electrician is not a jack of all trades, yet now is treated like one.

mikerodgers96

surprising they haven't considered commercial restrictions

for instance i know a complete chancer who was paid to carry out electrical work in a large school

and this is a very common issue in schools ime

frankmul

Bruthal wrote: »

A qualified electrician is not a jack of all trades, yet now is treated like one.

I never meant to imply that an electrician was a jack of all trades but there is a lot of people apart than electrician or even apprentice electricians doing electrical work. I feel and hope that this new law is aimed at those people. The kind that if you mention wiring rules, would not have a clue what you were taking about.

mikerodgers96

frankmul wrote: »

I never meant to imply that an electrician was a jack of all trades but there is a lot of people apart than electrician or even apprentice electricians doing electrical work. I feel and hope that this new law is aimed at those people. The kind that if you mention wiring rules, would not have a clue what you were taking about.

i'm all for equal opportunities

if self-certification were scrapped and we had thorough inspection of new work

i believe the diyer's should be allowed compete

i know how it would end though

Bruthal

frankmul wrote: »

I never meant to imply that an electrician was a jack of all trades but there is a lot of people apart than electrician or even apprentice electricians doing electrical work. I feel and hope that this new law is aimed at those people. The kind that if you mention wiring rules, would not have a clue what you were taking about.

I know you were not saying an electrician is a jack of all trades. But these rules wont be taking that onboard. This is not aimed at the journeymen, DIY and have a go people. It is simply to eliminate all but the registered from direct electrical work, for revenue reasons.

mikerodgers96

Bruthal wrote: »

I know you were not saying an electrician is a jack of all trades. But these rules wont be taking that onboard. This is not aimed at the journeymen, DIY and have a go people. It is simply to eliminate all but the registered from direct electrical work, for revenue reasons.

rubbish

Bruthal

mikerodgers96 wrote: »

rubbish

Yea

chrismon

mikerodgers96 wrote: »

i'm all for equal opportunities

if self-certification were scrapped and we had thorough inspection of new work

i believe the diyer's should be allowed compete

i know how it would end though

You think diyers should be allowed to have work certified?
Wasted 4 years of my life doing an apprenticeship so.

Bruthal

chrismon wrote: »

You think diyers should be allowed to have work certified?
Wasted 4 years of my life doing an apprenticeship so.

Well if they were able to do work which was up to standard, why not?

But diyer`s are unlikely to do it properly at all.

mikerodgers96

chrismon wrote: »

You think diyers should be allowed to have work certified?
Wasted 4 years of my life doing an apprenticeship so.

if they're good enough and the work passes

why not

it won't happen though contrary to what some of them believe

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

Fairness and safety are zero to do with it, its all about tax and revenue.

So what?
The reasons for it are irrelevent.

Just like water rates, VAT and property tax, there is no point in taking it personally.

seaniefr

mikerodgers96 wrote: »

if they're good enough and the work passes

why not

it won't happen though contrary to what some of them believe

This would make a mockery of the whole apprenticeship system.!
or are we talking about electricians who haven't done their trade exams?

Here's an idea-why not recognise the fact that some electricians carry out the odd nixer and allow for it but let them be registered in a part time capacity and pay tax on it the same as any other earnings maybe?

2011

seaniefr wrote: »

Here's an idea-why not recognise the fact that some electricians carry out the odd nixer and allow for it but let them be registered in a part time capacity and pay tax on it the same as any other earnings maybe?

You can do this at present by becoming a registered electrical contractor.
By doing this and paying tax would make you 100% legal and able to do as much or as little as you like.

seaniefr

2011 wrote: »

You can do this at present by becoming a registered electrical contractor.
By doing this and paying tax would make you 100% legal and able to do as much or as little as you like.

Am well aware of the requirements to becoming an REC this is about people that are in full or maybe part time employment and are competent to do the job and need to supplement their wages

mikerodgers96

2011 wrote: »

You can do this at present by becoming a registered electrical contractor.
By doing this and paying tax would make you 100% legal and able to do as much or as little as you like.

you do know that registered guys work off the books too.......

and the non-registered guys may be self-employed and declaring

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

So what?
The reasons for it are irrelevent.

Yea, once you say it, it must be so.

Just like water rates, VAT and property tax, there is no point in taking it personally.

Stating the obvious fact is nothing to do with taking anything personally.

Telling people not to take something personal which may affect them personally, is well, a bit silly.

Comparing criminalising qualified people for doing something they are qualified to do, and now they are suddenly not qualified to do, with property tax, is farcical.

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

Yea, once you say it, it must be so.


Stating the obvious fact is nothing to do with taking anything personally.

Telling people not to take something personal which may affect them personally, is well, a bit silly.

Comparing criminalising qualified people for doing something they are qualified to do, and now they are suddenly not qualified to do, with property tax, is farcical.

The point has been well made that it is a revenue generating exercise, constantly restating this will not change the fact.
Time to move on.

2011

mikerodgers96 wrote: »

you do know that registered guys work off the books too.......

and the non-registered guys may be self-employed and declaring

Yes I know.

2011

seaniefr wrote: »

Am well aware of the requirements to becoming an REC this is about people that are in full or maybe part time employment and are competent to do the job and need to supplement their wages

What is it that you are hoping for?

That the government will permit people to do nixers i.e. work tax free?

Or that CER will decide that restricted works should not apply to "people that are competent" that need to supplement their wages?

Or that RECI or the ECSSA will go against CER and allow non registered electricians to issue completion certs?

None of this will ever happen. If it did it would be quite unfair as it would make it very hard for registered electrical contractors to compete.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

What is it that you are hoping for?

That the government will permit people to do nixers i.e. work tax free?

Or that CER will decide that restricted works should not apply to "people that are competent" that need to supplement their wages?

Or that RECI or the ECSSA will go against CER and allow non registered electricians to issue completion certs?

None of this will ever happen. If it did it would be quite unfair as it would make it very hard for registered electrical contractors to compete.

So you will call an electrical contractor if you need to change an mcb in your DB then?

seaniefr

2011 wrote: »

What is it that you are hoping for?

That the government will permit people to do nixers i.e. work tax free?

Or that CER will decide that restricted works should not apply to "people that are competent" that need to supplement their wages?

Or that RECI or the ECSSA will go against CER and allow non registered electricians to issue completion certs?

None of this will ever happen. If it did it would be quite unfair as it would make it very hard for registered electrical contractors to compete.

Well, lets look at it from this point of view, supposing we are to go with what you are inferring here and let's say that ALL electricians that are currently doing nixers or whatever should register with the ECSSA or RECI what then happens to the regular contractors pool of work when you have guys who have to get work in what is going to happen to your pricing structure? Is that not a race to the bottom?

seaniefr

2011 wrote: »

What is it that you are hoping for?

That the government will permit people to do nixers i.e. work tax free?

Or that CER will decide that restricted works should not apply to "people that are competent" that need to supplement their wages?

Or that RECI or the ECSSA will go against CER and allow non registered electricians to issue completion certs?

None of this will ever happen. If it did it would be quite unfair as it would make it very hard for registered electrical contractors to compete.

Please read my previous post on this I Advocating registering electricians who do nixers to let them PAY tax but to do so on an ad-hoc basis in the hope that the revenue will come out of This and it will be a mostly win-win situation. If they register they will still have to get PL, EL etc will just make it feasible financially for them to do so and restrict to to JUST electricians and not DIY'ers that is what I am hoping for by giving this alternative approach to this idiotic legislation. If you are taxing the hell out of someone you have to give them an avenue to earn more money right? Does anyone se the sense in this approach?

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

So you will call an electrical contractor if you need to change an mcb in your DB then?

What I would do is not relevant as it will change nothing.

But seeing as you ask I have always done all of my own wiring in my own home and will continue to do so.

Just because I am stating what the law is does not mean that I agree 100% with it.

2011

seaniefr wrote: »

Well, lets look at it from this point of view, supposing we are to go with what you are inferring here and let's say that ALL electricians that are currently doing nixers or whatever should register with the ECSSA or RECI what then happens to the regular contractors pool of work when you have guys who have to get work in what is going to happen to your pricing structure? Is that not a race to the bottom?

This is not my position, it is the position that the government has brought about.

Yes, it is a race to the bottom and has been for some time.

frankmul

I think that nixers will continue, we are not a great nation for staying inside the law, but the person doing the nixers will change. Nixer will now be taken on by electricians who know how to do the job right, once finished, there will be no issues with it, no risk of any comeback. The day of "sure it will be grand", will be over because if there is any issue, the consequences now will be bigger. The risk for the local handyperson doing wiring will be too high.

Hitchens

The CER when defining Controlled Electrical Work recognised that a certain amount of Do-It-Yourself (or “DIY”) electrical installation work is a feature of electrical installations in domestic premises in this country and generally involves “like for like” replacements of switches, sockets, lighting fittings and/or additions to an existing circuit. This work must also be in compliance with the National Wiring Rules. However, Minor Electrical Works are currently outside the scope of Controlled Electrical Works and also, under the definition, outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works.

The CER is of the view, having given consideration to the responses received to its consultation on this issue, that Minor Electrical Works do not impose a significant safety risk on the consumer, and therefore has decided they will be exempt from the scope of Controlled and Restricted Electrical Works. Additionally, restricting Minor Electrical Works would achieve very limited public safety benefits, whilst imposing a disproportionate cost on customers.

Bruthal

Hitchens wrote: »

The CER when defining Controlled Electrical Work recognised that a certain amount of Do-It-Yourself (or “DIY”) electrical installation work is a feature of electrical installations in domestic premises in this country and generally involves “like for like” replacements of switches, sockets, lighting fittings and/or additions to an existing circuit. This work must also be in compliance with the National Wiring Rules. However, Minor Electrical Works are currently outside the scope of Controlled Electrical Works and also, under the definition, outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works.

The CER is of the view, having given consideration to the responses received to its consultation on this issue, that Minor Electrical Works do not impose a significant safety risk on the consumer, and therefore has decided they will be exempt from the scope of Controlled and Restricted Electrical Works. Additionally, restricting Minor Electrical Works would achieve very limited public safety benefits, whilst imposing a disproportionate cost on customers.

Stopping qualified electricians from having access to DB`s will also achieve very limited safety benefits compared to registered contractors doing the same.

I have fixed a few registered contractor issues myself in houses, issues brought about by contractors full priority being to wire the house as fast as possible, rather than wire it well, by people other than the registered person themselves.